M3 E36 dodgy "hopping" idle
Discussion
Hello
My dad's vehicle recently had a new folding soft top roof fitted. The person who did it said that a BMW main agent needs to "intitialise" it. When we got the car back from the guy a dodgy idle was evident where it hops up and down. The car was stood for a fair few weeks so thought maybe the car just needs to go on a good run to clear it, but this didn't help.
As the car was going into our local dealer we thought that we may as well let them diagnose it. A couple of days or so later they thought that it could be the VANOS at fault (the VANOS was changed by a local BMW specialist 6 years ago to this month and has only covered 18-20k miles).
I've done a bit of research into symptoms of a dodgy rough idle & VANOS problems etc. Quite a bit points to the Idle Control Valve, Exhaust Advance Solenoid, weak flexi section to exhaust manifold , VANOS seals / o-rings / gaskets etc. Other thread on here
Today, I went to the dealer to find out some more. They took me into the workshop where the technician (senior, apparently) said that he thinks it's a timing issue. I wish I took a photo of the state of dismantle the engine bay was in (I might do tomorrow when I go to test drive an i8). The cam shaft(s) were exposed, but the silver VANOS covers seemed to be untouched. The technician used some instrument which was inserted into a hole in the block to demonstrate to me that on one side it was flush, but when he rotated the instrument it wasn't flush. I don't know if what he showed me had any significance to the problem nor whether he was fobbing me off. I can be cynical with ANYONE in the motor trade.
Later today the service advisor called me and left a voicemail message telling me that he has spoken further with the technician etc and that they believe there are two options now left on the vehicle.
Option 1 - adjust timing, rebuild vehicle and test it. It may be that that solves the problem but then again it may be that it needs the "VANOS transmission unit" replacing afterwards. £1,340.39!! including VAT (this figure already includes oil service @ £173), investigation, timing check)
Option 2 - replace VANOS transmission unit and adjust timing (he said that the timing has to be adjusted when the transmission unit is replaced, that's why including both. This quote £3,168.37 including the VAT!!!
I have a call recording app on my phone (ultra useful) so will upload the 01m:47s recording to Dropbox, share it and provide the link below. I think it might be useful to listen to the guy's tone of voice and for feedback to be provided.
Call recording
Can anyone help or advise with a) against what the dealer is saying and b) advice re. the dodgy idle, please?
My dad's vehicle recently had a new folding soft top roof fitted. The person who did it said that a BMW main agent needs to "intitialise" it. When we got the car back from the guy a dodgy idle was evident where it hops up and down. The car was stood for a fair few weeks so thought maybe the car just needs to go on a good run to clear it, but this didn't help.
As the car was going into our local dealer we thought that we may as well let them diagnose it. A couple of days or so later they thought that it could be the VANOS at fault (the VANOS was changed by a local BMW specialist 6 years ago to this month and has only covered 18-20k miles).
I've done a bit of research into symptoms of a dodgy rough idle & VANOS problems etc. Quite a bit points to the Idle Control Valve, Exhaust Advance Solenoid, weak flexi section to exhaust manifold , VANOS seals / o-rings / gaskets etc. Other thread on here
Today, I went to the dealer to find out some more. They took me into the workshop where the technician (senior, apparently) said that he thinks it's a timing issue. I wish I took a photo of the state of dismantle the engine bay was in (I might do tomorrow when I go to test drive an i8). The cam shaft(s) were exposed, but the silver VANOS covers seemed to be untouched. The technician used some instrument which was inserted into a hole in the block to demonstrate to me that on one side it was flush, but when he rotated the instrument it wasn't flush. I don't know if what he showed me had any significance to the problem nor whether he was fobbing me off. I can be cynical with ANYONE in the motor trade.
Later today the service advisor called me and left a voicemail message telling me that he has spoken further with the technician etc and that they believe there are two options now left on the vehicle.
Option 1 - adjust timing, rebuild vehicle and test it. It may be that that solves the problem but then again it may be that it needs the "VANOS transmission unit" replacing afterwards. £1,340.39!! including VAT (this figure already includes oil service @ £173), investigation, timing check)
Option 2 - replace VANOS transmission unit and adjust timing (he said that the timing has to be adjusted when the transmission unit is replaced, that's why including both. This quote £3,168.37 including the VAT!!!
I have a call recording app on my phone (ultra useful) so will upload the 01m:47s recording to Dropbox, share it and provide the link below. I think it might be useful to listen to the guy's tone of voice and for feedback to be provided.
Call recording
Can anyone help or advise with a) against what the dealer is saying and b) advice re. the dodgy idle, please?
I understand. Nothing personal was mentioned in the recording apart from a first name or two.
Well I called them this morning at 0830 and requested they put the bits of the engine back together (who knows? the problem may even miraculously have been cured now, but maybe that's being a little optimistic) so we're going down shortly. I want second, third, ...., seventh opinions on this so will be calling and visiting umpteen specialists including three independent specialists that have done work on the carriage in the past. The car simply only went to BMW (otherwise we would have gone to a specialist plus I have a very good relationship with my local VW dealer and hoped for something similar with BMW) for its new roof to be initialised, but even that they said is misaligned so they cannot do it tut...
Plus, I think getting the car out of the dealer in a state of dismantle and then taking to a specialist sounds like a good idea but many of them might say "we need to hear the rough idle etc before we do anything" so the engine would have to be put back together anyway
Well I called them this morning at 0830 and requested they put the bits of the engine back together (who knows? the problem may even miraculously have been cured now, but maybe that's being a little optimistic) so we're going down shortly. I want second, third, ...., seventh opinions on this so will be calling and visiting umpteen specialists including three independent specialists that have done work on the carriage in the past. The car simply only went to BMW (otherwise we would have gone to a specialist plus I have a very good relationship with my local VW dealer and hoped for something similar with BMW) for its new roof to be initialised, but even that they said is misaligned so they cannot do it tut...
Plus, I think getting the car out of the dealer in a state of dismantle and then taking to a specialist sounds like a good idea but many of them might say "we need to hear the rough idle etc before we do anything" so the engine would have to be put back together anyway
Edited by Ignatius1 on Wednesday 27th August 14:12
NelsonR32 said:
Sounds like the solenoid valve soldering has broken off/worn away.
Mr Vanos will fit a completely refurbished one for £950
950?! Is that a typo?Mr Vanos will fit a completely refurbished one for £950
To note that I called BMW today and requested they do nothing else except reassemble the engine. We went down some hours later. I went for the test drive in an i8 and, just for the record, would like to comment on how I was blown away by this incredible machine. I'VE FALLEN IN LOVE WITH IT.
So, we then sat down with the service people. Some minutes later I requested the Service Mgr. He seemed quite straightforward actually and talked some sense. Fault codes from the DME diagnosis and other job card documents have been photocopied and taken away for our own reference. Later, we negotiated costs and made payment of £436.**. That figure included oil service (£173.**), diagnostic (£99) and timing investigation (158.**). Apparently, it was a master technician that has been working on the car. The person (sales) sat next to me in the i8 told me this as did the service people, so maybe it is true.
Shortly after, we went out and ignited the M3's engine. Strangely, the rough "hopping" idle seemed to have vanished. Performance doesn't seem bad. Low end torque may have improved a bit - I'm not sure, though it does generally seem to run smoother.
Tomorrow we'll be taking the car to the same specialist that we got to fit a new VANOS unit 6 years ago. We may visit one or two other specialists because we need as many opinions as possible. In a way it would be good and bad for the dodgy idle symptom to return. The fault codes are still stored in memory anyway so any other technician should see them, if still causing issues. I don't have the paperwork with me right now, though.
Thank you for all informative replies so far.
I've now been able to scan all diagnostic documents including the technician's report from the dealer and shared a link to the PDF on Dropbox here.
The carriage is still running much smoother with a constant normal idle though I haven't properly driven it so cannot comment on performance. BMW told me that the fault codes should still be in the DME, but would it be a good idea to have these erased? If errors and faults still exist, would they sort of show up straight away after a diagnostic test? I guess they would. This way, removing the codes might be a good way of starting fresh. Perhaps somehow the problems have miraculously been rectified, but I might be being a little too optimistic.
We are still looking to find time to get the car to the specialist that replaced the VANOS for us back in August/September 2008. We want second, third, eighth opinions.
I've now been able to scan all diagnostic documents including the technician's report from the dealer and shared a link to the PDF on Dropbox here.
The carriage is still running much smoother with a constant normal idle though I haven't properly driven it so cannot comment on performance. BMW told me that the fault codes should still be in the DME, but would it be a good idea to have these erased? If errors and faults still exist, would they sort of show up straight away after a diagnostic test? I guess they would. This way, removing the codes might be a good way of starting fresh. Perhaps somehow the problems have miraculously been rectified, but I might be being a little too optimistic.
We are still looking to find time to get the car to the specialist that replaced the VANOS for us back in August/September 2008. We want second, third, eighth opinions.
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