Cleaner/dog walker, how to pay?
Discussion
Hello 
We are currently paying our dog walker a not insignificant amount of money to come to our house twice a day and walk our two dogs.
We were thinking about getting a cleaner too but then had a thought.
We would like to pay someone to come to our house at 10am, walk the dogs till 11am, do a bit of house work (hoover/iorn/dust/mop), sit on the sofa with cup of tea and watch TV with dogs for a couple of hours, walk the dogs again 2.30-3.00 and then leave.
This would be great for someone retired or with kids at school.
The issue is, how to pay them, would they have to be a "sole trader" and then send me an invoice once a month?
Would I have to work out the pay on a day rate, or hourly, or monthly?
We don’t want to "employ" them for obvious reasons.
considering the nature of the work (sitting on sofa house sitting for half the time), are they subject to minimum wage entitlement?
Thanks
We are currently paying our dog walker a not insignificant amount of money to come to our house twice a day and walk our two dogs.
We were thinking about getting a cleaner too but then had a thought.
We would like to pay someone to come to our house at 10am, walk the dogs till 11am, do a bit of house work (hoover/iorn/dust/mop), sit on the sofa with cup of tea and watch TV with dogs for a couple of hours, walk the dogs again 2.30-3.00 and then leave.
This would be great for someone retired or with kids at school.
The issue is, how to pay them, would they have to be a "sole trader" and then send me an invoice once a month?
Would I have to work out the pay on a day rate, or hourly, or monthly?
We don’t want to "employ" them for obvious reasons.
considering the nature of the work (sitting on sofa house sitting for half the time), are they subject to minimum wage entitlement?
Thanks
egor110 said:
Surely if there 'sitting on the sofa house sitting half the time' they are actually working as you've taken them on to house sit.
Do you think security guards only get paid for the times there patrolling a building?
I didnt say they were not working, I fully class the full 10-3 as "working"Do you think security guards only get paid for the times there patrolling a building?
However, as an example, house sitters dont get paid a proper income to house sit.
Its a genuine question I think, I wouldnt expect to be paid full wage to read a magazine infront of the TV.
They can even do some self employed work on their laptop for all I care.
KFC said:
Piglet said:
You would be looking for this person to be self employed, they can choose to work for whatever rate they want so minimum wage doesn't come into it. They would be responsible for their own NI/Tax as necessary.
You need to find someone and see what rate they will work for. I pay my current cleaner £10 an hour, the last one was a bit more. Mine is also going to do some dog walking and sitting for me later in the year, I'm expecting to pay her the same rate if I'm expecting her to be sitting at my house as it's all time that she can't be earning money elsewhere or doing her own thing. If she's got my dog at hers then I'd expect a day rate as she can get on and do other things.
As usual, some of the tax advice being doled out on PH is absolutely horrific You need to find someone and see what rate they will work for. I pay my current cleaner £10 an hour, the last one was a bit more. Mine is also going to do some dog walking and sitting for me later in the year, I'm expecting to pay her the same rate if I'm expecting her to be sitting at my house as it's all time that she can't be earning money elsewhere or doing her own thing. If she's got my dog at hers then I'd expect a day rate as she can get on and do other things.
Any idea where to start? happy to pay for someone qualified to give me a straight answer.
KFC said:
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The chances are if you pay some retired old lady £50 a week cash you're going to get away with it. But its definitely not the correct way to do it. So either do it via someone you trust, or do it legitimately. Bear in mind the trust part... you might trust that nice old lady 3 doors down but that trust can rapidly vanish when your dog pulls her over and she breaks her leg whilst working and then asks you for details on your public liability insurance. Or when the dog gets run over by a car and it all comes out it was out there with an undeclared employee, etc etc
I don’t see why it should be a problem (but know it is) as despite me being the only client they will be working as a sole trader and filling out a tax return/paying tax exactly the same way as if she had 2 clients, which seems fine and legitimate.sidekickdmr said:
Seems silly that they are happy to do it this way, I'm happy to pay them this way but regardless, it might not be allowed.
In what way is it silly ? Of course you and the dog walker would be happy to do it, its a simple tax dodge which leave you both better off. If both sides are happy to do it, should I be allowed to pay a plumber in undeclared cash ? Or pay a roofer to work with no safety equipment to get it £30 cheaper ?The chances are if you pay some retired old lady £50 a week cash you're going to get away with it. But its definitely not the correct way to do it. So either do it via someone you trust, or do it legitimately. Bear in mind the trust part... you might trust that nice old lady 3 doors down but that trust can rapidly vanish when your dog pulls her over and she breaks her leg whilst working and then asks you for details on your public liability insurance. Or when the dog gets run over by a car and it all comes out it was out there with an undeclared employee, etc etc
Im not talking £50 a week for some old dear, im talking about £600 a month for someone decent and this will probably be their only job.
Why is everything so complex?
Can someone just explain to me why she cant just be a sole trader (self employed), send me a weekly invoice for £150, paid weekly via cheque or bank xfer.
If she decides to have other clients outside of the 10-3 she is free too, none of my concern how many clients she decides to have.
Can someone just explain to me why she cant just be a sole trader (self employed), send me a weekly invoice for £150, paid weekly via cheque or bank xfer.
If she decides to have other clients outside of the 10-3 she is free too, none of my concern how many clients she decides to have.
The Taxman said:
As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:
Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
Do they have to do the work themselves? - No, then can send someone else if they wish.Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it? - She will have a list of tasks, what and when she does them is up to her.
Can they work a set amount of hours? Yes
Can someone move them from task to task? No, she would manage her own time
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month? Would be a day/week rate paid via invoice
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment? - No
Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense? - Yes
Do they risk their own money? - No
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves? - No
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take? - Yes
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services? - Yes
Do they regularly work for a number of different people? - They can do, could have 10 jobs for all i care
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense? - Yes
KFC said:
Its pretty clear you're just trying to force the answers to fit the answer you want
Try this theoretical one on for size :
You hire the nice old lady in her 60's who lives down the street. Super responsible, and you're perfectly happy with her. She can't be bothered coming one day, so sends her 20 year old grandson to hang out in your house alone instead. Are you going to allow that ?
Via proir agreement I dont see why not, no different to a cleaning company or dog walking company sending a replacement to cover holiday/sick, which they often do.
"She will have a list of tasks, what and when she does them is up to her." - thats completely unrealistic, she's going to have to do it all within a specific time window and will fail this point.
Im not going to tell her what to do when, there will be a list, as long as its done by time I get home I dont mind in what order.
" No, she would manage her own time" - untrue, she's going to be there when you tell her. She's also going to have to do things when you tell her... if you say walk the dogs then do the cleaning she isn't going to be able to say no I'm going to do it the other way around.
Agreed on the hours, but why would I mind if she wants to hoover before taking the dogs out?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take? - Yes - thats not true at all, you're saying she's going to be there for a set number of hours.
Agreed I mis-read that question, the hours will be set
Do they regularly work for a number of different people? - They can do, could have 10 jobs for all i care - no they can't, as they work for you for 4+ hours every day. You know, I know, the tax man knows, you're their sole employer.
Why cant she go and walk someone elses dog at 3.30, or clean someones house on a saturday? Iim not going to stop her.
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense? - Yes - also untrue. You can't ask them to continue to work for free for whatever reason.
If I get home and she has failed to do a job, I would hapilly get her back to do it, the same as anyone else im paying for a service. If i paid an oven cleaner and it wasnt good enough id get them back.
If you want to twist the rules and employ her cash in hand.... just go ahead and do it. Its pointless lying to yourself and to us online to try and justify it
Im not trying to be ackward and honestly appreciate the time your taking helping, just fail to understand how its any different to hiring a cleaner and dog walker from yellow pages.Try this theoretical one on for size :
You hire the nice old lady in her 60's who lives down the street. Super responsible, and you're perfectly happy with her. She can't be bothered coming one day, so sends her 20 year old grandson to hang out in your house alone instead. Are you going to allow that ?
Via proir agreement I dont see why not, no different to a cleaning company or dog walking company sending a replacement to cover holiday/sick, which they often do.
"She will have a list of tasks, what and when she does them is up to her." - thats completely unrealistic, she's going to have to do it all within a specific time window and will fail this point.
Im not going to tell her what to do when, there will be a list, as long as its done by time I get home I dont mind in what order.
" No, she would manage her own time" - untrue, she's going to be there when you tell her. She's also going to have to do things when you tell her... if you say walk the dogs then do the cleaning she isn't going to be able to say no I'm going to do it the other way around.
Agreed on the hours, but why would I mind if she wants to hoover before taking the dogs out?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take? - Yes - thats not true at all, you're saying she's going to be there for a set number of hours.
Agreed I mis-read that question, the hours will be set
Do they regularly work for a number of different people? - They can do, could have 10 jobs for all i care - no they can't, as they work for you for 4+ hours every day. You know, I know, the tax man knows, you're their sole employer.
Why cant she go and walk someone elses dog at 3.30, or clean someones house on a saturday? Iim not going to stop her.
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense? - Yes - also untrue. You can't ask them to continue to work for free for whatever reason.
If I get home and she has failed to do a job, I would hapilly get her back to do it, the same as anyone else im paying for a service. If i paid an oven cleaner and it wasnt good enough id get them back.
If you want to twist the rules and employ her cash in hand.... just go ahead and do it. Its pointless lying to yourself and to us online to try and justify it
Im a contractor, I have worked for the same company 40 hours a week for over 3 1/2 years now. Im self employed and send a monthly invoice made up of day rate x 20 or so.
whats the difference im missing here?
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