Possible redundancy - some advice

[Rick_1138]

Hi folks,

Sadly due to economic issues there are to possibly be redundancies at my work, i was informed that my role was at risk but not actually redundant yet.

I have been made redundant once before in 2008 and that was a case of you are being made redundant, 4 weeks notice etc.

This time it seems there are to be consultations about it, all i know is all suggestions and discussions are open.

I do QHSE and am the only person on site who does it, so possibly being made redundant came as quite a shock as i cover quite a lot and carry out all audits and such on quality and HSE stuff, organise training, control recycling and waste stuff, competency records and all that.

I realise that cuts will be made and that i am not straight out the door just yet but you get worried and start thinking the worst.

However things i thought about talking about in the meeting were my day to day duties that cover the important stuff like management standard controls, supplier audit stuff etc, stuff that requires a qualified person to do and they need for the business.

Technically the role cant actually be made redundant, but i am not naive enough to use that as an excuse.

I was just posting on PH for some tips on this type of situ, we dont have an union here, so its just myself in the meeting, i am allowed someone with me, but no idea who i would take in with me.

Just any tips from the PH bunch on what i should be looking at to put my case forward.

cheers guys

[Rick_1138]

Re above posts, that of course will be my plan, if\once i am made redundant.

I am not actually gone yet, consultation thing is on monday where discussions about whats happening, my suggestions, their suggestions etc are to go ahead.

My latent cynicism tells me this is a show but you never know. Main question is how will they carry out qhse required systems and standards with no qualified HSE person on site, hse contractors arent known for their cheap day rates!

I was more looking for the kind of stuff i should be asking or writing down during this consultation as ive never had one before, last time i was made redundant in 2008 was taken into managers office and told i was being made redundant.

So i know what to do if i get the shove, but this may look at other ways i can be retained also.

I realise its bad for company just now, but hearing about who has redundancy consultation notices too, i wonder if its also a head cutting of folk they're maybe not as happy with. maybe not and im just getting a bit mopy but its not nice after 5 years, excellent audit reviews and never a negative appraisal to be one of the first in line was a bit st tbh

[Rick_1138]

Its something to think about, but i'd be terrified of working as my own boss, mainly as i have no idea about taxation, how pay and invoices work etc.

I would need some re-training also as i am competent to run systems but for implementation you need a bit more.

There's also a health concern, (nothing major) stomach thing but it makes travelling stressful so thats a consideration.

We will see what happens tuesday afternoon and go from there. I am calling Acas this weekend and see what they say.

A friend was in a similar role but offshore, but his whole place went belly up, he is now a postie, but he didnt do some of the system control stuff i did.

Scary biscuits, especially galling as we were planning buying a house in october time

[Rick_1138]

I have just had a cursory view of job sites , but nothing coming up in a hse role, but that was only a quick look.

CV will get updated, and put out to agencies (done this previously after uni and after first redundancy in 2008 and they are actually quite good, if the process is a bit of a pain with some of the bullst at times.

Other option is if nothing is forthcoming in qhse, is this time to retrain, i am early 30's so there's scope, but thats a last resort option i think for now.

I am not one to sit on my hands, work is very important and id like to be in work/ready to go into another role within my period of notice if it comes up.

Redundancy package would be week per year of service i think.

Havign a chat with another guy i kow who has had notice of possible redundancy, basically guy brought in as a development manager for the business has basically spent last few months going through folks work and reviewing stuff and has probably seen some deficiencies in folks work, and instead of some input into areas of improvment, (of which i wont have many as never had previous poor reviews) then its out on the ear, and this consultancy thing is just a waste of time.

Trying not ot be angry or upset at work but christ its hard to sit and carry on knowing my fates already been decided, this is just the layers of wrapping i have to go through to find my 'gift'

Edited by Rick_1138 on Friday 3rd June 10:03

[Rick_1138]

andy-xr said:

I've been made redundant quite a few times, some were genuine, others were a good way of parting company because it just wasnt working out as we'd planned.

The main thing I think is to not take it personally, because at work, it's just business. Business has to move forwards in it's best interests and if that's a leaner version, cool. Hope they get to a point where they can move forwards and do well.

That being said, you are now priority #1, and work, basically, isnt. Negotiate hard on your severance, get a good reference written in as part of the deal. While you've got to do enough in physically being there in order to get the redundancy payout, it's time to start talking to new people. There's nowt the existing company can realistically do about this, and many companies will give you time off for interviews when they've served notice to you. Assuming you arent being redeployed within the company, your main mission now is to get another job.

I've always found that something more positive has come out of every redundancy I've had, even if it's taken a while to see it, it has been there. Sometimes I spend time thinking if x hadnt happened then I wouldnt have done y and I wouldnt have had as much fun/enjoyment/whatever

When looking for new jobs, I've always found it easier to get into something with an intro. Your existing network for example, your existing boss might also know people. Your friends in the industry. These all come before hitting the job sites, because that's a colder intro to make, they dont know you, and you have to get to know them and convince them you're the right guy for the job. It's a personal thing, but I avoid recruiters as much as I can, mainly because they havent been able to make a clean intro to me without it costing me time and money, and havent found anything I wasnt already aware of

I've struggled with a couple of redundnacues because it's hard to break a habit. One company I worked with for 7 years made me redundnat, and I took that pretty hard. Mainly because instead of getting up, logging into my email and eating my Cheerios then calling a couple of colleagues about email that'd come in overnight, I didnt have that routine, and when you've done it for years it's difficult to change.

I've always found though that people come through redundancy in one of two ways. Either fk them and their fking stty job, I'll fk them over the next fking time I can, or cheers for the opportunity, I'm off to do bigger and better things, we might meet again, have a good one

Edited by andy-xr on Friday 3rd June 10:51

I have started down the road to looking after #1, mainly update my CV, just basic update for now, ill see if some people can cast an eye over it to see if its still okay with the new roles and experience etc.

Speaking to a couple of guys here there is a sense of 'fk em' but its just not in my nature, you never know who you'll meet again, but i am also not going to roll over, ill want as good a deal as i can get, hopefully a good reference as ive always been pretty fair in the work and not aggravated\butted heads with anyone really, bar the odd last minute deadline\request.

what's worst about this is, even though it called money saving, there's no company wide pay cuts, they are doing cost savings on stuff but that all feels a bit fiddling at the edges, so i think while they need to make some cuts, this does feel a lot like getting rid of people they maybe arent so happy with, and after good reviews and always good standard of audits and system reviews from clients and auditors, being asked to leave is a bit of a hard pill....however if they see a £10k saving by getting external folk in, its a numbers game, and business is business.

Start to talk to a few folk in various local businesses i am chummy with, I've turned my hand to many jobs and am good with my hands\eye for details so you never know.

Trick is not to sit in a onesie in my flat not out looking, have to make yourself noticed

Cinema on saturday may cheer me up a bit though.

[Rick_1138]

The biggest fear is that the jobs market in Aberdeen\shire is not good, and most HSE roles were O&G based, day to day hse jobs are few and far between.

The idea of going on my own as a consultancy type deal is also quite bad, as we are looking at buying a house soon and being a sole trader\consultant isnt seen as good when viewing mortgage possibilities

[Rick_1138]

andy-xr said:

Try working in high-tech and being based 200 miles north of the M4 corridor. I know what you're saying

Every role I've had in the last 10 years has been 'the remote guy' and I've consulted as well as worked remotely for companies. I really dont have a need to go into an office, so I probably wont work for an employer who wants me sat at a desk at 8:55 every day. I need a phone, a laptop and usually some wifi, so I can work from anywhere. Last week I worked from 2 taxis and a hotel in the US. There's always ways around things if everyone's committed to making it happen

Incidentally, we just bought a house, my credit's st and I'm self employed, so found an understanding lender (Halifax) and put it in my wife's name
They know who I am in relation to the mortgage and how it's being funded. St James Place gave us really good advice

Edited by andy-xr on Friday 3rd June 12:17

Thanks i'll keep that in mind re-mortgages etc

I am only 34 (in 2 weeks (ace birthday present ) so i am not in pickle a couple of the guys are in their 50's who are also facing the chop, so i am lucky in that sense.

[Rick_1138]

Rovinghawk said:

Rick_1138 said:

Main question is how will they carry out qhse required systems and standards with no qualified HSE person on site

How much of it is actually required & how much of it actually needs a 'qualified' person?

Quite a lot, as it needs to be audited and updated by qualified person quite regularly.

Yeah it can be done by contractors and parts of it farmed out to other staff, but many customers don't like that as it shows a lack of not taking qhse seriously (box ticking) and the amount of times job tenders need quite varied and unique qhse input is regular, getting consultants in to do that every other week would be expensive.

Also the whole document system has been ran by me for 5 years, if auditors come in and they get a consultant in for those 2 days, they'll struggle to cover everything with ought knowing where stuff is and how the system works quickly.

Which could lead to poor audits and less work

Also new iso standards come out in a year and that will need third party contractors in for a long period of time and internal staff training, all of which they won't need if I am kept on.


We'll see what the consultation shows up, as I'll go through this stuff as I'm not 100% they actually know all what comes through me day to day.

[Rick_1138]

andy-xr said:

Rick_1138 said:

Quite a lot, as it needs to be audited and updated by qualified person quite regularly.

Yeah it can be done by contractors and parts of it farmed out to other staff, but many customers don't like that as it shows a lack of not taking qhse seriously (box ticking) and the amount of times job tenders need quite varied and unique qhse input is regular, getting consultants in to do that every other week would be expensive.

Also the whole document system has been ran by me for 5 years, if auditors come in and they get a consultant in for those 2 days, they'll struggle to cover everything with ought knowing where stuff is and how the system works quickly.

Which could lead to poor audits and less work

Also new iso standards come out in a year and that will need third party contractors in for a long period of time and internal staff training, all of which they won't need if I am kept on.


We'll see what the consultation shows up, as I'll go through this stuff as I'm not 100% they actually know all what comes through me day to day.

Gotta let the company do what they think is in it's best interests, job preservation aside that problem is their problem rather than yours.

Oh i totally understand that, this is just part of what i may go into in the consultation tomorrow if its goes down that route.

If i am to be made redundant regardless, well thats that.

However if they are palming off my role to others and bringing in external folk to do other parts of my job does this not possibly get into unfair redunandcy\dismissal, as my role is still required by the company, and if i am willing to reduce hours or can show savings with external groups wont be much, then technically they cant. (i realise they can do what they want, but from a legal standpoint, do they not have to prove why i am to be made redundant if my role is still required??)

Just genuine curiosity, i am not one to go all out and start tribunals\ lawyer up etc, lifes too short, but i am interested in how they can make my role 'redundant' when it still has to be carried out.

[Rick_1138]

andy-xr said:

Consultations in my experience, unless you have a big union behind you, are more of a 'this is what we're doing'

It's a one way street for many companies - go in of course with an open mind, just dont expect the same coming back over the table at you, it's an exercise in futility
Generally each role is somewhere on an xls with a cost against it and if that's showing as 'we could remove that' then I doubt there's much you could say. Not trying to be overly negative, but when I said earlier that you're now the number 1 priority, this sort of stuff can bog you down and cut into the time you have evaluating your options

I am basically expecting what you said above, i know i am not a special snowflake etc, and i am in limbo a bit till tomorrow afternoon (i.e. deffo tatties over the side, or options may be looked at to still be here etc).

However i am just trying to get a handle on what to expect, i.e. is it all a case of they can do what they like, or do i actually have the baility to ask how they can remove my role when its quite important and less useful roles from some other staff members are being kept on (i know for a fact a couple of them are bored at work with little to do at times in these roles).

But the mrs and i have a plan, were sensible and ill take on any job that comes my way, im not going to be a wage snob or anything daft.

Could end up being a great life change.

[Rick_1138]

mph1977 said:

Rick_1138 said:

However if they are palming off my role to others and bringing in external folk to do other parts of my job does this not possibly get into unfair redunandcy\dismissal, as my role is still required by the company, and if i am willing to reduce hours or can show savings with external groups wont be much, then technically they cant. (i realise they can do what they want, but from a legal standpoint, do they not have to prove why i am to be made redundant if my role is still required??)

Just genuine curiosity, i am not one to go all out and start tribunals\ lawyer up etc, lifes too short, but i am interested in how they can make my role 'redundant' when it still has to be carried out.

because the role is redundant ...

typical H+S man attitude strikes ...

Eh, dont be a dick. My role is still required, the ISO systems and audits, training, competencies all still have to be managed and quite a few of those areas cant be handed off to other staff members as they have no qualifications\competency to do them.

Thats all i meant, i wasnt shouting that 'its not fair, woe is me'

I was just seeking some advice about weather or not a role can be made redundant when its still going to be a major part of the business.

However i realise if they want rid of me they can, then hire a 'safety leader' or something similar, doing the same job but with a diff title.

[Rick_1138]

andy-xr said:

No but seriously, this isnt your decision to make. It might be that tasks within the role are spread out amongst other people, meaning the role isnt there anymore. It's not unfair, but please please, take the company hat off and put yer own on

I know, i'm just fked off that its all bks then, if my role was so fking important all the time and important to the business then in the blink of an eye it gets palmed off, yet i have to go through this bloody stupid 'consultation' when they could have just told me i was being made redundant 5 days ago.

I am just fed up as i am in limbo just now, i have done all i can re- CV, starting to look at other places, but i hate the feeling like i have the plague here, basically certain staff members basically blanking me now, when they were chatty before (all people who i note dont have redundancy risk letters)

I realise i am bringing in emotions into it, but this sitting here having to do work i am being asked for that is for a role being made redundant really leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Though i know its not malicious and its business but its been handled so poorly (the lead up to this not the redundancy process) by senior managers, its gard to not be a bit annoyed.

[Rick_1138]

ruggedscotty said:

Seriously hes not being a dick - maybe you are hearing someone say something that you really don't like the sound off. Companies really don't have much to hold them back thinking we are protected by some law or other doesn't get you anywhere. Can you take in a union rep or a witness - get as much written down, usually if its affecting you some of the shock announcements can and will scare you enough to put you off of your stride. How much are you due, whats the minimum redundancy payment they can give you. The majority of cases for unfair dismissal are won as the company has not followed procedure, you need to be sure that they do. its set down what is required and that is something that you need to be aware of.

Im coming through it myself - im in the process of making my mind up to either go for VR or try for an alternative job - now that isn't a great place to be when they are laying off shedloads and my experience does not meet in with what they need for the other roles. There are a lot of rules around that aswell - if your getting offered decent money and you go for an alternative role and then find out that you don't like it 3 months down the line then you have lost that redundancy. Also if they are making you redundant is it for any reason relating to you ? if you won the redundancy and were kept on your life would be made very uncomfortable.
Sometimes its best just to think hey that's it on to pastures new and Im not going to get fixated with it all. life can be stty at times and it can deal you a bad card. its up to you to get that card back to the bottom of the pack and move on

Take for example two guys are working one wraps a box and the other stamps it and adds a label and files it, two people working quite the thing. They buy a machine that can wrap it and you find suddenly there is only enough work for one, Or even worse two are wrapping and stamping and labelling, they each load a trolley and move it to dispatch. suddenly they buy a robot trolley and find that this cuts out the walking to the dispatch. they then find that one person can do the work of both so the pay off one... that's how it happens. The role is made redundant not the person - the person is in to do the role. no role no requirement for a person. they don't need to keep the 2nd person - they will pay him off. The interesting things come from how they do that - are the role profiles different ? Does one know how to work the trolley ? if he does how much does it cost to train up the other ? Both are trained, so how to sort those two out ? any had a disciplinary time keeping issues all sorts gets thrown into the equation - its not a nice situation to be in, and it causes a hell of a lot anger and animosity. lots of companies never recover when such things happen.

The point about role being redundant i didnt have an issue with (its not grat, but i realise how it works)

It was more the line about 'Typical H&S man attitude'. Its got nothing to do with my job role being a hse person, its more out of the blue there was the possibilities of redundancy, i have my consultation tomorrow regarding if i will actually be made redundant or if my role can be reviewed etc, I was asking for some tips on what to ask etc in the interview and i was getting a single line response making out that i am being a bit thick, then that was turned into me having an attitude problem because all hse people have an attitude.

I was only looking for help, i'm a bit stressed out so was being a bit shouty as i cant talk about it anywhere else, when the company is making cuts by making people redundant due to economic slowdown, but with no other cost cutting measures to other staff, i.e. pay cuts.

EDIT: Apologies for getting a bit shouty, just a bit stretched out with it.

[Rick_1138]

Aye i know, we QHSE people are all a waste of time (sadly too many folk in these roles are jobsworths and ruin it for the rest of us).

The company has to make cuts, we are seperate from O&G but still in the sector, but a few circumstances has resulted in the company having issues, not linked specifically to oil price.

My consultation is this afternoon so i will see where we are a bit, i have questions to ask (mostly stuff that gov websites tell you to ask, like why redundancies, what is process\timeline, references etc.

Hopefully this will clear the waters a bit and ill have a better idea if its deffo out the door or it really is just a review at this stage of who is to go.

CV' has been updated and going to speak to agencies etc this week, was mainly holding off to see how this meeting goes.

[Rick_1138]

The meeting went as well as expected.

All very polite and easy going. Covered all the basic facts about why my role was chosen as possible redundancy, basically my role can be handed out to external consultants for considerably cheaper than my salary, which is fair enough.

However talking about my role and duties, and the upcoming new ISO standards and their implementation, as well as being on site\phone at all times (consultancies may not help on a weekend etc), they were interested in me offering a shorter week.

However they are looking more at 3 days a week which would be a significant pay cut) but i could do work for other companies.

The issue with this is i have never been a self employed person, and that opens up a rather different ball game, with qualifications, knowledge, pay\tax, liabilities and being responsible for other sites HSE could be bad if i do something wrong and am classed as responsible for something happening on site or not being checked properly etc.

So i have a lot to think about, as i dont want to be rushed into becoming like a sole trader and find its really not for me etc.

[Rick_1138]

fido said:

Rick_1138 said:

The issue with this is i have never been a self employed person, and that opens up a rather different ball game, with qualifications, knowledge, pay\tax, liabilities and being responsible for other sites HSE could be bad if i do something wrong and am classed as responsible for something happening on site or not being checked properly etc.

Sounds like a great way to start contracting! Either set up an Ltd and buy professional indemnity insurance or work through an umbrella company. I have my own limited company.

My main worry with this idea is i would expect other clients to want me to have something like a NEBOSH Diploma, rather than the general cert i hold, i.e. i'd need more training to be seen as competent, as while i have over 8 years of HSE experience, i would imagine you need something a bit more solid in terms of qualifications to carry out as a contractor.

The other thing is it depends on if my current place are offering 3 days a week as an employee with ability to do other sites HSE on the 2 days i dont work, or if they want me as a contractor doing the odd 3 days each couple of weeks, as if thats the case, then id probably stick with a new job and a 5 day a week employee.

Need to read up a lot and see what's involved.

[Rick_1138]

andy-xr said:

Rick_1138 said:

The meeting went as well as expected.

All very polite and easy going. Covered all the basic facts about why my role was chosen as possible redundancy, basically my role can be handed out to external consultants for considerably cheaper than my salary, which is fair enough.

However talking about my role and duties, and the upcoming new ISO standards and their implementation, as well as being on site\phone at all times (consultancies may not help on a weekend etc), they were interested in me offering a shorter week.

However they are looking more at 3 days a week which would be a significant pay cut) but i could do work for other companies.

The issue with this is i have never been a self employed person, and that opens up a rather different ball game, with qualifications, knowledge, pay\tax, liabilities and being responsible for other sites HSE could be bad if i do something wrong and am classed as responsible for something happening on site or not being checked properly etc.

So i have a lot to think about, as i dont want to be rushed into becoming like a sole trader and find its really not for me etc.

This, isnt good. What you'll end up with is a reduced hours contract and some work for a while, and while you're welcome to find other things to fill the remaining 2 days a week, you'll get slammed on a rate because yo'll only have so much concentration to put towards a second role

I appreciate you may be going into this with 'something's better than nothing' butI would negotiate for a voluntary redundancy, ask for an ex gratia payment and if needs be, scribble out the holidays you've taken and have them paid out.

It stikes me, the longer you're around this company the more they'll take the piss and the shorter your patience will be with them. Clean stats are often a good option with some cash behind you . As has been mentioned, you may be walking away from a potential redundancy payout if you accept the reduced week, a good employment lawyer should be able to help you cos I think you might have walked up a blind alley here

TBH, i am mostly in agreement with what you are saying.

There is another meeting in a week, and they have asked if i can put together a document explaining what timescales the work i do covers, and include stuff like new standard implementation, also going into being on site all the time, as this l=place is bad for last minute requirements of stuff, and a third party consultant wont be able to jump the minute when the sales team comes calling.

If i was offered 4 days a week but as a full employee with my current role with hourly change salary reduction i would be happy with that, as its a good place to work and they are happy with my work, this is simply a numbers game, but they realise consultants may cause issues with not being available as required and could cost more in long run with new standards etc.

However if its a case of a 3 day week, and as a contractor setup rather than full employee i would rather go redundancy option and find a role somewhere else, i am not going to hang about 'just to have a job'.

If that makes sense

[Rick_1138]

CubanPete said:

Can you not take the redundancy and then work for them 3 days a week on a consultancy basis?

Found out the ops manager was let go last night, 3 weeks from his 2 years service. Apparently GM phoned him last week when he had heard about redundancies and was assured by the GM he was safe, they are just getting rid of 'deadwood'.

Nice to have the ste cleared away so i can see more clearly its as i thought.

CV is going to agencies tonight, and phoning CAB to get a bit more accurate info about what i should be doing in any future interviews.

EDIT: Anyone know a good place that can review a CV for someone for suitability?

Edited by Rick_1138 on Wednesday 8th June 11:22

[Rick_1138]

andy-xr said:

I'd be using work time to do all that as well as my own tbh

how long have you been there? There was a mention of something pre 2008, have you been at this company since?

Been here since 2011, August.

So i will only get 4 weeks redundancy as about 2 months away from 5 years service.

[Rick_1138]

edc said:

Rick_1138 said:

Been here since 2011, August.

So i will only get 4 weeks redundancy as about 2 months away from 5 years service.

You will also be entitled to your contractual notice whether paid in lieu or worked.

You don't say what the redundancy policy/calculation is but you should be aware of the statutory cap and the calculation table based on age and service is readily available on the Internet. The Company may enhance this with additional company redundancy payments too. As part of your consultation process you should be provided with estimate of your final payments.

I havent been told my redundancy total yet, but from a mate at work in same boat he was told its just basic, there are no redundancy packages being offered.

Notice will be 1 week of year of service, so 4 weeks for me, as not quite at 5 years. If they ask for 5 weeks notice, i will expect 5 weeks redundancy, or they can fk off.

Need to have my cv reviewed then put it onto agencies today\tonight.