Discussion
I quite fancy a fun dinghy to race.
To give you some background, my keelboat is not a natural racer and isn't the hardest physical workout to sail, and my gf and I were discussing the idea of getting something a bit faster and more physically demanding to make racing a bit more fun and involved.
Where I'm based (Loch Lomond) there is quite a strong flying fifteen fleet but I'm not mad on those (maybe once I'm a bit older
) and a broad mix of dinghies, from a 49er to a Moth to some Canoes etc etc so there's no 'club' boat that I could get that would mean competitive racing and a big turnout at weekends.
So it's an open goal basically. The only thing I don't really care about it whether it can double as a day sailor as we have the bigger boat for that, so this can entirely be a focussed speed machine.
My thoughts:
1. Must be ideal with a crew of two
2. Must be able to sail it solo if needed
3. Must be fast
4. Trapeze a bonus (never tried it but looks ace)
5. Any other thoughts I've missed?
I've been looking at 5o5s this weekend and they look great but open to suggestions. Something from RS?
Even a cat might be fun though I know next to nothing about them.
In terms of ability, I used to sail dinghies a lot more but recent experience has been keelboat/yacht sailing. I'm not averse to something challenging but suspect a foiling Moth would be a bit of stretch for my abilities!
To give you some background, my keelboat is not a natural racer and isn't the hardest physical workout to sail, and my gf and I were discussing the idea of getting something a bit faster and more physically demanding to make racing a bit more fun and involved.
Where I'm based (Loch Lomond) there is quite a strong flying fifteen fleet but I'm not mad on those (maybe once I'm a bit older
) and a broad mix of dinghies, from a 49er to a Moth to some Canoes etc etc so there's no 'club' boat that I could get that would mean competitive racing and a big turnout at weekends. So it's an open goal basically. The only thing I don't really care about it whether it can double as a day sailor as we have the bigger boat for that, so this can entirely be a focussed speed machine.
My thoughts:
1. Must be ideal with a crew of two
2. Must be able to sail it solo if needed
3. Must be fast
4. Trapeze a bonus (never tried it but looks ace)
5. Any other thoughts I've missed?
I've been looking at 5o5s this weekend and they look great but open to suggestions. Something from RS?
Even a cat might be fun though I know next to nothing about them.
In terms of ability, I used to sail dinghies a lot more but recent experience has been keelboat/yacht sailing. I'm not averse to something challenging but suspect a foiling Moth would be a bit of stretch for my abilities!
Wing Commander said:
Disastrous said:
Agreed - a bit of Youtubing has made me very keen on a Dart.
Is the 16 just a bit smaller and easier to handle? How difficult are these to sail?
The main downside to a cat is the turning ability. In my opinion, you need it to have a jib, even if single handing it. Back the jib on every tack, and it turns much better. Gybe where possible, just to speed things up a bit!Is the 16 just a bit smaller and easier to handle? How difficult are these to sail?
A 16 is made from plastic. Again, check out youtube of people trying to destroy these things. They are tough tough tough, hence why sailing schools use them. They are fast, fun and pretty much unsinkable. They are also extremely buoyant in the bows so pitch-poling these is much harder (although possible if you really try!
)The 16 is 16ft, the 18 is 18ft. The 18 has much sleaker hulls (but are fibreglass so don't beach them as hard as you would a 16) and is faster by quite a margin. Always designed as a 2 man boat, but easy to pootle one up.
If you and the OH want some serious s
ts and giggles, check out the Hurricane 5.9. A twin trapeze with kite catamaran... crazy things!I believe there's one of each (a 16 and an 18) at the club and certainly, the 18 was only beaten by the foiling moth at the weekend.
Interesting nugget about backing the jib. I know Cats are infamous for their reluctance to tack but having never sailed one, haven't experienced it myself or really understand why not.
In what way does backing the jib help? Does that not make it want to heave to? Or does the backed jib pull the bow around (at which point, presumably you then re-sheet to leeward)?
Don't apologise - that's really good to know! And makes perfect sense when you think about it...
You've got me very keen of the idea, I must say.
A pal has just suggested the 16 for starters until I'm used to handling them - are they still pretty good fun or would I regret not having the bigger one?
You've got me very keen of the idea, I must say.
A pal has just suggested the 16 for starters until I'm used to handling them - are they still pretty good fun or would I regret not having the bigger one?
Hard drive and B14, thanks - have been googling Fireballs and Laser IIs as well. The thing that puts me off slightly us there aren't any at the club, leading to lonely races I guess...also, no possibility to try one.
There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
b14 said:
Disastrous said:
Hard drive and B14, thanks - have been googling Fireballs and Laser IIs as well. The thing that puts me off slightly us there aren't any at the club, leading to lonely races I guess...also, no possibility to try one.
There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
The speed is not necessarily the issue, it's handling them when they capsize. The float high on their sides and drift very quickly downwind, so you can be left behind if you haven't stayed in touch with the boat. They're also relatively difficult to right from capsize unless you've got the knack and a bit of weight. If they turtle, no fun at all. Most people recommend that you practice capsizing and righting the boat in light winds at first before you commit to a windier day where it might not be voluntary... There seem to be a few Dart 16s and 18s so I may get a chance to crew and see how they are.
In terms of people saying that Cats are easy to get into trouble with - in what way do you mean? Is it just that they go fast and when they pitchpole you go flying? It sounds daft but it's probably part of the appeal! Loch Lomond is big enough that running out of space ought not to be too much of an issue.
Is there a trick to avoiding it during a gybe?
Having said that, they are good fun and the dart 16 is designed for single and double handed use. If you want a cat, then the Dart 16 has to be the best option - bullet proof whilst fitting your needs.
That said, the fact that our club has rescue boats in the water every weekend is a good thing and more often than not, I'd be sailing with the OH.
Dart 16 sounds good - I just wish I could get out my head that the 18 will be bait faster...
Burrow01 said:
Disastrous said:
Supplemental question - what's the difference between the Sprint 15 and Dart 16?
I can't find much reliable info separating them but they seem like they would be answering the same questions?
Was also going to mention this in my previous post and forgot I can't find much reliable info separating them but they seem like they would be answering the same questions?
Dart 15/ Sprint is a smaller version of the Dart 18 - fibreglass hulls with a similar shape to the Dart 18, no spinnaker, can be sailed solo or with crew.
Nice boat, main problem is it has even less hull bouyancy forward of the beam, and so pitchpoles even more easily than a Dart 18
In the end the choice boils down to how quickly you can get to grips with cat sailing - it all comes down to time on the water. If you can sail every weekend you will get the basics in a couple of months and could potentially sail any of the Darts under discussion. If you are only going to sail once a month it will take a season to be comfortable on a Dart 15/ 16.
It also depends if you eventually want to move to a spinnaker boat, as only the Dart 16 can take a spinnaker (officially, people have modified D18s)
D16 - basic beginner Cat, can be reefed, wide wind range / solo / with crew / heavy / indestructible / kite available / will outgrow sooner
D15 - Basic Cat solo / with crew / pretty light / less stable / no kite available / will outgrow eventually
D18 - Proper Cat, solo / with crew / reasonable weight / powerful / tricker to get to grips with / no kite
From that it looks like the answer would be D16 to a D18 if I get bored. The fact that the 16 can take a spinnaker appeals as an additional level of 'messing' and the fact that you quite often find the wind drops right off on Loch Lomond and the downwind legs can get very dull without a kite.
Assuming both are being sailed well, what is the speed differential in knots between the D16 and D18? I didn't get a chance to check the finish times last weekend but the 18 seemed a deal quicker but so long as the 16 goes fast enough to be exciting (bearing in mind my keelboat will do 6 kts flat out!) it should be ok. Will a 16 reach 16-18 kts?
I guess that 15 kts will easily feel pretty fast for starters though, coming from keel boats and pissing about on Picos as a youngster?
Have just looked up a Hurricane too - what's the deal with them? They look like the Sprint 15 but sounds like they're awful quick?
Sorry for all the questions - it seems like just as I get down one layer another opens up!
Have just looked up a Hurricane too - what's the deal with them? They look like the Sprint 15 but sounds like they're awful quick?
Sorry for all the questions - it seems like just as I get down one layer another opens up!
TTwiggy said:
I have to say that all this talk of fast cats has made me reconsider the idea of a small boat (I generally only sail keeled caravans). I think I'd want to be in warm waters though!
I was swimming in Loch Lomond in nought but board shorts the other night. Like bath water (for say the surface 50cm anyway)!Cyder said:
Disastrous said:
Looking at Hobie 16s today...good grief, why are they all so similar!?
Avoid the Hobie like the plague, there's no front end or rear end buoyancy so they're like sailing a rocking horse and are equally happy capsizing forwards or backwards as well as sideways!Horrible things to sail.
t? How come they're so popular??They're arguably a bit prettier but surprised they're no good!
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