Refinement/fun

[bennyboysvuk]

I know it has been said before that as previous models have been superseded, the new model is often slated for not being as much fun as its predecessor. However, I feel that BMW have got to the point where the cars are far, far less of an event these days. They're becoming more like fast Audis in that they're quiet and refined, yet go point to point very quickly, without raising the heart rate.

I know it's subjective, but I truly feel that my favourite M-cars are now firmly in the past, never to be repeated. I don't think any every day car manufacturer offers what I really want in a car these days, that mix of usability and fun. BMW were the last to offer such a car, but the fun has been refined out of them. Sure, they've got faster and have more grip, which is great on track, but it all seems so digital compared to yesterday's analogue cars.

Anyone else feeling the same?

[bennyboysvuk]

I do find the later cars comparatively frustrating, you can't just get in and exceed grip limits in them. They have safe driving modes for the days when you want it to be a pussycat. I never want a 400hp plus car to feel like that. It should be liable to spin up if I'm ham fisted with it. The sound track should be more mechanical and when I reach three figure speeds I should know about it. Full bore acceleration shouldn't be something you can still hold a sensible volume conversation over.

I just feel like the new cars are very, very polished, which takes the fun out of it.

Immense power can be fun, but add turbo lag, quieter cars overall and a load of driving modes when one is all you really need and it all seems a bit disappointing.

[bennyboysvuk]

rs4al said:

Hmmm, in my limited time in the M4, it definitely is not that refined or homogenised.

Maybe it's the manual box but I can hear the diff, hear the gears, the engine whines, snorts and bangs nicely in a very good way, active sound can be a bit of a pain at times when you want it quiet cruising on the motorway and the cold start is definitely neighbour upsetting.

I find it frustrating that during a cold-start when the wastegate is open and the noise isn't being strangled by the turbo is when the car sounds at its best, which sadly lasts for a very short time, during which it can't be thrashed anyway. It's as if it starts with a big raucous promise and then goes all quiet on you after you get moving.

[bennyboysvuk]

Krupp Stahl said:

This thread is basically people just saying that whatever car they happen to own is the best. It possibly a bit pointless.

You've got to laugh at humanity really. It's not about the merits or otherwise of the cars at all.

If you're looking at it like that, then perhaps it comes down to the level at which the individual's fight or flight response kicks in and the adrenaline begins to flow. The old stuff let you know about speed, began sliding earlier on and had no electronic safety-net, which is bound to trigger more survival responses than feeling cocooned and comfortable with radio 4 clearly audible in the background.

[bennyboysvuk]

Krupp Stahl said:

Over time, the Motorsport Division has become a brand in its own right and so has to cater for everyone who is likely to buy it. The vehicles seem to have become fatter and heavier in the process and are more laden with options to cater for this 'new' market.

Where does one go from here then? I'm not sure there's a manufacturer left that makes a car that has what older BMWs M cars had:

Normally aspirated
RWD
LSD equipped
Front-engined
4 seater
No driving modes
No hazard warning lights coming on when you brake hard
Noisy enough inside that you can hear the sound of the engine and exhaust

[bennyboysvuk]

Crackie said:

Singer's not really a 4 seater and certainly not front engined.

Panamera S ?? Not sure if has an LSD or not ?? Engine spec reads like a modern day E39 M5; fugly though.

Not a bad suggestion, but I'd imagine it is hugely refined and well, it's just huge at over 5 metres long!

[bennyboysvuk]

Rick448 said:

Well I want a car which is fairly quick and handles well enough to have some fun as well as being practical enough to carry my little one in comfort and safety. The M3 does that for me. Having just had a play in the wet I can't comprehend how anyone can say these cars are too refined. Even in efficiency more and full DSC engaged a boot full of throttle has the rear snaking whilst propelling the car forward at a fair rate of knots. With MDM and sport plus selected it is quite a handful. I agree these are a bit on the heavy side but I like my creature comforts in a car. I do wonder how many of the detractors have driven one of these cars in anger. For what it's worth I don't care what others think about my choice of car as it was my choice. I just think some of the comments are little odd. At the end of the day no one is forcing anyone to buy these cars. Maybe an Ariel Atom or Caterham would suit those wanting less refinement.

It's a great car that you have there and it's horses for courses, but for me, your car would be better if it was quite a bit smaller, was normally aspirated, had no driving modes, was noisier inside, had a manual gearbox and no DSC. I still want to carry my son around in the child seat in the back so Caterhams and the like are out. Nobody makes a car like this any more so if one wants to buy a new car like this, they can't.

[bennyboysvuk]

iguana said:

Benderboy- try a gt86 with a supercharger, ticks most of yr boxes except the n/a part.

Hello old pal. That sounds like it could be a goer actually. Have you had a go in one? What's the throttle response like? Is it as crisp as that beautiful old avus blue M3?

[bennyboysvuk]

Cheers for the ideas Lizardo.

The only thing putting me off of the GT86 is the number of cylinders and the associated soundtrack, plus the wife is a self-confessed badge snob. I'll have to check the '86 out closer to when I want to switch.

A 350z 4 seater. That's an interesting thought, but might be out on badge snobbishness and I thought the 350 was inferior to my old E46 M3, when I test drove one many moons ago.

I love the idea of the 1m, but I'm not sure I can get past the turbo. I'm always disappointed with turbos. I even found it frustrating in the VX220T.

The 4dr manual M3 could be a goer, but there are definitely things about the E90 that I would have to put up with as a road car. e.g. no cruise with DSC off and with DSC on it's a bit sensitive/sensible. Plus, it feels huge and a bit heavy to thread down small b-roads.

I'm actually leaning towards going much older and if I can convince the missus that an old car is a good idea then revisiting E36/46 M3s again. I need to wait until my son is old enough to easily clamber into a car seat first though. My head's all over the place with replacement ideas for the M135i. I guess time will tell. There's always the thought of a 911 too, but I don't want to spend the money and be disappointed, plus 911s with LSDs are rare as rocking horse poo. If only it could be as simple as picking a bike.

[bennyboysvuk]

Rick448 said:

Turbos have come on a long way in recent years and are very good now. The M3 has very little if any perceptible lag and the torque from low down is superb, it also likes to be revved so you get the best of both worlds. I'm not sure why you would need to have DSC turned off if you had cruise control activated though I've not tested the E9x M cars but I find the MDM mode to be really good on the road (in the dry)

I think until electrically assisted turbos come along, there will always be turbo lag with a traditional system (unless a rally-esque anti-lag system is in place, but that's a bit wild for the road). The turbos these days are way better than even turbos of the early 2000s, but they're still laggy enough to mean that you can feel the difference in power delivery between a good NA engine and a similarly powerful turbo engine.

DSC turned off is just my preference. I hate it when all the conditions come together and I find myself exiting a completely deserted roundabout in the wet with the DSC light flashing away on the dashboard because when I selected cruise control 3 miles ago it cancelled my previously selected DSC-off option. Once I've set a setting, it should remain set. This was correct in the E46 M3, but they broke it in the models that followed the E46.

I don't know what sort of angles the MDM would let you get away with. If it's anything like Sport+ mode in the M135i, it certainly wouldn't allow a half turn of lock kind of slide.