Applying music theory to imptovisation

[Disastrous]

Bit of an odd question this:

I've been playing guitar since forever and think I'm ok/good (play in a well-regarded band, gig regularly etc etc). I'm definitely a singer first though, and play rhythm in the band, but still take the odd solo and like to have a jam from time to time.

I've been trying to focus on my guitar a bit of late (because I just bought another guitar at Christmas and am still all excited by it) and feel that I've plateaued a bit. I'm at the stage where I can pretty much okay most things, and given the time and be-bothered ness, I can learn a solo for tab or by ear but I'm quite lazy about doing that and if I'm honest, learning other people's solos doesn't especially blow my hair back.

What I want to do is get better at improvising my own. Having recently been watching Springsteen's '78 darkness tour, and in particular the solo at the beginning of Prove it All Night (if you now it, you'll know it) and want to do that! I love the soulfulness of it and the fact that he's covering a lot of the fretboard and clearly off on a bit of a journey.

Now here's the thing. I'm pretty ok with music theory, I started off playing classical guitar when I was a kid and did my theory grades up to a decent standard. I did music at Uni and did a term of composition so have a grasp of harmonic theory, relative majors/minors and in relation to guitar, what pentatonic shapes, extensions and so on work.

I'm not too interested in modes and have no desire to be the next satriani/malmsteen and if I'm honest, that stuff does nothing for me so I'm happy with my theory (jazz will be my next direction but let's leave that for now!) at present.

The thing is, it's pen and paper stuff. I dint actually think when I'm playing "I'm in this key, and now im moving to the relative minor and there's me back in the major and here's me slipping in a blue note" - I just play it. It happens to fast to really think about it and I would always need a second to tell you what key I'm in, what my root is etc. A second is too long whilst you're actually playing though.

So I feel I get trapped into playing the same licks and patterns a bit. Which is annoying.

So onto my question, if you've made it this far:

Do the really good guys think all that st through whilst they're actually playing?! Or do they just know more licks and patterns than me!?

I'm wondering whether to focus my time on the theory and do boring stuff like get faster at reading the whole fretboard and do execrcise jumping from scale to scale, or would I be better served just pulling apart great solos stealing licks, playing by ear and not worrying too much about how they all fit together? I have a sneaking suspicion the nobody really thinks it all through as they play but any pointers much appreciated!

Thanks.

[Disastrous]

dojo said:

All the decent players I know have their theory down and the jazzers even more. Lets say you're doing basic pentatonic improvisation, you at least need to know the key so you start in the right key, you can't scratch around until you hit upon something that works.

Agreed - but knowing what key to play in is pretty simple, I reckon. I suppose what I'm getting at is more going beyond that to different shapes around the fretboard, inversions etc etc. I *know* all that stuff but not so quickly I can just jump about at will - I need to think it through, which you can't really do once you're playing.

[quote=dojo
If you have a mega ear then maybe but I've always found studying the theory allowed me to know what would work then you experiment with it and decide what sounds you like and the incorporate that in to your playing.

Good luck

This sounds more like learning licks though, than actually applying theory as you play? Apologies if I've picked you up wrongly but let's say you're playing in G and (I'm keeping this as basic as possible so as not to introduce extra variables) know what fret you're starting on and what scale you want to use. I guess it's easy enough to learn a few patterns of a scale from there plus extensions and whatnot but it's a lot tougher to then dip in and out of the 'correct' key to play imperfect but musically cohesive notes or whatever just off the top of your head.

For me, I almost need to work out some runs/double stops/you name it in advance and then incorporate them into whatever shape I'm playing in, and I feel this limits me a bit to stuff I already know works. It becomes a process of sticking various blocks of notes that you know already work, together and in the right key (which is really the easy bit).

I feel as though I'm missing out on some sort of complete freedom to explore the whole fretboard and know exactly what note is coming next. But then a part of me thinks that surely nobody actually does that and the great players simply have far more 'blocks' to draw on than I do?

In essence, if you hit the pause button midway through a Clapton solo and asked him what note's coming next, would he say "I'm in an A minor pentatonic in *this* position and as such my next note will be D" or would he be more "8th fret, under my pinky, whatever that is..."

(I appreciate he could work it out but is he doing that as he's playing or is he 'just playing'?)

[Disastrous]

I guess I'm maybe not explaining myself well.

I know theory to a good standard first on piano, then on guitar and I know my shapes.

My question is really whether really great guitarists actually *think* the theory through as they're playing, or whether it's just muscle memory and throwing together lots of already learned licks in various shapes?

Which leads onto am I better practicing scales and drills to improve that aspect, or analysing good solos, pulling out licks that work and increasing my pallete of building blocks to draw on.

Does that make sense?

I don't think the answer is just 'practice' unless you're a beginner. Practice what, is the obvious counter once you're past the early stages?

[Disastrous]

Hoofy said:

I'd practice scales and keep practising them until you can do them without thinking about how your fingers should move. It's one thing to know where you want your fingers to be but another to get them to do things fluidly and without mistakes. I'd also practice mini riffs. When I play, I always notice there are certain "tunes" that I end up playing amongst the stuff I'm making up on the fly.

I think this is key, and me in a nutshell. Whatever you want to call 'em - sequences, runs, riffs whatever - I'm becoming more and more convinced as I think about it that great improvisers are sticking these together, rafter than crafting coherent musical theory 'live'.

Despite having studied for years, I still prefer my ear and feel over a more scientific approach and whilst I might be able to analyse something after I playes it, and tell you what it was, I'm definitely not thinking it through at the time.

It makes sense to me that BB King say, knowing what key he's in etc will just naturally have a few shapes his hands will fall to, and will probably know instinctively that *this* shape connects well with *that* one so his hands can kind of go there themselves.


Eta - interesting discussion. Thanks for chiming in y'all.

Edited by Disastrous on Thursday 29th January 20:10

[Disastrous]

Very interesting. Thank you GC, for the recommendation. I'm not aware of his work but will listen forthwith.

I'd like to get into a bit of jazz. In truth the appeal for me is more being able to self accompany on the guitar to standards/GAS type stuff, and part of that seems to include the little improvised melodic runs between shapes when you're playing a sort of blend of rhythm and lead.

My soloing tends to be all rock though, and I'm very old-skool in my tastes. I pretty much hate Steve Vai type jazz fusion stuff in my rock and ally favourite guitarists don't seem to play all that many notes, whatever that says about me!