Investigation Pending Diciplinary Action Turning Very Nasty
Discussion
In the spring of this year a close relative suffered a work related spinal injury. There was an accusation made that the injury was due to deviation from the employer's health and safety policies and my relative was suspended pending a disciplinary investigation and hearing.
My relative works in special needs social care. A resident they were walking with fell. Policy is to let them drop then give aid and seek help after they hit the ground. Catching them is against the rules as firstly you could hurt yourself and secondly if you fell with the patient whose to say you didn't cause the injury rather than the floor thus exposing the employer to litigation.
Apparently letting someone taking a seizure fall on their face is more difficult than it sounds.
Technically speaking H&S patient handling rules were breached.
When informed of this my relative asked a senior HR manager for a copy of their training records as they were certain they had never attended any patient handling training whilst with this employer and thus had never been formally trained or instructed to let someone falling drop. This was refused. In response my relative phoned a junior HR administrator and asked if they'd ping an email of their current training record. The email was sent and my relative was able to demonstrate that as an employee of this company they had never received training or instruction that they had allegedly contravened. My relative was then accused of breaching the terms of their suspension by contacting a member of staff.
After explaining that the terms and conditions of the suspension had ever been sent and thus no breach of said terms could take place my relative was informed by the employer that they had indeed been informed and in writing immediately after the suspension occurred. A letter dated accordingly appeared in the post the next day. When it was pointed out this letter was sent retrospectively the employer denied that this was the case. My relative contacted the private mail provider that had delivered the letter and by means of a cereal number at the top of the envelope was able to prove the letter was picked up from the employer's premises the day prior to receipt. This information was privileged information and the mail contractor would only provide it to subjects with the employer's email address. My relative accessed the email via an app on their personal phone.
They now not only face investigation for a patient mishandling incident but a count of contacting staff when instructed not to do so, a count of dishonestly obtaining information by deception as they had not informed the HR junior administrator they were suspended, a count of contacting a contractor of the employee when instructed not to do so and again dishonestly obtaining information by means of deception and a count of misusing company email for personal gain.
The patient mishandling incident could be brushed off but the use of language such as "dishonestly" "deception", "misuse of company emails" and "personal gain" makes my relative look like an out and out crook. Next problem is although working an an administrative/management role in the private sector this person is still a registered nurse. Dishonesty, deception and guilt of for personal gain is "striking off" material once the NMC become involved.
Where to go from here?
My relative works in special needs social care. A resident they were walking with fell. Policy is to let them drop then give aid and seek help after they hit the ground. Catching them is against the rules as firstly you could hurt yourself and secondly if you fell with the patient whose to say you didn't cause the injury rather than the floor thus exposing the employer to litigation.
Apparently letting someone taking a seizure fall on their face is more difficult than it sounds.
Technically speaking H&S patient handling rules were breached.
When informed of this my relative asked a senior HR manager for a copy of their training records as they were certain they had never attended any patient handling training whilst with this employer and thus had never been formally trained or instructed to let someone falling drop. This was refused. In response my relative phoned a junior HR administrator and asked if they'd ping an email of their current training record. The email was sent and my relative was able to demonstrate that as an employee of this company they had never received training or instruction that they had allegedly contravened. My relative was then accused of breaching the terms of their suspension by contacting a member of staff.
After explaining that the terms and conditions of the suspension had ever been sent and thus no breach of said terms could take place my relative was informed by the employer that they had indeed been informed and in writing immediately after the suspension occurred. A letter dated accordingly appeared in the post the next day. When it was pointed out this letter was sent retrospectively the employer denied that this was the case. My relative contacted the private mail provider that had delivered the letter and by means of a cereal number at the top of the envelope was able to prove the letter was picked up from the employer's premises the day prior to receipt. This information was privileged information and the mail contractor would only provide it to subjects with the employer's email address. My relative accessed the email via an app on their personal phone.
They now not only face investigation for a patient mishandling incident but a count of contacting staff when instructed not to do so, a count of dishonestly obtaining information by deception as they had not informed the HR junior administrator they were suspended, a count of contacting a contractor of the employee when instructed not to do so and again dishonestly obtaining information by means of deception and a count of misusing company email for personal gain.
The patient mishandling incident could be brushed off but the use of language such as "dishonestly" "deception", "misuse of company emails" and "personal gain" makes my relative look like an out and out crook. Next problem is although working an an administrative/management role in the private sector this person is still a registered nurse. Dishonesty, deception and guilt of for personal gain is "striking off" material once the NMC become involved.
Where to go from here?
Update. Professional assistance and advice has been sought and acted upon.
HR want to drop everything and sack relative as medically unfit for work due to a drinking problem.
Managers want to pursue everything with a vengeance.
Relative who was on statutory sick pay sick has had status changed to suspended on full pay subject to disciplinary action. This status was backdated to the time of the incident so a fistful of dollars has hit their account just in time for Xmas.
Next meeting is planned for February.
Sitting on one's arse collecting full pay may sound like living the dream. The reality is however http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
HR want to drop everything and sack relative as medically unfit for work due to a drinking problem.
Managers want to pursue everything with a vengeance.
Relative who was on statutory sick pay sick has had status changed to suspended on full pay subject to disciplinary action. This status was backdated to the time of the incident so a fistful of dollars has hit their account just in time for Xmas.
Next meeting is planned for February.
Sitting on one's arse collecting full pay may sound like living the dream. The reality is however http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Wednesday 21st December 18:34
davepoth said:
Are they really that stupid? Do they seriously think a tribunal would look at that and say "Hmm, seems legit"?
How long have they been with the company?
Less than two years. I recon they are in rabbit in headlamp mode at the possible liabilities they face rather than worried about tribunals. Various managers have kneejerked putting the company in a difficult position.How long have they been with the company?
Some Gump said:
OP,
At the risk of sounding like a complete weapon...
Is your relative alright, or are they a complete nightmare? Removing toxic employees can be near impossible - and they sometimes sue you. I have a colleague in my wider team that's pure poison. Honestly, we'd be 3 employees larger if it wasn't for her constant t
ttery. We're trying everything to get rid but struggling, and she's likely to sue for an injury that simply never happened. The HSE have even investigated (at significant cost) the root cause of this injury that causes extreme pain, but not a holiday clubbing in benidorm whilst off on sick...
I know nothing of your relative, but you do - so is the company being a total bunch of arse, or is your relative one of "them"? Accusing someone of being an alky is kind of a big call!
Oh they're an alcohol all right. A real one. A successfully recovering one who fell off the wagon whilst subject to disciplinary action. The injury was very much a genuine injury. Prior to the accident they were a good employee but are now completely off the rails.At the risk of sounding like a complete weapon...
Is your relative alright, or are they a complete nightmare? Removing toxic employees can be near impossible - and they sometimes sue you. I have a colleague in my wider team that's pure poison. Honestly, we'd be 3 employees larger if it wasn't for her constant t
ttery. We're trying everything to get rid but struggling, and she's likely to sue for an injury that simply never happened. The HSE have even investigated (at significant cost) the root cause of this injury that causes extreme pain, but not a holiday clubbing in benidorm whilst off on sick...I know nothing of your relative, but you do - so is the company being a total bunch of arse, or is your relative one of "them"? Accusing someone of being an alky is kind of a big call!
edc said:
As desperate as the personal situation may be a business has every right to run it's business like this and dismiss people who can't perform. This normally falls under the banner of capability.
As long as a correct process is carried out there seem to be legitimate grounds for dismissal.
Problem for the employer is their employee was injured catching a falling resident of a care facility. They initially tried to deal with potential liabilities by disciplining the employee for a failure to adhere to the company's health and safety policies which is fair enough.As long as a correct process is carried out there seem to be legitimate grounds for dismissal.
Problem number one is that the employee had never received the relevant casualty handling training.
The company then refused the employee access to their training record (reasonable or any way justifiable?) When the employee obtained those records by email from a junior member of the HR staff who they had requested documents from by phone the employer took further disciplinary action accusing the employee of breaching the terms of their suspension.
Problem number two for the employer is no letter was sent to the employee.
What a staff member did next to address this was particularly stupid. They sent a backdated letter to my relative stating the terms and conditions of their
suspension.
When the employee contacted the private mail carrier and obtained the location collection and delivery dates of the letter and prove they had not been informed of the terms and conditions of their suspension the employer continued to act aggressively by means of disciplinary action by accusing the employee of obtaining the information by deception and dishonestly misusing company emails.
Now my relative accepts the view of the HR manager that they should be let go on the grounds of ability given their current health issues. What they are not going to tolerate is accusations, that their managers refuse to drop, of deception, and dishonesty and misuse of company emails for personal gain.
Yes there are grounds for dismissal based on capability but that is not what they are trying to dismiss my relative for and the employer is a country mile away from having carried out the correct processes.
edc said:
The employee or those around him who may be encouraging or recommending any actions should really consider whether on balance pursuing something is worthwhile. If the person is already stressed and pre-occuppied it sounds like they have much more important things to sort out. Do not under-estimate how stressful it is to go all the way through a process like this. I have supported a couole of people from their employee side but normally am on the employer side. Is it really better for the person to have this dragged out over the course of several months and the better part of over a year? Can they afford to lodge a claim? Do they want to be grilled about any events? Weigh all this up against a possible outcome. The money will be paltry. I would see it as a success if you can manoeuvre the situation where there is a settlement agreement. This will remove all the stressors relating to employment, protect any reputation still going forward and give you a clean start to focus on what is really needed.
This is exactly what my relative wants. Not their job back, not compensation. Just to leave the company with a clean record as no longer medically capable of carrying out their contracted tasks. The problem is they won't leave until the management drop their accusations of what is basically gaining privileged information by deceit for personal gain. This is also what HR suggest as a way round the impass but senior management won't let it go.
Update. February disciplinary meeting has been postponed till March. HR are known to want my relative out the door using "unfit to carry out contracted duties due to poor health". My relative would happily agree to this. Their legal representative feels this is a reasonable outcome. For some reason the service management team will not let go of the gaining privileged information for personal gain by deceit accusations My relative refuses to leave until they feel they are cleared of any accusation of dishonesty.
They haven't worked for almost a year now and are still receiving full pay.
They haven't worked for almost a year now and are still receiving full pay.
edc said:
If your relative is happy with the current status quo then carry on but there is always an option to just resign.
They would if the management team dropped the accusations of dishonesty.Bearing in mind my relative, their legal representation and HR all agree that a dismissal based on health grounds is a reasonable solution it's incredible that they won't let this go.
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