BMW M6 V10 - more problems!
Discussion
This is starting to feel familiar as I'm typing this....
I took my car to Bolton on Tuesday with my daughter, thinking we'd have a lovely daddy-daughter day together, (yeah I know, Bolton isn't lovely, but they have that Steak Bus thing which I love).
Anyway, as I get there, I get stuck in traffic and the car suddenly turns off. I'm thinking "WTF now???". How can a car without a clutch pedal stall like that?
Then....my PDC fails just as I am reversing. I nearly hit someone thinking "yepppp, plenty of room...oh sh*ttt I don't have plenty of room". Big yellow light comes on, PDC failure highlighted in idrive. Great(!)
Wait....it gets better.
On the way home, car starts to feel lumpy as though it is weighed down by an anchor. It's still fast and can out-accelerate anything that wants to have a go but it feels really 'lumpy'. As though a coil is not working or something. Then, under a little acceleration burst in 5th or 6th gear this comes up in the idrive (ignore the date, it's an old picture I took previously)
It's as though the gearbox can't cope with the torque and an error comes up. I wasn't even going fast and was well within the national speed limit.
So, I drove home and very angry I just drove into the BMW dealership and told them to take the car and fix it. It is under warranty and it shouldn't be a problem. One small issue....they are fully booked until the 3rd of September but if they have an opening time slot available or cancellation they'll look at my car.
I know it is Summer and all, but howwww lonnnnggg? Is this the norm with main dealerships, long summer backlogs and the like? I'm not angry at the dealership, they have work to do and good on them but I'm not sure what is more frustrating, the car or being in such a long queue?
Anyway, rant over.
I'd love to say "these are great cars guys" but I just don't feel the love any more unfortunately. Should have stuck to the C63 AMG when I had it
I took my car to Bolton on Tuesday with my daughter, thinking we'd have a lovely daddy-daughter day together, (yeah I know, Bolton isn't lovely, but they have that Steak Bus thing which I love).
Anyway, as I get there, I get stuck in traffic and the car suddenly turns off. I'm thinking "WTF now???". How can a car without a clutch pedal stall like that?
Then....my PDC fails just as I am reversing. I nearly hit someone thinking "yepppp, plenty of room...oh sh*ttt I don't have plenty of room". Big yellow light comes on, PDC failure highlighted in idrive. Great(!)
Wait....it gets better.
On the way home, car starts to feel lumpy as though it is weighed down by an anchor. It's still fast and can out-accelerate anything that wants to have a go but it feels really 'lumpy'. As though a coil is not working or something. Then, under a little acceleration burst in 5th or 6th gear this comes up in the idrive (ignore the date, it's an old picture I took previously)
It's as though the gearbox can't cope with the torque and an error comes up. I wasn't even going fast and was well within the national speed limit.
So, I drove home and very angry I just drove into the BMW dealership and told them to take the car and fix it. It is under warranty and it shouldn't be a problem. One small issue....they are fully booked until the 3rd of September but if they have an opening time slot available or cancellation they'll look at my car.
I know it is Summer and all, but howwww lonnnnggg? Is this the norm with main dealerships, long summer backlogs and the like? I'm not angry at the dealership, they have work to do and good on them but I'm not sure what is more frustrating, the car or being in such a long queue?
Anyway, rant over.
I'd love to say "these are great cars guys" but I just don't feel the love any more unfortunately. Should have stuck to the C63 AMG when I had it
Shaoxter said:
Sorry to hear that. But I think you just got a lemon...
I think so too. To be fair, it has been fine for the last 4 months and then 3 problems occur all within hours of each other.Is it too late to return it? Fight supplying dealer etc?
gaz1234 said:
oh dear. these are high maintenance.
Definately. The idle control seems to be a problem on the S85 V10 from what I can gather. The gearbox issues are all well documented as we all know. On the bright side, no red cog of death has come up. 
(I want to laugh, but inside I feel like crying
)Edited by Schermerhorn on Thursday 14th August 10:38
Soov535 said:
Schermerhorn said:
Shaoxter said:
Sorry to hear that. But I think you just got a lemon...
I think so too. To be fair, it has been fine for the last 4 months and then 3 problems occur all within hours of each other.Is it too late to return it? Fight supplying dealer etc?
Purchased with 67500 miles. Now on 69800 from memory. Just under 2500 miles in less than 9 months.
Soov535 said:
Schermerhorn said:
Soov535 said:
Schermerhorn said:
Shaoxter said:
Sorry to hear that. But I think you just got a lemon...
I think so too. To be fair, it has been fine for the last 4 months and then 3 problems occur all within hours of each other.Is it too late to return it? Fight supplying dealer etc?
Purchased with 67500 miles. Now on 69800 from memory. Just under 2500 miles in less than 9 months.
You get other cars from them? Any commercial leverage?
cosworth330 said:
I've had my E60 M5 for nearly a year and have a BMW warranty but never had to use it, had no issues at all it's been just as reliable as any other car I've had. I know I could get a problem at any time but looking back through your posts you've had a lot issues.
Simon
It has been back 5 times but the issues really have been the VANOS (visit 2 and 3) and the transmissiom issue (visit 4)Simon
Visit 2 and 4 they just cleared faults rather than fixing hardware.
Visit 5 I am hoping for hardware replacement and rectification rather than fault clearing on a computer.
They are a good garage though and service has been very good everytime. Unfortunately my car was not prepped properly and they wanted to hit their monthly sales target and get the sale (imo).
Edited by Schermerhorn on Thursday 14th August 19:37
When it runs right, it runs perfect. When it doesn't then it is a ballache.
A lot of the problems are re-occuring meaning they weren't fixed properly the first time around.
What are my options guys? Can I force supplying dealer to take some sort of actions, buy it back, reimburse me, swap it with something else etc?
Or shall I get it fixed and then sell it (at a loss)?
A lot of the problems are re-occuring meaning they weren't fixed properly the first time around.
What are my options guys? Can I force supplying dealer to take some sort of actions, buy it back, reimburse me, swap it with something else etc?
Or shall I get it fixed and then sell it (at a loss)?
crazy about cars said:
Schermerhorn said:
When it runs right, it runs perfect. When it doesn't then it is a ballache.
A lot of the problems are re-occuring meaning they weren't fixed properly the first time around.
What are my options guys? Can I force supplying dealer to take some sort of actions, buy it back, reimburse me, swap it with something else etc?
Or shall I get it fixed and then sell it (at a loss)?
How long have you had the car? Did you buy it direct from BMW (AUC)? Afaik there is at least 1 years warranty given but I'm not sure if it covers clutches as it could be considered wear and tear.A lot of the problems are re-occuring meaning they weren't fixed properly the first time around.
What are my options guys? Can I force supplying dealer to take some sort of actions, buy it back, reimburse me, swap it with something else etc?
Or shall I get it fixed and then sell it (at a loss)?
Over filling of brake fluid
VANOS light
VANOS valve and pipe replacement
Transmission error
`
Transmission error + idle + PDC (not that bothered about that to be honest)
What a headache!
Please AMG...forgive me. I'll come back!!!
Got an update from BMW today.
They have replaced the thermostat. This was causing the idle problem. The car didn't know if it was running too hot or cold thereby causing an idle problem (from cold starts or even after a run) and shut itself down.
Second issue and most important. It looks as though I may possibly need a new clutch and flywheel. Huddersfield are checking with Leicester BMW to check if the car was prepped properly to AUC standards (which IMO it was not) and which faults and issues were highlighted and sorted (or ignored). They are going to check if the car has ever used launch control which I know it hasn't from me and then get back to me with the findings.
Given the problems I've had with the car from day one re transmission and then later the error codes I am hopeful of a new clutch and flywheel which will hopefully put the entire matter to bed once and for all and have the car running as it should.
Cost of new clutch and flywheel with labour = over £5000! *ouch*
They have replaced the thermostat. This was causing the idle problem. The car didn't know if it was running too hot or cold thereby causing an idle problem (from cold starts or even after a run) and shut itself down.
Second issue and most important. It looks as though I may possibly need a new clutch and flywheel. Huddersfield are checking with Leicester BMW to check if the car was prepped properly to AUC standards (which IMO it was not) and which faults and issues were highlighted and sorted (or ignored). They are going to check if the car has ever used launch control which I know it hasn't from me and then get back to me with the findings.
Given the problems I've had with the car from day one re transmission and then later the error codes I am hopeful of a new clutch and flywheel which will hopefully put the entire matter to bed once and for all and have the car running as it should.
Cost of new clutch and flywheel with labour = over £5000! *ouch*
Shaoxter said:
Given all the issues you've had and the fact that BMW have historically been pretty good replacing clutches under warranty I'd say you have a strong case. Get them to change the clutch release bearing while they're at it.
Deffo, although looking at how it comes as a package, the release bearing is part of the clutch kit; 3 piece kit consisting of clutch plate, cover plate, release bearing (and the flywheel)
SACHS (re-branded as BMW OE) item number 3000951019 if anyone is interested.
Edited by Schermerhorn on Thursday 21st August 16:09
crazy about cars said:
Nice progress - hopefully it works out for you. I'll be interested to know about the launch control investigation outcome.
Never realised clutches are replaced under warranty as I'm pretty sure it's not covered in my E92 AUC warranty.
They normally are not but because I have been having issues since day one with the car, they have - or will - put it down to very shoddy pre sale prep from supplying dealer. Reoccuring problems are more than a coincidence.Never realised clutches are replaced under warranty as I'm pretty sure it's not covered in my E92 AUC warranty.
If it happens again I basically have a strong case to reject the car.
longfellow said:
Hopefully once they've sorted the clutch issue you can start enjoying the car a little more.
Keep us posted and good luck.
Thank you. I certainly intend to.Keep us posted and good luck.
Hopefully, people will learn a LOT from reading my posts re ownership. Even buying AUC doesn't neccesarily mean you're buying something fault free. However, the warranty is the saving grace and can save you thousands in labour and part fees.
JMBMWM5 said:
Schermerhorn said:
It has been back 5 times but the issues really have been the VANOS (visit 2 and 3) and the transmissiom issue (visit 4)
Visit 2 and 4 they just cleared faults rather than fixing hardware.
Visit 5 I am hoping for hardware replacement and rectification rather than fault clearing on a computer.
They are a good garage though and service has been very good everytime. Unfortunately my car was not prepped properly and they wanted to hit their monthly sales target and get the sale (imo).
I just hope for your sake, they are not resetting things till the warrantee expires.Visit 2 and 4 they just cleared faults rather than fixing hardware.
Visit 5 I am hoping for hardware replacement and rectification rather than fault clearing on a computer.
They are a good garage though and service has been very good everytime. Unfortunately my car was not prepped properly and they wanted to hit their monthly sales target and get the sale (imo).
Edited by Schermerhorn on Thursday 14th August 19:37
I recall you had a lot of similar frustrations with your F10 M5 before they were forced into exchanging it.
Slippydiff said:
IIRC clutch and flywheel replacement is not £5k, more like £2.5-3k max.
There's a modified release bearing and guide tube (early versions weren't lubricated properly and picked up causing judder on release and premature wear).
The general consensus was that if the release bearing was at fault, the clutch got replaced under warranty. if the clutch was worn due to normal wear and tear (or use of the launch control) the customer foots the bill.
I'm struggling to see how one dealer establishes whether another has prepared a car to the proper AUC standard ?
Furthermore, to the best of my (limited) knowledge there's no facility for measuring clutch wear on these cars with the gearbox in situ.
Whatever happens, I hope your issues get sorted and it doesn't cost you anything.
I hope so too.There's a modified release bearing and guide tube (early versions weren't lubricated properly and picked up causing judder on release and premature wear).
The general consensus was that if the release bearing was at fault, the clutch got replaced under warranty. if the clutch was worn due to normal wear and tear (or use of the launch control) the customer foots the bill.
I'm struggling to see how one dealer establishes whether another has prepared a car to the proper AUC standard ?
Furthermore, to the best of my (limited) knowledge there's no facility for measuring clutch wear on these cars with the gearbox in situ.
Whatever happens, I hope your issues get sorted and it doesn't cost you anything.
The problems have been persistent (not just transmission but others too) from immediate ownership.
Just waiting on Leicester's reply on Tuesday. I have no intention of paying anything. I should not have to. The car has not been abused by me so they have no cop out clause.
To do less than 2500 miles and go to a garage 5 times to sort issues that should never have been there is comical.
jcolley said:
Schermerhorn said:
Requires flywheel and major software modification from what I can recall.
The M3 DCT, 6 speed, and M5 SMG and 6 speed are all interchangeable from a bolt-up standpoint. Software update to DME is needed for SMG -> 6 speed conversion along with wiring harness change and longitudinal sensor addition (resides inside the SMG module for SMG car). Not impossible, but not worth it IMO. A couple of M5s in the US have been found with M3 6 speed transmissions in them (there's an additional oil pump on the M3 version), working just fine.DCT on the E60 however is an undertaking. The DME requires a flash which was never released by BMW other than the 1 or 2 they built. One of the members on M5Board (ACG if I recall) contacted BMW AG about the possibilty and although he wasn't turned away, it wasn't economically feasable.
As for your car, how are they wandering down the clutch/flyhweel path? What error codes were stored in the SMG and other modules.
Seems odd to have a PDC failure concurrent with the SMG module errors unless system voltage is a factor. I would recommend having the battery load tested and the alternator as well. The E60 was the first platform to incorporate so many microcontroller modules and IMO, they could have coded the low voltage error handling to be a a bit more....graceful.
If you have a 9D12 error (alarm internal battery), it's almost a guarantee there's a battery voltage issue, but a spate of random errors are usually present when the alternator regulator starts to go or the battery is getting on in age.
Another update.
BMW Sandal have told me that once they take the flywheel apart from the clutch, it cannot be re-alligned and a new clutch and flywheel have to be used. The cost of just this taking apart the mechanicals has been the source of contention between Sandan and Synter and hence the delay. Sytner have agreed to the costs today after much much pushing from me, meaning I don't have to pay anything.
If however, they do not find anything wrong with said clutch and flywheel, it cannot be put back together and I will need a new clutch and flywheel meaning £££££. This strikes me as odd, and a cop out clause. They have had the car for 15 days and have highlighted the clutch and gearbox through their own investigation work (15 days man!!!!) and are still unsure if this is the culprit. Wierd.
Now, my argument is this, the car has had repeated Transmission warning errors, I have done minimal mileage on the car, never used launch control and the car has been in and out of Sandal in my 9 months of ownership. Put simply, it has been a lemon and I attribute this down to poor mechanical preparation from supply dealer. Surely, this strengthens my case with BMW Warranty?
I will await the verdict tomorrow. Wish me well guys.
Any advice etc would be welcome.
BMW Sandal have told me that once they take the flywheel apart from the clutch, it cannot be re-alligned and a new clutch and flywheel have to be used. The cost of just this taking apart the mechanicals has been the source of contention between Sandan and Synter and hence the delay. Sytner have agreed to the costs today after much much pushing from me, meaning I don't have to pay anything.
If however, they do not find anything wrong with said clutch and flywheel, it cannot be put back together and I will need a new clutch and flywheel meaning £££££. This strikes me as odd, and a cop out clause. They have had the car for 15 days and have highlighted the clutch and gearbox through their own investigation work (15 days man!!!!) and are still unsure if this is the culprit. Wierd.
Now, my argument is this, the car has had repeated Transmission warning errors, I have done minimal mileage on the car, never used launch control and the car has been in and out of Sandal in my 9 months of ownership. Put simply, it has been a lemon and I attribute this down to poor mechanical preparation from supply dealer. Surely, this strengthens my case with BMW Warranty?
I will await the verdict tomorrow. Wish me well guys.
Any advice etc would be welcome.
AW10 said:
Schermerhorn said:
Another update.
BMW Sandal have told me that once they take the flywheel apart from the clutch, it cannot be re-alligned and a new clutch and flywheel have to be used.
This is false. The clutch/pressure plate assembly consists of 4 pieces which can be separated from one another (like layers on a cake) but they must be re-assembled in the same rotational orientation and then a special BMW tool is used (part number 83 30 0 495 136) to hold them together when the assembly is reinstalled. (A new clutch/pressure plate assembly is held together with cable ties until after it's installed.) It sounds like they either don't know the M5/M6 clutch very well (hard to believe given that the first cars are now almost 10 years old) or they're using one of these on you: http://engineerofknowledge.wordpress.com/2012/04/0...BMW Sandal have told me that once they take the flywheel apart from the clutch, it cannot be re-alligned and a new clutch and flywheel have to be used.
AW10 said:
Probably more than you ever want to know about installing/removing the clutch - http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/clutch-removalrep...
Wow...looks more complicated than I thought! No wonder i've been told xyz by BMW! Or maybe the job scares them?Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff