Bit of an advise on possibility of dismissal :(

[crazy about cars]

Just had a bomb shell dropped on me so hopefully someone can kindly provide some advice ...

First I'll start with a bit of history. I worked for a company for around 5 years before it was bought out by a bigger company. I was offered a new role with the new company to assist in migration project.
I was made PM of the project by IT Director even though I'm new to the company but was told I have full support of management. Basically this project didn't go to planned and caused some friction in senior management. My manager who is also the person who offered me my job left the company and I'm basically left to face the firing line.
I've changed managers twice in period of 1 year since then. I'm with this company for around 1 year and 6 months. I'm now in a new team which is based in HQ. This HQ is 150 miles from my home so I'm based at a site instead. I travel to HQ fortnightly. My contract didn't change but in 1 years or so my role has.
IT Director was initially fine with the arrangement although he did mention about me moving up to HQ citing no pressure.

Fast forward to today... Something must've kicked off this week as my new manager pulled me in for 1-to-1 when I'm in HQ. Apparently the IT Director is not happy with my performance and can't justify having me in the team. I was then asked again if I will relocate near to HQ. I said no but I am willing to improve on performance and I take on board all his concerns. Manager then suggests a few process to hopefully improve the situation. I've mentioned I am happy to have face-to-face with IT Director if required to further address any concerns.

Company has also just taken on one newcomer to replace a leaver but the thing is he is not replacing role of leaver but rather one similar to mine.

Came out of meeting with manager with smile and all but deep inside I know that my time is up. I don't think my performance has dropped but felt like point were being picked on to penalise me. It just feels like they want to let me go but not via redundancy...

Anyway I've never went through such a process before so would appreciate any advise. Can my employment be terminated on the grounds that I won't relocate?

[crazy about cars]

Hi all,

Thanks for the kind reply. I'm not angry just feel shell shocked. I've always strive to give my best at work and have never been in any kind of disciplinary procedure my whole career. This is the first big company I've worked for though so not sure how things works.

As far as I'm aware there's no formal procedure or warning, just manager saying I have a "big red flag" on my head and IT Director is not happy with my performance past few months. I find it strange this is suddenly brought up as I've spoke to IT director last month and he's happy. Only thing I can think of is that I've told one colleague this week that I'm not very happy and worried about my career here.

As for redundancy this also hasn't been mentioned and I've heard that my department never offerred redundancy. I've only heard my manager say that hopefully the decision won't be to let me go

I can see things from management perspective and have promised to try and improve things with a plan put forward. I'm hoping they can see things from mine too. It's just not feasible moving my family here and my kids finally settled down in school and have friends. Also there's also a risk that I'll still be sacked after moving here...

Loads to think over the weekend - and I have to work during the weekend preparing for system implementation on Monday too so that'll be fun...

[crazy about cars]

Regarding question about performance I think it's not easy to quantify as I've had 3 line managers in less than a year and all of them had different directions. Perhaps if I'm physically based in the HQ things will be different as they can physically see me working away and contribute as part of the team. I have completed tasks assigned by my current line manager though but I guess there's been some crossed wires and miscommunication or perhaps that doesn't account to anything.

So yes if we don't consider all of the above and looking at things from senior management's perspective yes, my performance has slipped as I don't seem to be delivering major projects.

I've been told to get something done by 1st August so hopefully nothing will happen until then but who knows...

[crazy about cars]

Thanks again all for the incredibly helpful replies. It's a relieve to know they cannot just sack me without a valid reason.

Regarding relocation for me it's a no as I don't feel any reassurance at all regarding career prospects. The words "can't currently justify large team" and "I'm not sure how to sell your role to the IT Director" enforces my thoughts. Also the fact that they've just hired a new start with higher pay grade just starting this week just doesn't makes sense to me to relocate. There is no relocation offer on the table, only an offer to take my wife (no kids) offer to look at some houses in the afternoon while I work in the morning.

Regarding performance I guess I'm just unlucky. When I first joined this company I was made PM of a systems implementation project. From my perspective I've put in all the effort and my directive (and only contact despite offer of support from IT Director) throughout the project came from the boss who left the company.
I've constantly highlighted issues to my then boss and also copied in IT Director when I feel that escalation is required but was just told to "crack on". Anyway there were issues unknown which gone all the way to the top during the final days of the project which resulted in my ex boss leaving the company. I had to work extra hard to ensure project still went live but in the eyes of the senior management it's a failed project and there's some black mark hanging over my head. Another senior member of the team also left after my boss which then resulted in the future rollouts being cancelled.

The IT Director then transferred me to another role with another boss. I was with this boss for roughly 5 months and have based myself at another site roughly 20miles away to be close to him. I've constantly met targets set by him although after he retired it looks like senior management didn't really like what he did and whatever work I've been doing for him didn't get recognised.

The next boss who is my current boss is a younger lady with fresh ideas and is based in HQ. When I first met her is March it was all positive talk on how being under her wings will result in my career going in the right direction and how I will be very busy in June. June came and the same talk however less enthusiatic tone about how we'll be busy in September. I've been given tasks by this new boss which I've always completed. I guess she finds it difficult managing someone remotely as she used to manage teams that is based together. Sometimes I would find her forgetting tasks that she's said is important which I've done.

Sorry for the long post but I guess I just need to get it off my chest. Perhaps I've been in an unlucky situation. I'm definitely job hunting and hoping for a fair outcome and not bullied out of a job. Again, no redundancy offer has been mentioned, so far just a meeting yesterday mentioning I've got a red flag for non being around and under performing. I did try to defend myself but current manager's tone changed saying "well let's just say I don't want to go back to IT Director with option to let you go because you won't relocate as this won't work for the team" so I just said I'll improve on my performance and complete more visible tasks.

I know for me it will be like a dark cloud hanging over my head until I find another job or the unlikely even that prospects improve but guess there's nothing else I can do? I haven't approached HR yet at this point as I don't see any need to...

[crazy about cars]

4x4Tyke said:

This topic has been covered a few times on here, start searching/reading.

Remember this probably not about you, the other departures are likely to have been exactly the same, if possible reconnect with them, outline your situation and ask if they are prepared to tell you anything.

"not happy with my performance and can't justify having me in the team" are two completely separate issues. As other have said it is likely they are trying to managed you out. My guess is they want you to jump, don't. Do start looking for options but don't jump, make them push you out or more likely offer a settlement agreement. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4395

Unless you've been given clear indicators of your expected performance and specifics about how you've failed a 'with cause sacking' is not legally possible unless you fail a PIP (Google Performance improvement plans). The second part is essentially saying your position is redundant and is a nice little ace in the hole if they try something with cause. Don't give it away. In both cases, redundancy vs settlement any cash offer is likely to the similar. If you leave they are likely to save at least three months salary.

Start keeping copious notes, be specific and precise about what you are told and asked, record the exact words used to convey the above to you. Collate information concerning objectives set by the previous managers and identify the discrepancies or changes. Use the HR processes to your advantage.

Google covering your arse using processes.

Thanks. I'm definitely keeping record of all that's been said and agreed. Definitely won't jump but feel down as it's like dark cloud over head. No PIP has been mentioned, came out of the meeting agreeing to a weekly catchup with line manager to discuss work load and any issues. Also that I will start commiting to travelling to HQ fortnightly - I only travelled down 1 week last month as I was off during the week I'm supposed to travel down but now I need to make sure I arrange to be there 2 weeks/month. It wasn't clear how many days but I will confirm during catch up meeting coming Friday.

Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 10:12

Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 10:22

[crazy about cars]

andy-xr said:

You say that like it's a bad thing, I think the opposite - lets'say he stays there for another 6-12 months. Always got a cloud hanging over you and you never quite feel 'right'

A redundancy can be a positive life changer tbh as long as both sides can move on quickly

Yes, for me I will feel better if company would be straight forward about it and say role is HQ based only therefore I'll be made redundant instead of trying to blame on my performance which will affect my chances of finding another job...

[crazy about cars]

Jasandjules said:

Do you have some sort of formal performance policy in your staff handbook? If so, what does it say?

You said you "took on board" the comments - are you saying they are justified or simply seeking excuses?

As above, it is likely that a wise person would seek another job. Then seek a compromise agreement to leave your firm with a small payoff.

Do feel free to email me however if you wish.

Some of the comments are probably due to crossed wires however as my previous post manager's tone changed for the worse so I didn't want to go down that route which makes things worse so just said I took all points on board and am willing to improve.

There's no formal structured guideline on performance although in my contract it's still focussed on the role I was initially hired which was in ERP and not Business Intelligence.

I'm on the job hunt but am a bit worried I will get negative reference. Although I'm sure I can get a good reference from first boss who left the company...

Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 10:25

[crazy about cars]

mike9009 said:

Have you been given a formal performance improvement plan? It sounds like they have not been specific about your lack of performance. Do you know formally (or informally) what to improve?

I would ask for specific targets to improve. Then consider/ negotiate whether these are realistic (SMART) objectives?

But do you now want to stay??

Mike

No, as far as I'm aware I've not been given any formal improvement plans, just been told to focus on a project to Go Live by 1st August as target and a weekly catch up. I did mention it's a tight deadline and will highlight in weekly review of any issues faced.

If things doesn't improve then no, I don't think I would want to stay as I don't feel appreciated.

Just a bit suprised why this is happening now but I supposed someone up top asked about budgets/headcount.
I know recently working from home is a taboo and banned and guess because I'm mostly remote (go to local site instead of HQ) I've viewed in the same light.

Another thing that was discussed was how expensive it is to put me through training and after meeting I found out I've been excluded from a training session... kick in the teeth.

Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 10:27

[crazy about cars]

craigjm said:

That is not strictly true. Within the qualifying period of the first two years they don't really need a valid reason, don't have to follow their performance procedures, disciplinary procedures or anything like that if they so wish. However, that doesn't mean that a dismissal like that would automatically be safe during that period because you may be able to show it was based on discrimination or because of an office you hold like that of a union rep. Outside of a small number of exclusions though they can dismiss you without a reason and there is no need for performance improvement plans or any such thing.

It takes quite a ballsy company to do so though but don't be under any illusions of being "safe"


Sorry to state that but employees are significantly less safe with less than two years service and you need to know what you are dealing with

I've been with previous company for just over 5 years before it's taken over (been with this company 1 year 7 months). My impression is my years of service in previous company would be included? I've checked my HR portal and it says continuous service 5 years.

[crazy about cars]

WinstonWolf said:

The IT Director's project has failed, he needs to be seen to be doing something about it. You're in a precarious position, my advice would be to walk away with a good reference into something more local.

I guess it's worse as this is his first major project after joining company (he joined a month after me) ...
On the job hunt but it's very competitive in my sector but still trying my best.

[crazy about cars]

TEKNOPUG said:

5 Year continuous service? Accept that they want you out. Your position hasn't become redundant. They have no cause to fire you (they certainly haven't followed the correct procedures). So it just comes down to a financial settlement. I've been in similar position (company A merges with company B, it's already been decided that B will keep certain roles etc) with less service than you and was given 1 year's salary. Which was basically, "we're illegally firing you, here's lots of money as a settlement on the agreement that you don't sue".

In your position, I'd want at least 6 month's salary. I wouldn't be concerned with the reference, they are only legally bound to confirm your position and employment dates anyway. Much better to get a personal reference from a previous boss you worked with there.

I was offered new role which basically transferring from local site IT to central IT. Things have massively changed from the point my boss left so I am guessing I suddenly don't fit in the big picture. Nothing formal has been said about role being based in HQ except from the meeting yesterday. Few weeks ago had same informal discussion with IT director and line manager (which I think I've also posted here) and the tone was completely different. In the IT Director's words "no pressure...". I still find it strange how things have suddenly changed.

There's few points I need to work on coming out from the meeting yesterday and hopefully that will make some difference. I should hopefully be able to tell in few weeks. Requested a meeting with the IT Director to further discuss as well as manager admitted she's a bit puzzled as well at the change of stance.

[crazy about cars]

davepoth said:

If your role moves to another location and you don't want to, that can be a valid ground for redundancy.

https://www.gov.uk/employer-relocation-your-rights

That I will accept but I guess this has be through formal processes and not just from a meeting like what I had yesterday?
The words "If you don't relocate I find it hard to make this work with IT Director" still sticks in my mind... I guess I should've just asked "Does this mean I will be made redundant" but I was shell shocked and can't think straight.
All is just starting to sink in today.

edit: The new start was initially supposed to fulfil a position of someone who left the company. This person had a distinctive role which is different from mine. However during interview process the role was revised to one very similar to what I'm supposed to progress into. I've read that by law they cannot hire someone in similar role after making someone redundant but I guess this could be a strategy to let me go citing not enough work for 2 person in same role?

Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 12:58

Edited by crazy about cars on Saturday 9th July 12:59

[crazy about cars]

Jefferson Steelflex said:

I've been in a similar situation before, and my advice is to be like The Fonz and stay cool for as long as you can, do not mention redundancy or wanting to leave, do a great job and meet expectations as much as you can.

Accept they want you out, and start looking for another job. In my case, I was expecting a compromise agreement and I have no doubt I would have got one, but work was getting me down so much that I eventually found another job before we got to the compromise agreement being made and it was the best thing for my sanity to just go. I spent 3 months sitting in my garden on full pay so it wasn't all bad.

Best case is you get some money, and a new job lined up around the same time and move on. Remember it's always easier to find work when you are already in work, so make sure you look after your best interests and don't sit around waiting for a pay off that may never come.

Thanks bud. That's my plan too, hence why I've stayed very calm during the meeting and have agreed to address the red flags best I can.

I've updated CV/LinkedIn and started to hunt for jobs but the market doesn't look so good so far. I'll keep trying and fingers crossed I'll find something soon as it's not nice going to work everyday knowing there's good chance of being let go at any time.

[crazy about cars]

Funk said:

Don't approach HR at all. They're there to look out for the company's interests, not yours.

Find something new then negotiate a settlement to go from your current employer.

Thanks. I've only thought of this as I've spoke to someone from HR just after joining this company and she seemed very helpful compared to usual HR person I speak to at HQ about stuff like holiday entitlements etc.
However that was an issue against another employee instead of the company so I guess it's different...

[crazy about cars]

ChasW said:

Mine too. As usual keep full records of all related interactions and communications. I am sure an employment tribunal, if it ever came to that, would reach the conclusion that you had been poorly managed by your employer. .

Well I'm hoping it wouldn't end up going in that direction as it would've been very awkward process. I can't imagine turning up to work with a grievance or tribunal claim put against my employer.
I'm definitely going to be more meticulous about record keeping. One thing I didn't do is to create a written record of what was discussed during the meeting. I'm not sure as that'll be wise as it might aggravate the situation.

[crazy about cars]

Jasandjules said:

Ok,

What does your contract say about your location of work?

Place of work in the contract is at the same site I was working at before it got bought over (Let's call this Site A). However IT Director asked me to travel to another site further away (Let's call this Site B) from around October last year which I've done and have been claiming business miles against. Because of doing this I've lost my desk at Site A and have now been permanently based in Site B unless if I'm travelling up to HQ.
It does say I need to travel and also required to work elsewhere within UK on occasional or temp periods.

Also a line about my role saying I'm required to comply to "reasonable instructions as the company shall determine to be necessary for the proper performance" of my role.
I'm a bit worried by this one... can this be interpreted as being in HQ is viewed as necessary for proper performance?

[crazy about cars]

4x4Tyke said:

Clauses such as "reasonable instructions as the company shall determine to be necessary for the proper performance" are pretty much universal. They cover day to day instructions and assigning work duties.

It does not provide the company never mind the manager with the power to changing essential elements of the contract such as working location. To do that a contract will typically include a specific expectation regarding working location, variation and travel.

Ah ok, thank you for the clarification.
As advised I'll play it cool and try my best to meet expectations whilst ensuring I document what's possible. Weekly catch up would be a very good process to ensure both myself and management are clear about performance expectations.
A bit of good news as I've been contacted by head of department of company (instead of the usual recruiter) on LinkedIn so hopefully that could turn into potential job opportunity otherwise can form good experience for future job search. I need some brushing up after 5+ years...

Edited by crazy about cars on Sunday 10th July 14:25

[crazy about cars]

Wow this is creepy. Not sure why but somehow I got a bit suspicious about the person who contacted me on LinkedIn so I've Google Image searched and guess what?
Person who contacted me has another profile on LinkedIn totally same picture but complete different person!
I shouldn't have gave out my mobile number...really regret it now. Please be aware of who you give information on in LinkedIn!

[crazy about cars]

elanfan said:

OP - tell your employers that you will relocate but it will take time to sell yours and find another, ask if they will pay your sales fees and legal costs to waste some HR time and resources Take time to search for new place to live all the while using the time for more job searches and interviews. They are getting ready to fk you over, you do the fking!!

Good luck!

Thanks for the well wishes!

I don't think lying to my current employers will help my situation. This would probably result in a disciplinary and make it easier for them to dismiss me. Even when I was saying I'll think about it I was asked countless times how many houses have I viewed etc. I guess their interpretation of "no pressure" is different from mine...

Can feel myself slipping into pits of depression on first day back work after that meeting.
I am telling myself at this stage there's nothing formal being said and I still have chance to claw it back and time to look for other jobs.

[crazy about cars]

Funk said:

Indeed; I was persuaded to join it a while back but have found it to be pretty much a complete waste of time.

In my experience it does help to widen professional network hence why I've been naive and never suspected that someone would actually do this kind of thing. Not a very good timing for me as well as I've actually cheered up a bit initially on prospect of new job. Ah well, moving on...