E61 Clutch Judder repair result (at last)

[ecain63]

Well, following on from this topic http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0... i can now give you a final answer.

In a nutshell; it is a 100% successful result. My research and theory were 100% correct and the exact fault diagnosis was that the guide bush and bearing were dry and they were hanging up on the clutch fork due to the dragging. This is the 'judder' you feel as you pull away in 1st. The clutch and fly were worn out due to the slippage on take off but it was easy to see this wasnt just a worn clutch issue. I asked the techs to take some pics of the strip down / rebuild and i'll hopefully get them when i collect my car.

So, the big question is, 'is it covered by warranty or goodwill?'. Hell yeah!!! The warranty covers the guide bush and bearing failure so there is no cost to me. That's just saved me £2500, so for all you guys looking to buy into E60 or E61 ownership, let this be the proof of the pudding that you need a warranty!

Obviously my thorough research and persistant nagging paid off here but i cant help but feel that i also benefited from having a fantastic team working on my behalf at Scotthall BMW near Southampton. At the end of the day these are the guys you have to put your faith in to find the true fault and not just to write it off as wear and tear. I really dont think i'd have got the same result at my local dealer. God, i'd love to name and shame those guys!! I guess the big thanks goes to them and they'll be rewarded with copious amounts of lager when i collect the car, they really were very helpfull, polite and willing to listen to my side of the story. I think a few dealers could learn a thing or two from them.

To recap, if you have a judder and have a BMW warranty then the first thing you need to do is search the forum for my 'judder' threads. Do some of your own back up research so you know exactly what your looking at. Find a good dealer, as i did and get them to test drive the car before they strip it. Make note of odd noises, weird feelings etc and then press the theory about the guide bush and bearing. From there book it in and BMW should do the rest. I was bricking it until this morning but now im doing cartwheels.

If you dont have a warranty then fear not. Its only a 4.5hr job to refit a clutch and fly so you need to find a good indy. Read this http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/xforums/topic.asp?h=0... as it gives you the costings and part numbers of the OEM parts via Euro Car Parts. BMW charge £1200 for the flywheel wheras LUK produce them for £500 or so, and its the same part in a differnt box. I priced up a complete job at an indy at £1300 to £1400 inclusive of vat etc. This should help with the sleepless nights!!

I hope this cheerfull end to the saga will help other owners in the future as there now seems to be cause to believe the theory. If you think your local stealer wont get you the result to feel you deserve, find a new one. If you find a good stealer and they cant place the blame on the above then the chances are it wasnt broken and you just needed a new cluth, but thats the risk. I took it and won.

Im off for a celebratory pint now, enjoy your avo and i'll see you later.

Eddie

[ecain63]

BOR said:

Congratulations. Good news.

A question that remains open, is whether it would make financial sense, to re-lube/replace the thrust bearing, say, half-way through the life of the clutch. Precautionary maintenance before it causes increased wear/damage to the clucth and flywheel.

Suppose you could yeah. Pay an indy £350 to do it rather than £700 at BMW. Your call.

[ecain63]

PM'd.

[ecain63]

kev b said:

I am glad things turned out well in the end, well done for persevering.
What caused the bearing sleeve grease to dry up like that?

Insufficient or wrong grade of grease is normally the cause. The clutch comes as a kit comprising clutch pack, fork, bearing, adjustment tools and some bolts. The bearing is packaged 'dry' from the factory requiring the fitter to grease it and the guide bush with a specific grease that only bmw supply. Use the wrong stuff and it'll burn off and overheat creating a lot of friction and accelerated wear of the bearing followed by the clutch parts, use nothing and it'll overheat even quicker and burn out the bush, bearing and eventually the clutch and fly. The friction between the bush and bearing causes the surfaces to mark and score resulting in an uneven movement of the parts. This is the judder, caused by the clutch plates not meeting the fly smoothly. The clutch fork will also catch on the moving parts as they will be in the wrong place at the wrong time. All in, no grease a recipe for failure.

Edited by ecain63 on Tuesday 8th March 18:03

[ecain63]

danjp said:

Well done Eddie! Just came home from an hour & a half drive, and juddering started as soon as I hit stop start traffic. I guess the heating up of the parts causes them to expand and stick, as on short journeys I don't get this issue. My local supplying dealer is Scotthall Stirling Corner - I wonder if they share info company wide.. I'm not sure I should book it in if there is going to be any wrangling as mostly its not a bother..

The thing is that it'll get worse over time. In my opinion and very recent experience i'd book it in for a test drive / diagnostics session with your dealer so that it gets on the system. Tell them it only happens rarely, like mine did and they'll probably tell you to go away and come back when it gets worse. Mention the bearing and bush issue, his response will tell you whether or not he is interested in your case. If they dont want to play ball or listen to you then you'll know to go elsewhere.

From there take it away and wait for it to judder more regularly. If your dealer is any good they will strip the box and find what mine found. If you have low mileage (below 50k) then tell them you are not happy that its happened so early on. If its above 50k then they might not be so receptive, but try anyway. Tell them that if the warranty wont cover it then you want them to go down the 'goodwill' path. From there its in BMW's hands. Another thing i did was print copies of the pictures in my other thread, the ones of the damaged bearings and bush. I gave them to the dealer when i dropped the car off on saturday. This will give them something to focus on and hopefully steer them in a positive direction. Good luck.

Eddie

[ecain63]

danjp said:

41K and still under AUC warranty. Wise words I think, I'll get them aware of the issue and see how interested they are. I guess even warranty work is money for them..

Exactly. Everyone wins.

[ecain63]

thegreatdogwood said:

That reminds me that when I recommended the OP tries Scothalls that I forgot to say they are truly awful at washing cars so always turn down the valet offer

Same as my local dealer then. Might be a tad rude if I turned them down seeing as they have just saved me some serious cash. Rough with the smooth there me thinks.

[ecain63]

danjp said:

Had a chat at my local dealer.. Seemed to concur that it might be the guide bush, however wont know etc etc.. However, I was a little perturbed that the Master Tech was adamant it was a dual clutch unit & that the guide bush & bearing were dry parts..? Really?

Maybe you should PM me your service advisor details as well Eddie, as it might be worth a trip to make sure the people dealing with it know whats what! Although, what are BMWUK gonna think when they see a 'clutch' of identical claims appearing at the same dealership!

Dual clutch: No, Twin Plate Clutch: Yes! The bush should most definately need to be greased to allow the bearing to move freely. I'll PM you my mans details. I wouldnt worry too much about having 2 claims from the same dealer, it'll just go to prove that they know what they are looking for and might even result in a recall.

Didnt get my car back today as they are waiting for a couple of parts to come in but all going well i'll be back in the M this time tomorrow. Got withdrawl symptoms.

Eddie

[ecain63]

Got the car back this afternoon and all is well. The handover was seemless and the staff were very helpfull and attentive. They ran me through the sequence of events and the obvious issue with the bearing and bush. Everything made sense and they were only too pleased to have had the photos and research info for reference during the job. I repaid their hospitality with some lager as promised and off i went.

To compare the gear shifts before and after the new clutch and fly is very easy. Asside from the loss of the judder the actual shifts between gear are now absolutely flawless. No jerking, clunking, clicking or any feeling of mechanical engagment. The 30 mile drive home was very pleasant and i made full use of every setting to compare the old and new. In a nutshell its a job well done and i'm happy!

I did have a chat with the tech before i left about other owners and the similar issues they were having. His response was, 'not a problem, we like having the work, and at the end of the day BMW are paying for it'! So take it from that comment that they will be working in your faviur rather than just ticking the boxes. He acknowledged that this was now an issue they will recognise in the future and said that if more similar cases appear then they will press BMWUK for a resolution / recall. Result all round there i think.

So, all in i think we got a very good result there. Not just for me, but for anyone else who reads this and has the judder issue. Obviously Scotthall BMW will not just process all these cases as 'warranty jobs' as there are some cars our there that are simply worn out and at the end of the day they have to be honest about their work, but as ive said already they will look for a warranty / goodwill solution before pressing the customer for payment from their own pocket. In my opinion thats a massive weight off any M5/M6 owners shoulders.

On that happy note im off. Thanks for your time and your support,

Eddie

[ecain63]

T7mbo1 said:

Hi Eddie
I remember you from the RS246 forum, as I had an RS6 Avant before I swapped to my current 2006 M6.
I love the car to bits (apart from the fuel thirst) but I am getting issues with my clutch I think. When I do a short trip in the car, there is no problem. However if the trip is over say 30 miles, I get juddering from the clutch when pulling away in 1st. It is also virtually impossible to make a smooth start from 1st ie the power comes on immediately like a light switch!
Are these the sort of symptoms you were having?
Must say, we need the equivalent of a Grizz for these V10's !!

Hi mate, good to see you are still around. I think it was a good time to move from the C5's, have you seen the resale values lately? Ouch!!!

As for your judder issue. In a word, YES! What you are experiencing in my opinion is the bearing catching / dragging on the guide bush. Once it warms up (ie after the 30 miles) the bush expands, making it difficult for the bearing to move along the bush - this is the judder! It'll only get worse.

What is the mileage on the car? If the mileage is high, ie above 50/60k then they might not entertain it, blaming it on normal wear and tear, unless of course its a clear cut issue like mine was. If its sub 50k then you need to print off the pics on my first couple of threads and head down to your dealer. See what they say, but dont take any crap.

Eddie

[ecain63]

Dave 321 said:

Interesting to see what you think in 3k miles, Ill put money on it you will find more clunky! The reset of clutch adaptations hides the true flaw in these cars!

Good morning Mr Morale. Lol. 3k is 6 months for me so we shall see what happens.

[ecain63]

Winner! Im chuffed that my efforts have gone some way to helping another M5 owner. Hope its the first of many good results.

Eddie

[ecain63]

I've sent you an email mate.

[ecain63]

No worries mate, glad to help. When you get the new clutch fitted just remeber never to use Auto mode ever again and always pull away in 1st (S3 or higher).

[ecain63]

Air Support said:

Eddie

I've followed this thread with interest as I have a 55 plate with 47,000 miles on with some occasional judder round town.
As I don't like doing massive revs or speeds in town when pulling away, I've adopted a pull away in 2nd in S5 mode. I thought this might be OK as the automode does do 2nd gear starts. Do you think my driving mode might be causing damage?

I'd appreciate your thought please.

Andrew

Hi mate.

Is this the cars original clutch? If so that's bloody low mileage for the age.

On topic, yes I'd say your driving methods won't be helping your clutch economy. Pulling away in 2nd is probably the worst thing you can do in these beasts. In 2nd you have to rev higher, the clutch will take longer to engage fully and in turn wear will be accelerated. Although its jerky, the best method of pulling away in the V10 SMG is in S5/6, 1st gear and not too soft on the throttle. It will feel harsh but this is in fact the way they are meant to be driven. With this method the clutch is forced to engage very quickly thus reducing any slippage or riding and much reducing wear on the friction surfaces.

Eddie

[ecain63]

No probs mate. Either way, I think getting out of auto mode and into paddle mode is gonna help you big time. It might be odd for a few weeks but your clutch and wallet will thank you for it in the long run.

With regards to the judder, could you describe exactly what you are experiencing and under what conditions? The component failure vs actual wear argument needs a few more details before we can start choosing sides.

Eddie

[ecain63]

Right, that's quite interesting as you have the same symptoms I had. Your cars age also points a finger as they were treated to release bearings that had insufficient lubrication.
A worn clutch will fail very quickly on these cars and normally won't give you any warning. The judder is a symptom normally associated with something sticking when it shouldn't. As yours is only doing it after it gets warm I'd be inclined to push for a release bearing / guide bush inspection.

Have you read all of my related threads and seen the pics? Where in the UK are you?

Also have you used launch control at all?

Eddie

[ecain63]

If you are in Portsmouth you are in luck. Send me an email and I'll give you some more pointers.

Eddie

[ecain63]

Responded as per email.

Clear cut case there of no grease on bearing / bush. Note the scoring and rough surface which causes the sticking and juddering.

Good luck mate.

[ecain63]

Glad to be of help mate. Like I said on the phone to you, its plainly obvious the difference between worn parts and broken / damaged parts. Yours was a clear cut case of no-lube on the guide bush / release bearing.

So that's gotta be circa 10 grand I've saved PHers since my epic in March, hope they don't black list me for my efforts. Lol

Make sure you run it in for afew weeks before you give it the beans.

Eddie