Type 23 frigates
Discussion
This being the warship geek place on the forum, I just thought I would share my latest blog with you.
It is about the Type 23 frigate and was prompted after a found a 30 year old MOD document about
http://www.danentwisle.com/blog/2014/08/19/type-23...
It is about the Type 23 frigate and was prompted after a found a 30 year old MOD document about
http://www.danentwisle.com/blog/2014/08/19/type-23...
Edited by wildcat45 on Wednesday 20th August 22:56
I think the 23 with its quieter hull was a better sub hunter. But with the end of the cold war, that wasn't so important so yes I thing the 22 BIII was far more capable especially if it had been modified to accept Merin.
The 22 BIII's real asset was ELINT those four COBLU installations made them very useful ships indeed. Right up to the end with Cumberland in the Lybia op.
The real waste was the Batch II. They were built so they could take old school Leander style mid life modernisation, but it never happened with the RN. Boxer Beaver Brave London Sheffied and Coventry shoul all have got 4-5s Harpoon and the other stung to create more Batch III ships.
The 22 BIII's real asset was ELINT those four COBLU installations made them very useful ships indeed. Right up to the end with Cumberland in the Lybia op.
The real waste was the Batch II. They were built so they could take old school Leander style mid life modernisation, but it never happened with the RN. Boxer Beaver Brave London Sheffied and Coventry shoul all have got 4-5s Harpoon and the other stung to create more Batch III ships.
This is a bit outdated as I wrote it four years ago, but it is about the Type 22.
http://www.danentwisle.com/blog/2011/02/22/type-22...
http://www.danentwisle.com/blog/2011/02/22/type-22...
The RN always put Exocet in silly places. I never knew that about the BI ships.
Look at the counties. Topweight may have been an issure but 4 Exocet to replace B Turret? Siloy idea. Same for the BII. Exocet Leanders. Chile put the missiles on the stern. The bit of the flight deck the helo never used. Thus they kept the guns up front.
The 45s are getting Harpoon sets FWD of the bridge from the scrapped 22s.
The 45 is a pretty decent bit of kit, but she is an AAW vessel first and foremost. Sampson radar has I am told amazed the yanks. They are getting Shamen CESM which will see them take over a lot of the secret squirrel work the 22 BIIIs did.
Glad you like my site. You'll find loads more warship stuff on there.
Look at the counties. Topweight may have been an issure but 4 Exocet to replace B Turret? Siloy idea. Same for the BII. Exocet Leanders. Chile put the missiles on the stern. The bit of the flight deck the helo never used. Thus they kept the guns up front.
The 45s are getting Harpoon sets FWD of the bridge from the scrapped 22s.
The 45 is a pretty decent bit of kit, but she is an AAW vessel first and foremost. Sampson radar has I am told amazed the yanks. They are getting Shamen CESM which will see them take over a lot of the secret squirrel work the 22 BIIIs did.
Glad you like my site. You'll find loads more warship stuff on there.
Interesting to see how views change. This is what I thought about the 26 a few years ago.
http://www.danentwisle.com/blog/2011/04/23/type-26...
Views I do not really hold now. Things have moved on.
Looking at the 26 and the evolutionary nature of its design, I think it's is a really sensible way to move forward. The high "legacy" content of gear brought through from refitted 23s des make sense.
It makes the ships affordable.
My main concerns are that enough will be built and also that they are kept up to date. Legacy equipment makes sense to start with, but how long before that gear becomes obsolete?
That's the positive way of thinking. The negative way would suggest these ships are evolved versions of a quarter century old design with second hand kit pulled off their predecessors before they were scrapped. They will soon be outclassed by more modern and more innovative designs.
For me, the jury is still out. One thing for certain is that the RN needs new frigates.
It's a tough call for the RN. Getting the right ships, enough ships, keeping them and keeping the Treasury sweet.
Fugazi said:
The aerodynamics of these ships are my specialty and all of my work involves the Type 23, Type 45 and Type 26 ships. I've spent hundreds of works looking at pictures, CAD designs and CFD results of these ships, never actually been on one though. The T-45 and T-26 are designed to have a small radar cross section so are relatively uncluttered and slab sided whereas the T-23 is an older design and is littered with masts, radomes, walkways etc. These produce different airwakes to the newer ships as the sharp edges and slab sides can produce more severe airwakes which can in turn impact on helicopter aerodynamics meaning the pilots may have to work harder to land in certain conditions. The cut out notch on the starboard side of the hangar, for instance, produces a tightly bound vortex that hugs the deck for Green wind conditions.
A lot of the work I do is around the T-26 and helping to inform on various design configurations, because if a modern frigate cannot deploy a helicopter then it's effectiveness has been greatly reduced. So using techniques like CFD and piloted flight simulation, we can help to provide design guidance so that helicopters can operate in more adverse conditions.
Fascinating stuff! You should get yourself round one or better still experience the air turbulence for yourself by landing on in a helo. I have always been impressed by the bumpy landings I have had in carriers - the Invincibles. Those four hot gas updates must have had something to do with it.A lot of the work I do is around the T-26 and helping to inform on various design configurations, because if a modern frigate cannot deploy a helicopter then it's effectiveness has been greatly reduced. So using techniques like CFD and piloted flight simulation, we can help to provide design guidance so that helicopters can operate in more adverse conditions.
There was a "half Sampson" bit of kit being touted a few years ago. I think it was called Spector . Kind of Sampson lite. I guess though it did not come at half the cost of Sampson.
The thing is with 997/Artisan is that it is good, better than.the 996 but i have been told its actually dogs dangles tech from the early 2000s.
I am wondering if it is a case of keeping up with the Jones, that off the shelf (cheap easy to replace) technology should be employed.
Maybe not for the 26, but the current use of Sea Giraffe by all sorts of navies including the USN maybe the way forward.
Look back at the USN Perry Class of 30 years ago. A lot of the radar gear was internationally marketed Dutch Hollandse Signaalapperaten stuff, the gun an off the shelf Italian OTO Melara.
Seriously, what is a Type 26 going to fight?
Sampson with Sea Viper is good. If it was half as good at half the cost with twice the number of hulls, would that be an acceptable trade off?
The thing is with 997/Artisan is that it is good, better than.the 996 but i have been told its actually dogs dangles tech from the early 2000s.
I am wondering if it is a case of keeping up with the Jones, that off the shelf (cheap easy to replace) technology should be employed.
Maybe not for the 26, but the current use of Sea Giraffe by all sorts of navies including the USN maybe the way forward.
Look back at the USN Perry Class of 30 years ago. A lot of the radar gear was internationally marketed Dutch Hollandse Signaalapperaten stuff, the gun an off the shelf Italian OTO Melara.
Seriously, what is a Type 26 going to fight?
Sampson with Sea Viper is good. If it was half as good at half the cost with twice the number of hulls, would that be an acceptable trade off?
Sadly I don't know enough to comment in detail.
Apparently it does the stuff Sampson does but not as well. The reason being you may not need all of Sampsons features on a certain kind of warship.
For example, Sampson can track say 200 targets from sea level to x thousand feet. Spectre perhaps can not see that high.
That's just an example I made up.
I'll see if there are any specs online.
dnb said:
What's half as good though? It's a really difficult thing to quantify.
Yeah I suppose it is. From memory Spectar is single faced radar, Sampson double faced. Now this is on the limit of my knowledge or understanding so I could be wrong here...With two faces you can get the radar to do lots of different things at once, track air and surface targets and fire control for weapions. With Spectar having less kit, you can do less with it. Doesn't make it a bad bit of kit. Indeed it may take out functions a frigate does not need. There are weight advantages too. You can mount a lighter radar higher, put it in a spammer ship etc.
I really don't think a lack of anti-ship missile is that big a deal.
It is a nice to have bit of kit but I really can. Not see a future operation where two warships slug it out trading punches like a WWII battle.
For taking out ships, a SSN is a much better bet, also an aircraft. The F35, which will be in the carriers the 45s will protect will most likely carry the Naval Strike Missile. Similarly, the 45s can carry two Sea Skua equipped Lynx, which will one day be replaced by Wildcat, carrying the FASGW - an anti ship missile that will replace Sea Skua.
The big drawback to the Type 45 is the lack of "strike length" silos that would allow them to deploy land attack weapons like TLAM (Tomahawk) or the naval version of Storm Shadow called Naval SCALP.
Another drawback is the lack of the ability to take out ballistic missiles. This is the new big thing in AAW warship specs. I imagine Sampson, Smart-L and PAAMS (Sea Viper) will get this eventually.
The high end and high value Type 45 capabilities in my mind make the argument for a class of less sophisticated escorts. A modern day Type 21 anyone?
It is a nice to have bit of kit but I really can. Not see a future operation where two warships slug it out trading punches like a WWII battle.
For taking out ships, a SSN is a much better bet, also an aircraft. The F35, which will be in the carriers the 45s will protect will most likely carry the Naval Strike Missile. Similarly, the 45s can carry two Sea Skua equipped Lynx, which will one day be replaced by Wildcat, carrying the FASGW - an anti ship missile that will replace Sea Skua.
The big drawback to the Type 45 is the lack of "strike length" silos that would allow them to deploy land attack weapons like TLAM (Tomahawk) or the naval version of Storm Shadow called Naval SCALP.
Another drawback is the lack of the ability to take out ballistic missiles. This is the new big thing in AAW warship specs. I imagine Sampson, Smart-L and PAAMS (Sea Viper) will get this eventually.
The high end and high value Type 45 capabilities in my mind make the argument for a class of less sophisticated escorts. A modern day Type 21 anyone?
DMN said:
Thats mainly as the Perry class where not designed to keep up with the main fleet. They where designed to protect the troop transports bringing the bulk of US forces across to Europe once war with Russia kicked off. Freeing up with better equiped ships to protect the carriers.
From wiki:
"The Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates were designed primarily as anti-aircraft and anti-submarine warfare guided-missile warships intended to provide open-ocean escort of amphibious warfare ships and merchant ship convoys in moderate threat environments in a potential war with the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries."
It was still a good ship, for what it did and they seem to have found roles with navies on the second hand market. It wasn't a good plated design, and I think that's an important lesson for the RN to bear in mind.From wiki:
"The Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates were designed primarily as anti-aircraft and anti-submarine warfare guided-missile warships intended to provide open-ocean escort of amphibious warfare ships and merchant ship convoys in moderate threat environments in a potential war with the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries."
donutsina911 said:
Definitely. The fleet needs (lots) more hulls that can do a little bit of everything. Drug busting / Disaster Relief / NGS / Counter Piracy ops don't need all singing, all dancing platforms...even a slightly larger version of the new OPVs would be just fine. Helo/4.5"/Harpoon/ESSM...job done.
It's about getting the design and capability right for the price.Very easy to turn a great OPV into a expensive but s
t frigate.DK Brown who designed the Castle Class wrote about it.
In 1980/1 when the Castles were being built and the 23 was this armed down sonar tug thought was given to perhaps expanding the Castoe design.
As an OPV with a 40mm gun, decent sensors and a flight deck it was great for fighting a future Cod War.
He wrote about adding a Sonar to the design, then perhaps a longer hull (The design allowed for this) adding Exocet and perhaps an OTO. Melara 76mm gun.
Thie additions would send the price way up when you add crew an ops room, bigger galley and the like. The price would be getting into Type 23 territory. But for that miney you would have a slow noisy propulsion plant, no air defence missiles, no magazine space for things like torpedoes, no aircraft accomodation.
A pretty crap and flawed frigate adapted from a perfectly good design for an OPV.
So I think the RN needs a Type 21 for the 21st Century, but a ship that is a proper sized frigate, with commercially sourced -good enough for the job but not gold plated - equipment.
If that means you buy fewer of the high end dogs b
ks Type 26 but more of the affordable design then that's great.There are plenty of Frigate designs we could buy, plenty of weapons where the R and D has been done.
The spec I would go for would be something like this.
4-5000 tons.
Diesel power, long range 25 knots.
Reused 4.5 inch gun from RN stock.
SeaRam or similar for air defence.
Second Hand Harpoon from RN stock.
Sensors like Sea Giraffe and commercial market sonars.
Space for RHIBs, combined hangar/cargo/UAV space.
Space for a small embarked military force.
Able to accomodate and operate Merlin or Wildcat.
Use or adapt an existing design, get it built by Daewoo, and get Devonport, Pompey or Rosyth to install the weapins and electronics.
Not he perfect frigate, but good enough.
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