Tonewoods: Scientifically sound or just a load of *******?

[Evangelion]

The ‘tonewoods’ debate continues. These are the facts:

1. Tonewoods fanbois claim that if you take an electric guitar whose body is made of a certain type of wood, then change it to a different wood, you will hear a difference in the sound.

2. The rest of claim that it will make no difference.

And there facts end and opinions begin. Here is my take on it:

If you play an acoustic guitar (or indeed any other acoustic string instrument such as a violin, mandolin or even piano) the vibrations from the strings will pass into the body, thence into the surrounding air, producing the sound that reaches the listener’s ears (or the microphone if it’s being recorded.) It is thus logical to conclude that this sound may be affected by the material from which the instrument is made. This explains why some more woods are more common than others, such as spruce for guitar or violin tops, and why solid tops are said to be better than laminated (a posh term for plywood).

An electric guitar, however, produces its sound in a completely different way. The metal strings vibrate in the field of a magnet, thereby inducing a current in a coil of wire wrapped round said magnet. This current then passes to the amplifier, which magnifies it and feeds it into a speaker, thence into the surrounding air, producing the sound for the ears or mike as before. This may bear little or no resemblance to the ‘acoustic’ sound, i.e., what you hear when you play it unplugged.

So how does the wood affect the sound? I say it doesn’t. The job of an electric guitar is to prevent the string vibration entering the body because once it gets there it is lost as far as the pickup is concerned; the magnet can only detect metal, not wood. The more solid the construction, the bridge and the nut are, the more tone and sustain stays in the strings where it belongs. (This was why Les Paul’s initial experiments were done using a length of railroad sleeper.) Therefore, if the guitar’s doing its job properly, vibrations from the strings will not leak away into the body and what it’s made of will make no difference to the amplified sound. (Notice I said ‘amplified’ sound.)

Well that’s my opinion; I’m sure others may differ and I welcome your comments. However they do need to be logical and scientific; Non-sequiturs such as ‘it’s obvious’ or ‘it stands to reason’ will be jumped on and held up to ridicule.

I’d like to make just two more points:

It’s funny that many of the people who are trying to persuade us that some woods sound better than others, have a vested interest in that they build and sell guitars. And it’s a strange coincidence that the woods they say are the best, are also the most expensive.

[Evangelion]

I agree that the pickup is the most important factor in determining the guitar's sound, but the neck comes a close second. (Again, just an opinion, but one based on years of experience and much listening to people who know what they're talking about.)

[Evangelion]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I'm saying that the contribution of the wood is so minimal that the effect of changing to a different wood will be inaudible, therefore the idea that different woods sound different is illogical.

[Evangelion]

I'm saying this: Everything on the instrument contributes something to the sound. The type of pickups, the number of pickups, their positions, the type of wire and number of turns, the type and strength of the magnets, the values and tapers of the pots, whether it's a trem or a hardtail, strings through the body or not, the material and gauge of strings, the scale length, whether the neck is bolt-on, fixed or through, whether the head is six in a row or three on a side, etc. And I haven't even mentioned the setup; action, relief and pickup height (these I consider to be particularly important).

If the wood makes any contribution, it's a drop in the ocean compared to all these other factors.

[Evangelion]

JoeCastle said:

Lucas CAV said:

What does better mean?

Well, as Ed Roman has the laws of physics to back him up, better than any guitar with 22 or 21 frets http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/22vs24.htm

I can see the logic behind that, if what he says about the different position of the neck pickup is correct. But of course you don't have to play chords on the neck pickup of a Les Paul, I've always used both together. I also don't understand why having 24 frets will change the string tension unless other changes are made too. I must have read that bit wrong.

(Don't forget what I said before - this guy is trying to persuade you to buy the guitars he builds.)

[Evangelion]

MiggyA said:

... as far as nodes go they all move anyway as soon as you play anything other than an open string.

No I got that bit, he's saying that if you play a Les Paul at the 5th, 7th, 12th fret etc., it will put the node over the neck pickup. He then goes on to claim that with 24 frets it doesn't, because the neck pickup is in a different place. It will however take a fair bit of thought to decide whether he's correct or not, and I'm not sure I'm capable of that much thought at my age.

(Notice he makes no mention of how all this will affect the bridge pickup.)

[Evangelion]

Balsa's a crap example too, as it wouldn't be strong enough to hold everything together!

(Unless, of course, someone out there has tried it and knows different.)

[Evangelion]

Yes, but so far no one's actually said why one wood has to sound different from another. It just seems to be something that's stated, and you're not supposed to disagree with it.

[Evangelion]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

A ridiculous question, drums are acoustic instruments, not electric, the entire drum vibrates and contributes to the sound.

I don't doubt that the body of an electric guitar vibrates; after all you can feel it. What I don't understand is why people think that vibration can get into the pickups, when pickups are magnetic devices that can only 'hear' metal, not wood. What part of this can people not understand?

[Evangelion]

What I don't understand is, why people seem to think there is this mysterious 'difference' between woods because so far, no-one has been able to explain what it is.

[Evangelion]

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

Piezo pickups are not magnetic though, they're made of crystals that create an electrical current when they're squeezed. It's like having a little microphone in your guitar.

(And by the way, I've never thought they gave an authentic acoustic sound. If I want to record or amplify an acoustic, I just shove a real microphone in front of it.)

[Evangelion]

Mave said:

I agree. But are you saying that the way that the strings vibrate (which you agree is the same whether or not the guitar is plugged in) is independent of the wood, or dependent on the wood?

I am of course saying independent. But even if wood does have an effect, whatever that may be, why do people imagine that different types of woods will have different effects? I did ask before, "What is this mysterious 'difference' between woods?", but I notice nobody answered.

And in case you say density, here is a list of the relative densities between woods used to make guitar bodies:

Alder 0.4 – 0.7
Ash 0.65 – 0.85
Basswood 0.3 – 0.6
Mahogany 0.5 – 0.85
Obeche 0.39
Pine 0.35 – 0.67
Poplar 0.35 – 0.5
Sycamore 0.4 – 0.6

Notice that in some cases there is more variation within single types of wood, than between different types of wood.

[Evangelion]

OldSkoolRS said:

I thought of this thread when I saw this one on My Les Paul:

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3...

"Do you think guitars has (sic) break in period?"

Interesting thread although I have a feeling many of the comments are tongue in cheek.

I can't see the point of putting it in the attic for a few years. I tried that with a girlfriend once, and never heard the end of it.

[Evangelion]

Plus there's also the psychological aspect in that an instrument which makes you feel better, can inspire you to play better.
(This is why I think necks are really important.)

[Evangelion]

New strings sound different to old ones because rust and other muck builds up over time to dampen the vibrations hence deaden the sound. Then you fit a new set and all that is gone, it's back to normal.

You can lessen this buildup by cleaning the strings every time you play. I do this even if it's only for a minute and one side effect is that I haven't broken a string in years. (Actually I broke one last month, but that was a guitar I'd just bought which had the cruddiest strings I've ever seen.)

[Evangelion]

Already told you - it dampens the vibrations of the strings, in the same way that you can damp the strings by resting the heel of your hand on them. No one's suggesting that the pickups can hear your skin, they're just hearing the change in the string vibrations.

[Evangelion]

I've already said I've no problem with different types of construction affecting the sound; factors like number and position of pickups, values of electronic components, scale length, bolt-on/glued-in/through necks etc. I can even accept that wood might have a bearing on the sound. What I don't buy into is that changing to another type of wood can have any effect, and that some woods are somehow 'better' than others (which is basically what the tonewoods fanbois are saying).

Explain to me, scientifically, what causes this mysterious 'difference' between woods. And why the more expensive woods are invariably claimed to be better. Strange coincidence, that.