Advice needed - Sub - v- sub-alike
Discussion
Apologies for the lengthy post, but I'm in a quandary.... For many years, I aspired to a Tag Carrera, but then I found this forum.... 
The idea was shelved, and I carried on with my trusty daily Seiko 7T32 panda, my Skagen or occasionally my birth-year (1961) gold Smiths
Then, for some reason, despite many years of regarding Rolex as unattainable, I ventured onto a thread about Submariners and I found the watch I wanted - or at least I found the watch I really liked the look of - black 'no-date' Sub
Much more forum exploration yielded some alternatives - Steinhart Ocean 1 Vintage red, Longines Hydroconquest and even a Seiko or two
So - here's the dilemma - do I drop £5k on a new Sub, £4k - £4.5k on a s/h, or much less on a decent sub-alike? Here's my logic so far....
For the Sub
1) I'll be able to afford it in cash in March when some share options come up, or I could pounce now with a hefty deposit and some 0% finance if the right deal was spotted
2) If I bale out and get a Steinhart or Hydroconquest, will I constantly be thinking "it's still trying to look like the 'halo' model" - also, might I also be worried that others would look at an homage and think "couldn't afford the real thing then...."
3) There's little chance of me losing much money on it, so if I want / need to sell later, its going to be worth £4k+ all day long
4) I REALLY like the look of the Sub, and after trying it on yesterday, I'm starting to appreciate the "feel" of quality - compared with the stuff that's normally on my wrist, it was simply in another league - very satisfying to hold and touch
Against the Sub
1) It will be a daily wearer - is it really a good idea to wear a £5k watch all day, every day?
2) Even the Steinhart would be more money than I've ever spent on a watch before, so should I dip a toe in the water with a (very) reasonably priced watch that looks very similar before I go for the real thing?
3) My weekend car could do with a respray, and I probably won't be able to afford the Sub and the paint
4) 95% of the people I know wouldn't recognise probably wouldn't recognise a Rolex (in fact they probably wouldn't even know that the Steinhart or HC were decent watches and hadn't come from the Argos sale)
5) A quick poll of complete watch novices (Wifey and my two sons) with a side-by-side piccy of the Sub and the Steinhart resulted in indecision over which looked best - Rolex may just have come out on top, but it was a close-run thing
6) Despite being a Company director, I'm certainly not powerfully built and I was a little unsure about how the Sub would look on my skinny wrists. However, a quick visit to the local Rolex AD in Lichfield to try it on showed that it was just fine - probably the largest that wouldn't look silly on my wrists, but perfectly acceptable. It was listed at £5k at the dealers, and they very politely rebuked my enquiry about a discount - well, you have to try, don't you? Still, at least they had it in stock, which I'm led to believe isn't always the case - some websites even mention waiting lists.
My concern is that I'm considering a Rolex for the wrong reasons - yes, I know they are pretty much the pinnacle for the majority of people, but I find myself wondering if the ONLY reason I want it is because its aspirational, not because its an outstanding timepiece and a masterpiece of engineering. Even worse, I'm wondering if I (think) I want the Sub because others will think better of me. I really don't believe that to be the case, but I can't be sure. Have others gone through the same doubts when considering their first "proper" watch?
So - I'm turning to the PH collective for some wisdom - I simply want to be convinced in one direction or the other - if it turns out that I'm being daft and that a sub £1k watch is right for me, then I'll happily accept the advice (and I'll probably press the button on the Steinhart before the year is out). If it turns out that the respray can wait and I should join the hallowed ranks of Rolex owners, then the shares will be sold and the deed will be done in March.
The idea was shelved, and I carried on with my trusty daily Seiko 7T32 panda, my Skagen or occasionally my birth-year (1961) gold SmithsThen, for some reason, despite many years of regarding Rolex as unattainable, I ventured onto a thread about Submariners and I found the watch I wanted - or at least I found the watch I really liked the look of - black 'no-date' Sub
Much more forum exploration yielded some alternatives - Steinhart Ocean 1 Vintage red, Longines Hydroconquest and even a Seiko or two
So - here's the dilemma - do I drop £5k on a new Sub, £4k - £4.5k on a s/h, or much less on a decent sub-alike? Here's my logic so far....
For the Sub
1) I'll be able to afford it in cash in March when some share options come up, or I could pounce now with a hefty deposit and some 0% finance if the right deal was spotted
2) If I bale out and get a Steinhart or Hydroconquest, will I constantly be thinking "it's still trying to look like the 'halo' model" - also, might I also be worried that others would look at an homage and think "couldn't afford the real thing then...."
3) There's little chance of me losing much money on it, so if I want / need to sell later, its going to be worth £4k+ all day long
4) I REALLY like the look of the Sub, and after trying it on yesterday, I'm starting to appreciate the "feel" of quality - compared with the stuff that's normally on my wrist, it was simply in another league - very satisfying to hold and touch
Against the Sub
1) It will be a daily wearer - is it really a good idea to wear a £5k watch all day, every day?
2) Even the Steinhart would be more money than I've ever spent on a watch before, so should I dip a toe in the water with a (very) reasonably priced watch that looks very similar before I go for the real thing?
3) My weekend car could do with a respray, and I probably won't be able to afford the Sub and the paint
4) 95% of the people I know wouldn't recognise probably wouldn't recognise a Rolex (in fact they probably wouldn't even know that the Steinhart or HC were decent watches and hadn't come from the Argos sale)
5) A quick poll of complete watch novices (Wifey and my two sons) with a side-by-side piccy of the Sub and the Steinhart resulted in indecision over which looked best - Rolex may just have come out on top, but it was a close-run thing
6) Despite being a Company director, I'm certainly not powerfully built and I was a little unsure about how the Sub would look on my skinny wrists. However, a quick visit to the local Rolex AD in Lichfield to try it on showed that it was just fine - probably the largest that wouldn't look silly on my wrists, but perfectly acceptable. It was listed at £5k at the dealers, and they very politely rebuked my enquiry about a discount - well, you have to try, don't you? Still, at least they had it in stock, which I'm led to believe isn't always the case - some websites even mention waiting lists.
My concern is that I'm considering a Rolex for the wrong reasons - yes, I know they are pretty much the pinnacle for the majority of people, but I find myself wondering if the ONLY reason I want it is because its aspirational, not because its an outstanding timepiece and a masterpiece of engineering. Even worse, I'm wondering if I (think) I want the Sub because others will think better of me. I really don't believe that to be the case, but I can't be sure. Have others gone through the same doubts when considering their first "proper" watch?
So - I'm turning to the PH collective for some wisdom - I simply want to be convinced in one direction or the other - if it turns out that I'm being daft and that a sub £1k watch is right for me, then I'll happily accept the advice (and I'll probably press the button on the Steinhart before the year is out). If it turns out that the respray can wait and I should join the hallowed ranks of Rolex owners, then the shares will be sold and the deed will be done in March.
Thanks for the advice so far - I'm liking the balance between my choices - keep it coming....
To answer a few of the comments made so far:-
No, my funds are far from limitless - this would be a substantial purchase for me, but its certainly within my means.
I'm generally very good with watches - after around 20 years with the Seiko, I have a couple of very minor scratches to the glass and general lights scratches on the case - this is despite wearing it when working on the car or the house. TBH, I'd probably not risk damaging a Sub if I decided to buy - I would probably switch to the trusty Seiko when doing manual work. However, three of my four jobs are office-based, so risk would be minimal.
I AM convinced I want a nice watch, but I'm unconvinced that it has to be a Rolex, hence my self-doubt about my motivation
I've seen secondhand Subs down to less than £3.5k, but they appear not to have papers - from what I've read, its worth paying a bit extra for a watch with all the bits - box, papers, even the Rolex anchor
Will probably go and have a look at a couple of secondhand Subs in Birmingham tomorrow
To answer a few of the comments made so far:-
No, my funds are far from limitless - this would be a substantial purchase for me, but its certainly within my means.
I'm generally very good with watches - after around 20 years with the Seiko, I have a couple of very minor scratches to the glass and general lights scratches on the case - this is despite wearing it when working on the car or the house. TBH, I'd probably not risk damaging a Sub if I decided to buy - I would probably switch to the trusty Seiko when doing manual work. However, three of my four jobs are office-based, so risk would be minimal.
I AM convinced I want a nice watch, but I'm unconvinced that it has to be a Rolex, hence my self-doubt about my motivation
I've seen secondhand Subs down to less than £3.5k, but they appear not to have papers - from what I've read, its worth paying a bit extra for a watch with all the bits - box, papers, even the Rolex anchor
Will probably go and have a look at a couple of secondhand Subs in Birmingham tomorrow
Just got back from Brum - dropped into two Rolex ADs, neither of whom had any steel Subs, new or secondhand. One dealer took my details and said they may have some elsewhere in their chain (Watches of Switzerland). Goldsmiths shrugged their shoulders when I asked when they would next have stock in, and casually mentioned that even when it arrives, its all spoken for.
So - I jumped on the train and wandered round the jewellery quarter - found the shops that 38911 mentioned in his post above.
At first, I was slightly taken by a 1996 16610, but it had a non-original box and no papers - however it was £3750 and was very clean. The only thing that worried me was that the cyclops didn't seem centred over the date window - it was definitely a little high. The dealer knew his stuff though, and eventually offered me a 15% discount on a new no-date Sub - that's £4,250
So - the burning question - is a new Sub through a non-AD a bad idea, or should I have his hand off?
So - I jumped on the train and wandered round the jewellery quarter - found the shops that 38911 mentioned in his post above.
At first, I was slightly taken by a 1996 16610, but it had a non-original box and no papers - however it was £3750 and was very clean. The only thing that worried me was that the cyclops didn't seem centred over the date window - it was definitely a little high. The dealer knew his stuff though, and eventually offered me a 15% discount on a new no-date Sub - that's £4,250
So - the burning question - is a new Sub through a non-AD a bad idea, or should I have his hand off?
Just sent an email to PK Jewellers, as they're not answering their phone
Just worked out that with my Christmas bonus, due in the next day or two, I could probably run to £3.5k cash right now, without hitting my share options in March, or even breaking a sweat for the usual monthly budget (just checked the bank account for my part-time own business and it transpires I haven't paid myself for a few months, so there's a bit of cash sloshing around that I could use to pay myself a dividend)
Still intrigued by the possibility of a new one at £4,250 though....
One of the Jewellery Quarter dealers I visited (who BTW was very good - spent a good half hour chatting with me, even though it was clear there wouldn't be a sale today) - showed me another choice - Oris Aquis Red Limited Edition - thought it was rather nice and he offered me a 30% discount of the spot
http://www.oris.ch/en/watches/oris-aquis-red-limit...
I didn't spot it straight away, but I guess you guys might - what's unusual about the Oris?
Just worked out that with my Christmas bonus, due in the next day or two, I could probably run to £3.5k cash right now, without hitting my share options in March, or even breaking a sweat for the usual monthly budget (just checked the bank account for my part-time own business and it transpires I haven't paid myself for a few months, so there's a bit of cash sloshing around that I could use to pay myself a dividend)
Still intrigued by the possibility of a new one at £4,250 though....
One of the Jewellery Quarter dealers I visited (who BTW was very good - spent a good half hour chatting with me, even though it was clear there wouldn't be a sale today) - showed me another choice - Oris Aquis Red Limited Edition - thought it was rather nice and he offered me a 30% discount of the spot
http://www.oris.ch/en/watches/oris-aquis-red-limit...
I didn't spot it straight away, but I guess you guys might - what's unusual about the Oris?
RobinBanks said:
Yes, if you're looking at date Rolexes the date does appear not to line up properly with the cyclops apart from head on.
For me, that's yet another reason to go for a no-date - it honestly looked like the sort of issue you'd see on a fake - both the dealer and I tried to look at the face square-on and it still looked out of placeHmmm - matters are progressing....
Spoke with the highly-recommended Dom from Hackett this afternoon (lucky, as he was just dropping into the office for a couple of hours, prior to nipping off for what sounds like a well-earned holiday....)
Anyway, he's offered me a very good price on an un-worn 114060M - still with pre-delivery seals and most of the Rolex warranty still to run
He also put me right on the value of a couple of s/h submariners - a 1996 date-sub with no papers and the 2006 no-date that was shown in the link earlier in this thread - both are "top-dollar" and probably not the bargain they seem. Dom was particularly wary of a no-papers watch, particularly in the hands of a complete novice like me. Resale was his biggest concern, which again, for a total novice, is a higher likelihood than a regular collector
Thankfully, Dom's holiday means I can't jump on the train to London and take it off his hands tomorrow, which in turn gives me a little thinking time.
However, with a new ceramic no-date at £5k, I'm struggling to see why I shouldn't take the plunge on Dom's offer - time to empty the piggy bank?
Spoke with the highly-recommended Dom from Hackett this afternoon (lucky, as he was just dropping into the office for a couple of hours, prior to nipping off for what sounds like a well-earned holiday....)
Anyway, he's offered me a very good price on an un-worn 114060M - still with pre-delivery seals and most of the Rolex warranty still to run
He also put me right on the value of a couple of s/h submariners - a 1996 date-sub with no papers and the 2006 no-date that was shown in the link earlier in this thread - both are "top-dollar" and probably not the bargain they seem. Dom was particularly wary of a no-papers watch, particularly in the hands of a complete novice like me. Resale was his biggest concern, which again, for a total novice, is a higher likelihood than a regular collector
Thankfully, Dom's holiday means I can't jump on the train to London and take it off his hands tomorrow, which in turn gives me a little thinking time.
However, with a new ceramic no-date at £5k, I'm struggling to see why I shouldn't take the plunge on Dom's offer - time to empty the piggy bank?
Ari said:
Nigel, it sounds like you're set on buying a Rolex, which is good. From experience, buying a cheaper watch costs more, since you have to add on the cost of the Rolex you're going to get eventually anyway...
Yes, I'm getting pretty close now, but man-maths has crept in, which is suggesting that with the deal that Dom has offered, I can have the Sub for 'best' and a Steinhart for when I don't want to risk the Rolex.Things were a lot simpler when I only visited the car forums on Pistonheads.....
Ecurie Ecosse said:
Have you thought about the 16610 Sea Dweller?
Yes, but I have skinny wrists - the Sub is pretty much on the limit of what looks sensible on me - I'm even wondering if the extra two or three millimetres of the Steinhart would tip it over the edge (Sub is 40mm IIRC?)Posts above are probably correct - if (when?) I get a Sub, I'll probably wear it all the time. If I'm doing something where there's a chance of damage, I'll either put on one of my cheap, old faithful watches, or more likely, just take it off for a while
Another question for the aficionados....
Is a three-month old (and unworn) 114060M worth a grand more than a 2005 14060 (with box, papers & 6 month warranty)?
Just turned down the offer of a pre-registered, unworn 114060 for £4,450 from Iconic Watches - I could have collected it tomorrow, but Dom's price is better, so I guess I'll just have to hang on until he gets back from holiday
Damn - was kinda hoping Iconic would have done a bit better deal (advertised price is £4,500), but it seems their buying price was a bit stiffer than Hackett's
Never mind - judging by most feedback on PH, Dom is the man to use anyway
Damn - was kinda hoping Iconic would have done a bit better deal (advertised price is £4,500), but it seems their buying price was a bit stiffer than Hackett's
Never mind - judging by most feedback on PH, Dom is the man to use anyway
LOL - the Yorkshire in me appears to have worked - I don't think Iconic expected me to walk away - just had a call to say they'll match Dom's price
I think I'll email Dom to sound him out - may be the case that he can sell his Sub and wouldn't be losing a sale if I went to Iconic - if not, my loyalty is with Dom at the moment, but it means I'll have to wait
I think I'll email Dom to sound him out - may be the case that he can sell his Sub and wouldn't be losing a sale if I went to Iconic - if not, my loyalty is with Dom at the moment, but it means I'll have to wait
Having spoken briefly with Dom before he went on holiday, I could understand the "gent" accolade from PH'ers. Having just had an email from him, I wholeheartedly agree - what a star! He's clearly an "old-school" chap, who believes in good old-fashioned customer service when trying to gain a customer - its worked! - he's beaten Iconic's price, and in the process, got himself a new, loyal customer and I've got myself an unworn, no-date, ceramic Submariner - woohoo!!! The even better news is that I've done it without hitting my share options - managed to rustle up sufficient loose cash to do the deal.
My most expensive prior watch purchase was £65 - not entirely sure that a Sub is a logical next-step, but what the hell...
Just got to wait a couple of weeks for Dom to get back from skiing - I'm an impatient sort, so it'll be a bit frustrating not being able to "buy-it-now"
Thanks to everyone that has helped me with my deliberations over recent days - its been very helpful and has made the decision far less worrying - I feel confident I've done the right thing and that the price is right (well, bloody good, actually)
My most expensive prior watch purchase was £65 - not entirely sure that a Sub is a logical next-step, but what the hell...
Just got to wait a couple of weeks for Dom to get back from skiing - I'm an impatient sort, so it'll be a bit frustrating not being able to "buy-it-now"
Thanks to everyone that has helped me with my deliberations over recent days - its been very helpful and has made the decision far less worrying - I feel confident I've done the right thing and that the price is right (well, bloody good, actually)
Nooooo!
Got a call from Dominic today to say the Sub had already been sold
and that he wouldn't be offended if I wanted to accept Iconic's deal.
Then got a text from him to say he'd get me a brand new one for the same price
Now THAT is what I call great service.
Suffice to say, I have decided to wait another week or two in order to give the business to Dominic
Got a call from Dominic today to say the Sub had already been sold
and that he wouldn't be offended if I wanted to accept Iconic's deal.Then got a text from him to say he'd get me a brand new one for the same price
Now THAT is what I call great service.
Suffice to say, I have decided to wait another week or two in order to give the business to Dominic
just sent a certain Mr H an inordinate (for me) amount of money, in exchange for something to tell the time with.....
next question for the hardened collectors on here - how does one effectively and convincingly explain to SWMBO that its not really what it looks like?
her boss wears a Rolex, so she's fully aware of what they are and what they cost - can I claim its a "damn good replica"?
next question for the hardened collectors on here - how does one effectively and convincingly explain to SWMBO that its not really what it looks like?
her boss wears a Rolex, so she's fully aware of what they are and what they cost - can I claim its a "damn good replica"?
I can't deny that the money could easily have been spent on other deserving stuff, like a new bathroom, refurb kitchen, new front door etc
I just didn't want to go through the "you spent HOW MUCH on a watch....." discussion
However, I guess the only way to avoid this would have been to buy a Steinhart, but then I wouldn't have the nice warm glow that I'm hoping I'll get with a Sub on my wrist.
There's a slim chance she won't even notice - I shaved my beard off a week ago and she hasn't noticed yet.....
I just didn't want to go through the "you spent HOW MUCH on a watch....." discussion
However, I guess the only way to avoid this would have been to buy a Steinhart, but then I wouldn't have the nice warm glow that I'm hoping I'll get with a Sub on my wrist.
There's a slim chance she won't even notice - I shaved my beard off a week ago and she hasn't noticed yet.....
alfaman said:
... Obviously not into 'diving' then - or she would have noticed ;-)
Found the level.... 
TBH, the only watch she ever notices is my birth-year gold Smiths, and that's only because it ticks really loudly
If I say nothing, I might just get away with it
OGR4M said:
That's what kids are for...
remember, I've got just as much on you, as you have on me - truce? Gassing Station | Watches | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff