how much to wet lease an A380?
Discussion
So, it is my Monday off as usual and I'm trying to look at flights to Oz(ref my post in Travel and Holidays)one way, as I will be migrating.
Having the confidence of the totally ignorant, how hard, really, would it be to wet lease an A380, configure for maximum 800 'ish seats, sell the seats for a minumum cost but with some services and maybe have the flight coming back the other way for Oz to Uk/Europe migrants? The aircraft, being leased, then just goes back to sitting where it was for the next customer.
Now having done a little research (and some red wine) I have found at least 1 A380 that is for sale/lease http://www.aviatorsale.com/aix6292/.....
My main aim is to get a free flight for me (with someone else to take the hassle of selling the other tickets) and a little project to keep me buisy for a few weeks!
I have already thought of a name, 'Air Migration'.......
Any help or suggestions gratefully accepted!
Having the confidence of the totally ignorant, how hard, really, would it be to wet lease an A380, configure for maximum 800 'ish seats, sell the seats for a minumum cost but with some services and maybe have the flight coming back the other way for Oz to Uk/Europe migrants? The aircraft, being leased, then just goes back to sitting where it was for the next customer.
Now having done a little research (and some red wine) I have found at least 1 A380 that is for sale/lease http://www.aviatorsale.com/aix6292/.....
My main aim is to get a free flight for me (with someone else to take the hassle of selling the other tickets) and a little project to keep me buisy for a few weeks!
I have already thought of a name, 'Air Migration'.......
Any help or suggestions gratefully accepted!
Simpo Two said:
Sometimes intelligent ignorance is a very good starting point.
You tease me, Yes? I picked the A380 as both a number of UK and Asian airports can accept it.Sydney,Melbourne and Adelaide can too. Also, the cost per hour/number of PAX seems to stack up for the lowest average seat cost. I had considered 747-400/800 but range/capacity seems to be at a disadvantage....
My 'confidence of the ignorant' was more a question of 'why not?' rather than 'it is not possible'.
john_p said:
A 747-400 would be a better bet, more likely of being able to charter one. There are only 30-ish built A380s and they are probably all in constant use!
A full 744 will take about 450 people and to fly on max tanks to the far east leaves not very much for cargo, say 20kg per person, making the 'migration' angle slightly tricky!
Airlines go bust left right and centre and they do this sort of stuff every day
However, when I go, all I intend to take is hand luggage, pretty much everything has already been shipped and the last bits will be going in October. leaves a bit of room for profitable cargo too, yes?A full 744 will take about 450 people and to fly on max tanks to the far east leaves not very much for cargo, say 20kg per person, making the 'migration' angle slightly tricky!
Airlines go bust left right and centre and they do this sort of stuff every day
Simpo Two said:
TVR1 said:
My 'confidence of the ignorant' was more a question of 'why not?' rather than 'it is not possible'.
I should perhaps have added a . The general concept is that coming to a situation with fresh eyes, you can often see better/faster ways of doing things than deadheads who've been staring at it for 20 years and bouncing off the same walls saying it can't be done.However I presume you have not run an airline before!
I did indeed read your reply in the wrong way. You have very eloquently stated what I was trying to think/express. No, I havn't run an airline before but in the dim and distant past I night controlled a very buisy west London mini cab office (try that for logistical nightmares) in the recent past, I had to look after a (nameless) British sports car manufacturer, whilst the directors where away on 'business.' And more recently, I was able to stop bailiff enforcement action from Camden Council/Lords/Marsdens/Mckenzie Hall 'bailiffs' over a disputed parking ticket....try that for making the impossible happen! This I consider my greatest success of all!
Mojocvh said:
FourWheelDrift said:
A Russian selling a new Airbus A380?.....I must send him my bank details immediately. I see he works for a company that provides crews to ships. How on earth would he have got a brand new A380, unless one of the staff walked off the ship with the crate under his Ushanka.
I would be laughing too but his pullout cost me and a lot of connies our jobs, cest la vie!
deja Vu......
Edited by TVR1 on Monday 27th September 17:50
Simpo Two said:
TVR1 said:
in the dim and distant past I night controlled a very buisy west London mini cab office
Well, airliners are just very big flying taxis... just tack a few zeros onto the mileage, add a third dimension ('up'), and bish-bash-bosh you're on your way!www.ruskin-air-services.co.uk
Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 27th September 18:35
I like this very much!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca1Psf5ZlCI
Although, seriously, the idea is still there, bouncing around my head...
Although, I feel I must call for YODA on this one......
ERIC MC where are you?......I need a bean too. Also, looking at alternative(London'ish)airports.
Would Farnborough take one? Obviously yes, Air show, 2400M etc....but a fully loaded one with maximum weight? Time of year, cold and damp-so maybe just right?
My other thought was RAF Northolt? Long'ish at 1700M....but assuming that an A380 wouldn't be using minimum braking distance of 1200M would Northolt offer a gentle stopping distance in 1700M? And,would Northolt actually accept a heavy civil aircraft?(as in non military rather than the private small jets that they accept now?)
ETA....I may very well be able to land and take off for the return leg OK. I have a friend who may be able to help at RAAF Edinburgh (length just under 3000M but quite warm and humid in December)
ERIC MC where are you?......I need a bean too. Also, looking at alternative(London'ish)airports.
Would Farnborough take one? Obviously yes, Air show, 2400M etc....but a fully loaded one with maximum weight? Time of year, cold and damp-so maybe just right?
My other thought was RAF Northolt? Long'ish at 1700M....but assuming that an A380 wouldn't be using minimum braking distance of 1200M would Northolt offer a gentle stopping distance in 1700M? And,would Northolt actually accept a heavy civil aircraft?(as in non military rather than the private small jets that they accept now?)
ETA....I may very well be able to land and take off for the return leg OK. I have a friend who may be able to help at RAAF Edinburgh (length just under 3000M but quite warm and humid in December)
or am I just better off concentrating on a 747-800?
Edited by TVR1 on Monday 27th September 19:31
shakotan said:
FourWheelDrift said:
A Russian selling a new Airbus A380?.....I must send him my bank details immediately. I see he works for a company that provides crews to ships. How on earth would he have got a brand new A380, unless one of the staff walked off the ship with the crate under his Ushanka.
No A380s have been sold into non-airline hands, yet.http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/05/13/34...
Edited by TVR1 on Monday 27th September 19:41
So,
Thanks for all the replies chaps. In the cold light of day, it would seem that 747 would be the way to go. Landing fees at Northolt (only 'cos I live in Chiswick and I really couldn't be arsed with the Heathrow palava) seem to be around £8000.....And it seems that they will take a heavy civil aircraft...any number of far east airports will do the same, Australia is a bit more tricky as it seems that RAAF basis are a complete non starter...although there are a couple of regional airports that can handle a 747, not just the main, Sydney/Melbourne (read expensive)ones.
Anyways, chaps, I fired off a few emails to a couple of charter companies last night so we shall see....What do we think of my basic 'back of a fag packet scribbles so far?'
The basic idea as follows...
Low cost, one way only flight to Australia for exclusively Expat Australians returning and Uk citizens migrating/working holiday makers. (this gets around the issue of not having a return flight out of the country) The same back to UK.....Flights to run only 3 or 4 times a year to take into account seasonal demand using regional airports.
Aircraft to be fitted out for maximum economy seating with maybe a small number upstairs at a premium. 1st class to be converted to economy configuration.
Only complimentary light snacks served on board but with paid for premium meals available by advance booking. Limited in flight food can be purchased and will consist of 24hr ration packs (army type to cover all flight legs)
Duty free goods contracted out but with a fee for doing so.
Maximum 20kg total luggage (passengers should have already sent most of there stuff by ship anyway if migrating) Any additional weight can be pre-purchased at time of booking for a 'reasonable' fee. Any spare capacity used for cargo.
Ticketing to be contracted out to one of the major booking agents, Ticketmaster etc.
Charter company to arrange full ad-hoc lease or use spare established airline capacity....They will arrange all paperwork,ground fees, crews, replacement aircraft etc.
Seems like a fairly straightforward mathematical calculation. Divide costs by passengers and if it works out, it works out!
I shall keep you all updated!
Thanks for all the replies chaps. In the cold light of day, it would seem that 747 would be the way to go. Landing fees at Northolt (only 'cos I live in Chiswick and I really couldn't be arsed with the Heathrow palava) seem to be around £8000.....And it seems that they will take a heavy civil aircraft...any number of far east airports will do the same, Australia is a bit more tricky as it seems that RAAF basis are a complete non starter...although there are a couple of regional airports that can handle a 747, not just the main, Sydney/Melbourne (read expensive)ones.
Anyways, chaps, I fired off a few emails to a couple of charter companies last night so we shall see....What do we think of my basic 'back of a fag packet scribbles so far?'
The basic idea as follows...
Low cost, one way only flight to Australia for exclusively Expat Australians returning and Uk citizens migrating/working holiday makers. (this gets around the issue of not having a return flight out of the country) The same back to UK.....Flights to run only 3 or 4 times a year to take into account seasonal demand using regional airports.
Aircraft to be fitted out for maximum economy seating with maybe a small number upstairs at a premium. 1st class to be converted to economy configuration.
Only complimentary light snacks served on board but with paid for premium meals available by advance booking. Limited in flight food can be purchased and will consist of 24hr ration packs (army type to cover all flight legs)
Duty free goods contracted out but with a fee for doing so.
Maximum 20kg total luggage (passengers should have already sent most of there stuff by ship anyway if migrating) Any additional weight can be pre-purchased at time of booking for a 'reasonable' fee. Any spare capacity used for cargo.
Ticketing to be contracted out to one of the major booking agents, Ticketmaster etc.
Charter company to arrange full ad-hoc lease or use spare established airline capacity....They will arrange all paperwork,ground fees, crews, replacement aircraft etc.
Seems like a fairly straightforward mathematical calculation. Divide costs by passengers and if it works out, it works out!
I shall keep you all updated!
Edited by TVR1 on Tuesday 28th September 11:38
FourWheelDrift said:
Wouldn't it be easier to buy and import a domesticated elephant?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Twas a very good thread!
Quick update of basic operating costs. Now I know that they are a bit out of date but they can't be too far off current rates. Also the A340-600 haspopped up as another contender!
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/ro/allpirg/allpirg4/wp...
http://www.what2fly.com/
Edited by TVR1 on Tuesday 28th September 12:04
john_p said:
Northolt's runway is far too short to handle a 747 fully loaded.
Quite. Schoolboy error from me, equating stopping distance with takeoff.It is getting the bugger up thats the issue of course,needing around 3000M so I guess that puts quite a few airfields out of the running.Northolt is bust! so next choice must be Castle Donnington! (to keep a PH theme) AKA East Midlands Airport of course, to be clear for those who have a sudden 
about lining up the apex in a 747 'heavy'-or our old favourite bus terminal Stansted.......I have heard that Ulyanovsk-Vostochny is pretty long too but getting the pax there could be, erm, a challenge.aeropilot said:
john_p said:
Northolt's runway is far too short to handle a 747 fully loaded.
A Pan Am 707 landed there........ once..... by mistake, back in 1960. It stopped before the end of the runway....just..... no doubt helped by only having 40 odd PAX on board.After defuelling to bare min for take-off and short hop to LHR, and stripping out as much stuff as poss, the Captian that landed it there, undertook a spirited take-off for the short hop to LHR, where upon after landing he was fired
Here it is climbing out of Northolt (the Police shut off the A40)
Simpo Two said:
Pretty poor show. Had they sacked me I'd have flown the bugger back to Northolt and left it there. Let management fly it out.
Having read about it further...there does seem to have been a 'discussion' at Heathrow between Pan Am and the pilot along exactly those lines....Lufthansa nearly did the same but did a touch and go after realising the mistake.....I have also been reading Boeings guide to starting an airline....seems pretty straightforward....
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/startup/informati...
mattdaniels said:
If you want somewhere in the south east for a 747 then Manston is your only real choice.
As for your fag packet maths - do you need to add some sort of insurances? PL insurance? Some bond with ABTA to protect peoples money if your organisation goes Dolly Parton? Do you need to be some sort of licenced organisation to wet lease and operate an aircraft?
Yes, you would-as an air carrier....but ad-hoc charter seems to be the best bet as the charter company arranges all of that, in simple terms, I say where and when and how many people, they say 'it will cost you X'. It is, at the moment, a simple mathematical excercise. The charges include departure taxes, landing fees, insurance etc, everything really. I guess that this is what every airline has to figure out every day, only on a much larger scale. Fuel is the big variable that I can't protect against (well, not on this scale anyway) I am pretty much aware that the passenger revenue will not cover the cost of the flights-even if I managed to find an older 747-200 single class configured for 600 people. It is working out if cargo, sales of food/drink/ad ons can cover the additional costs, also having in mind that my minimum fixed cost for the aircraft is much higher.As for your fag packet maths - do you need to add some sort of insurances? PL insurance? Some bond with ABTA to protect peoples money if your organisation goes Dolly Parton? Do you need to be some sort of licenced organisation to wet lease and operate an aircraft?
Clearly it is much less expensive to operate an aircraft that you own, than charter it from someone else but then you don't have the massive upfront costs and headaches to look after.
Penguinracer said:
Been there! Around the Millenium I went through this exercise. Spoke to the UK CAA, NZ CAA, a/c owners, travel agents, venture capitalists (through a partner at PWC). Bottom line was that the a/c owners were so greedy the numbers didn't stack up. Slots at Heathrow - not a problem. Ground handling - not a problem. Wet lease costs covered fuel.I think I was quoted $US17K/flight hr on a 747. I wasn't interested in the Tri-Star which would require two stops to NZ - but it was significantly cheaper. I think I was coming in at around £1400/seat to NZ/Aust around Christmas '99. It's all very doable - you just need deep pockets if it doesn't work out! As far as ABTA bonding is concerned - that's sorted by an insurance policy through Lloyds. Aviation is a nice place to SPEND money if you're sufficiently wealthy - but the last place a prudent business would invest if he/she wants to MAKE money. Ego generally drives new investment in this industry. Perhaps it helps if your business is vertically integrated e.g. you're a national airline flying to a far-flung place at which you have the majority of the inbound & outbound air traffic & you own hotels, a domestic airline, ground & sea transport, tourist attractions etc
Cheers for your input Penguin not much has changed really from what I have discovered over the last couple of days,although only one broker has so far come back to me, he is willing to talk to me on a 'confidential' basis, regarding what rates you can get if 'they' think you are serious and not just a broker mystery shopping others.I get the feeling air charter is a bit of a closed shop.ATOL bonding is a bit of an odd one. I don't know what it was like then but now there appear to be various catagories of ATOL licence. The basic one only covers 500 passengers per year, with it seems, very few checks other than have you the £690 fee. I will be getting a quote for an Insurance backed bond tomorrow. How much can it cost though? I had £2m worth of PLI for £140 a year when I had my tiling company, although I do appreciate that the pool of people/companies wanting bonding insurance is smaller than those wanting PLI!
My issue now, is that I need an accurate (sensible) base cost to work from, assuming I can get an ATOL licence etc. From then, I can work out potential freight income, passenger costs etc. This, I am sure I will get....eventually.
So, off to watch 13 Ghosts now and I will post my progress 'as is,when is'
Quick update chaps. You know, I often wondered what it would be like to have a foookin mad idea and rather than talk about it-try and do something about it.Why regret what you havn't done, rather than what you have?
That may well be coming from my once again, new found confidence of my business acumen, having just sold a car for £600 that I paid £250 for 3 days ago.(I also have a tasty,1 titled owner, full history, Scenic RXE with twin sunroof and eyeball freezing air con coming up soon. It is a bit pockmarked on the outside but a lovely car otherwise...£995 with 12 months MOT and 6 months tax)But I digress
So, all things being equal, I will have my small business ATOL licence application in next week.(dipping a toe in the water,as it where, for anyone who cares to look up what that particular licence is)
I have an 'in principal' agreement for an insurance backed ATOL bond (although, strangely, they do want a 'small premium')....more of that later, (if any one fancies a bit of a share of an air charter company, feel free to PM me!)
Now, the whole scheme falls down without a name!(and an aircraft or passengers, of course, but I'm having chats on Monday about that) So! Any suggestions? Expat Air? New World Air? (NWA for those who are old enough?) Hawk Air, Tern Air? (for you birdwatchers out there)
I am trying to avoid names like 'Flying High!' motto 'We Will Always Get You Down'....although, I actually quite like that.
Suggestions please.....and the winner 'may' get a free flight....
Thoughts most welcome and I will keep you all updated!
Ed
That may well be coming from my once again, new found confidence of my business acumen, having just sold a car for £600 that I paid £250 for 3 days ago.(I also have a tasty,1 titled owner, full history, Scenic RXE with twin sunroof and eyeball freezing air con coming up soon. It is a bit pockmarked on the outside but a lovely car otherwise...£995 with 12 months MOT and 6 months tax)But I digress
So, all things being equal, I will have my small business ATOL licence application in next week.(dipping a toe in the water,as it where, for anyone who cares to look up what that particular licence is)
I have an 'in principal' agreement for an insurance backed ATOL bond (although, strangely, they do want a 'small premium')....more of that later, (if any one fancies a bit of a share of an air charter company, feel free to PM me!)
Now, the whole scheme falls down without a name!(and an aircraft or passengers, of course, but I'm having chats on Monday about that) So! Any suggestions? Expat Air? New World Air? (NWA for those who are old enough?) Hawk Air, Tern Air? (for you birdwatchers out there)
I am trying to avoid names like 'Flying High!' motto 'We Will Always Get You Down'....although, I actually quite like that.
Suggestions please.....and the winner 'may' get a free flight....
Thoughts most welcome and I will keep you all updated!
Ed
Silent1 said:
ConAir - a new prison ship for a new century
HeHe 
.......although, I see your ducklings and raise you a Cygnet! (best said in an 'allo, allo!') frenchey accent.....taken on the housebout, with mum sitting next to me on the deck scoffing seed out of my hand.CygnetAir?......
fingers not working
Edited by TVR1 on Monday 4th October 10:54
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