REAL Off-road built like a tank that doesn't break the bank?

[J4x4K]

Hi everybody!

First time posting. But I have been reading for a while.

I want to buy a SUV with real off road capabilities. So the poser luxury cars posing as off roads don't count. Not looking for something with a lot of plastic and beauty appliances wrapped around.

It also needs to be reliable and built like a tank.

But it can't be a crappy ride because it will also be my daily family ride. And it needs to be 4 doors as well.

The reason it needs to be built like a tank is because we just had a baby and there are way too many idiots driving out there. We have a case in the family of somebody who was turned into a vegetable by an idiot who hit their car in the back while standing on a red light. So I want to ditch my current car to by a "road tank". I thought an off-road would be the best idea since I also enjoy off-roading.

The off-roading will be mainly weekend trips. But as we live around the mountains it's also great to have a capable 4x4 for the snowy winter.

To be honest, apart from the off-roading, a Hummer H1 would be perfect in many ways. But way too expensive and also a bit too big. Plus the off roading is not that great. If you get stuck it's hard to get it out etc. Besides I'm not sure I would really like to drive a Hummer around town. But you get what I'm aiming for.

So I had originally thought of a Land Rover Defender. But I learned it has a rural ride and this is to be my daily family driver. So I need some level of comfort. Need nothing fancy. Just some basics. So the Defender is out.

Lastly it would be good if I like how the car looks like. It's at the bottom of my needs list but still.

So here are the ones I have narrowed down to:

XJ Cherokee: Heard it's very reliable, a real off road and they are not expensive. They have a reasonable level of comfort without being one of those poser trucks.

Lada Niva 4 doors: I'm learning they are hard to find and way more pricey than the 2 doors version.


This is basically the only two I seem to be sure about apart from the H1 and Defender.

But I also looked at a 1st generation Pathfinder as I read it's the best out of them and the toughest. But not sure about it. Also heard the Xterra is OK, but they never sold it in Europe so I can't buy them here.

The Wrangler Unlimited is expensive and seems to not be a good daily driver and I'm also not sure about the safety against crashes. The normal Wrangler is not exactly a tank. Great off road though, of course.

Are there any other recommendations?

Trying to stay under 5K budget.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Edited by J4x4K on Monday 11th May 17:02

[J4x4K]

SHutchinson said:

What kind of car do you use for off-roading at the moment?

I don't have an off road at the moment. Had a Niva back in the day.

[J4x4K]

scrwright said:

XJs and nivas are old designs that dont fare well in crashes. Get something more modern

Really? This is not what I have heard. But I'm not talking about frontal crashes etc. In a frontal crash in the speedway, at that speed no car will be 100% safe. I'm more worried about small stuff like idiots hitting you when you are standing still etc.

But I heard the XJ is very tough and the I had a Niva and although it's light I had the impression that in a crash with a normal car it would be indestructible. With a big heavy truck or bus is a different matter of course.

[J4x4K]

Truckosaurus said:

Land Cruiser.

Although I'm not convinced it would be any safer than £5k's worth of Volvo S60 with a full complement of airbags and crumple zones.

Not a big fan of the Land Cruiser. It's more in that big luxury truck category. Are they really that good?

[J4x4K]

Gary C said:

I was going to suggest a land cruiser, Kannku use them and they seem to work great off-road with some diff guards.

Not bad on the road and as safe as most. A Nissan patrol is built like a tank. Saw one in collision with a focus which was torn apart while the patrol just had a leaky radiator and was able to drive home while the focus driver had to be cut out.

But of course it's tyres that will give it snow capability which can be a bit noisy on a dry road.

Well, I can have different tires for winter or snow. This is not a big deal.

Interesting about the Nissan Patrol. Which generation was it? Although the newer ones seem a bit "sissy-fied", the 4th generation ones look pretty tough.

The problem is that there was a time when off roads were just that. Then soccer moms and everybody started buying them and even some tough older ones became basically luxury trucks, filled to the gills with optionals, wrapped in plastic ground effects and decoration, so heavy and big that it would get stuck everywhere and just more luxury than toughness. So it's hard to know what to get these days. Reason I'm looking more at the old generation trucks.

I know car design evolved to be safer for crashes than older models. But the way it works is a modern car is safer than a 1950's chevy because it is designed to disintegrate and absorb impact. But there is something to be said about an off-road with actual steel bumpers instead of plastic covered ones and something just built like a tank. Like I'm sure design wise a modern SUV like some Hyundai is made to be safer for crashes from a technology point of view. But I'm sure a Hummer H1 would crush it and barely have a scratch, even tough the Hummer design is what now, 20 years at least? You know where I'm coming from?

I think those SUVs that worry too much about being pretty have their priorities screwed.

[J4x4K]

PhillipM said:

The point of modern crumple zones is that something 'built like a tank' that 'just crushes' whatever it runs into transfers all that shock into the cabin/occupants and does exactly what you're trying to avoid in the first place.

Yes, I understand the principle.

But take for example the example I mentioned in the family. The impact was not even that hard. The car was a modern car and and I'm sure utilized the modern crumple zones. But he is now a vegetable for life. What hit it in the back was also just a car, not a truck or anything. According to witnesses the hit didn't look like a big deal at all. I have the impression had it been a bigger or tougher car it would have barely moved with the impact, or maybe if it was a lifted off road it would have hit the tires.

Take the example by Gary C about the Patrol vs the Focus and the Focus disintegrated but the Patrol was OK. I'm sure the Focus uses modern crumple zones? And it looks like the Patrol may have been an older model or it would also have broken apart because of the crumple zones. But according to what Gary said it looks like it didn't.


I mean, do you honestly think a car hitting a Hummer H1 would harm the Hummer occupants unless like extreme high speeds, which then everything is basically a moot point anyways?

Edited by J4x4K on Monday 11th May 13:21

[J4x4K]

Somebody I was talking too just suggested a Hummer H2. Apparently they are not a poser like the H3 which is basically a Chevy Blazer with new skin. Not as legit as the H1 I'm sure but seems to be a real Hummer of sorts. Also not as weird to drive around town as the H1 I suppose and nowhere as expensive as the H1. Although I doubt a good one can be found for 5K and I think there would still be some stigma of driving a Hummer around.

[J4x4K]

nute said:

How about an old VW Toureag (sp?)

Will have to be a v high milage one for 5K but well built, good off road and good on road ride. Will need to be a Mk1 as VW removed the proper 4wd when they "upgraded" the model in 2010ish. Prior to this date they all had locking central diff and low ratio but then it vanished in favour of the std all wheel drive system. The oldr ones also have a pump on the coling system which lets you get 20mins heat via the cabin heater without running the engine.

I do a lot of shooting and farm work and with the right tyres its very good off road. Fuel economy isnt great though...

Not a fan of it stylistically. But I'm sure they are built like tanks, at least mechanically. When it comes to VW you can shoot them with a bazuca and they will still find a way to run. Externally not so sure though. But if I'm to start considering these plastic wrapped and more fancy SUVs I might as well just buy some Grand Cherokee and call it a day. It's a Jeep, has some luxury and seems to be good in off roading as well.

[J4x4K]

Truckosaurus said:

The smaller Prado/Colorado model is a similar size to an early Discovery, Cherokee or Pathfinder.

The proper Amazons are big but not really luxurious.

Do the Land Cruisers have anything on the Nissan Patrols? I kind of like the Patrols better specially the Y60.

[J4x4K]

Gary C said:

It was an old patrol (mid 90's I think) built when they did not have to pass the same crash tests as cars so much more ridiged.

So it was the Y60. I thought so. It looks as tough as a tank! Best looking one from all the Patrols too.

Gary C said:

I think it used the focus as a crumple zone !. I think if you hit a big tree or a motorway bridge stanchion, it might be a different story I suppose.

Hehehe. I guess saying the Focus did become the crumple zone is not off. Hence why I want a bigger car than just a normal sized car. But I'm not really worried about trees or bridges and walls. In 20 years of driving I have never hit anybody or anything. I don't drive like a maniac or irresponsibly. Not even in my younger years I did this kind of thing. I'm more worried about idiots hitting me than me hitting anything. As most vehicles on the road are cars, chances are more of the idiots drive cars instead of off roads. So more cars to be used as crumple zones if they hit me. If they hit me it's their own fault.

Gary C said:

The land cruiser I always though of as a Chelsea tractor until I did an off road driving day with Kannku in the lakes. While I drove the landrover, the others in the group were in land cruisers and they did everything the landrover did, and I mean proper off road stuff, not just a muddy track.

Ok. Just not a fan of them or any of the Toyota trucks. If I have to go Japanese, one of the Nissans would probably be my call. Either Pathfinder or Patrol etc. But then again why not just a Grand Cherokee if I am to go that big? What do you think of them? I like better the XJ Cherokee but...

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

Y60 Patrols are thin on the ground nowadays (especially with the most desirable 4.2td engine) and often rusty.

Ok, but if I would find one in good condition are they really that much worse than the Y61? The Y60 is the only Patrol I like in terms of looks.

TurboHatchback said:

The Y61 patrol is a better vehicle all round IMHO.

Could you elaborate in which way?

TurboHatchback said:

For £5k the full size Landcruiser you would be looking at is the 80 series. These are proper beasts, built to last and take on pretty much anything you can think of. They weigh 2.5+ tons, have immensely strong live axles (coil sprung), triple electric locking differentials and proper engines (4.2td I6 or 4.5 petrol I6), if you're after the daddy of off road trucks that can still be used as a family car then these are it.

Quite large a car. But at least the J80 is my favorite of them and the last one I would consider. Starting with the J100 they look horrible and seem like just a poser luxury truck. Even if they aren't. Back when I was still considering the Defender I thought of a FJ40 for a brief moment. But that is a tractor. The new FJ seem nice but too expensive. But I heard it's a proper off road.

TurboHatchback said:

That said if safety is what you're after then a big old 4x4 is not the answer. Yes they are big, strong and heavy but they don't stop or turn anything like a decent car, they will roll under certain violent cornering moves, they don't have the active safety features that a modern car has etc etc. Living in the UK I can safely say you don't need one either, a normal largish car possibly with AWD and winter tyres is the practical answer, an Audi A6 Quattro Avant or Subaru Legacy etc. I've had two 80 series Landcruisers, they are great at what they do but for day to day use they are totally unnecessary and rather compromised.

It's interesting that you say that because the family member who became a vegetable from a small rear crash was in an 2012 Audi.
Like i said, I'm more worried about idiots hitting me than me hitting anything. I don't drive like a maniac or irresponsibly. I know a truck won't turn like a Ferrari so I won't drive it like one. By the way, I'm not in the UK. I live around the Alpes now and although not directly at the Alpes it gets pretty hilly if i drive just a few minutes off.

[J4x4K]

Gary C said:

The land cruiser I always though of as a Chelsea tractor until I did an off road driving day with Kannku in the lakes.

As hard to believable as it may seen, somebody just suggested me a Cadillac Escalade! Talk about Chelsea tractor. Is there are more useless SUV? That was after I had mentioned I need a proper 4x4 and don't want a poser truck. Some people are just so out of touch.

Edited by J4x4K on Monday 11th May 17:01

[J4x4K]

DelicaL400 said:

A Delica L400?

A Minivan? Not what I'm looking for. If I would ever decide to drive a van around there is only one 4x4 van I would want. VW LT 4x4.

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

J4x4K said:

Ok, but if I would find one in good condition are they really that much worse than the Y61? The Y60 is the only Patrol I like in terms of looks.

TurboHatchback said:

The Y61 patrol is a better vehicle all round IMHO.

Could you elaborate in which way?

The driveline of the Y61 is just as strong as the Y60 as is the chassis. The Y61 suspension is better (detachable roll bar for huge articulation whilst still maintaining a modicum of body control on the road). Basically the Y61 has all the toughness and and off road capability that the Y60 does but with a degree of civility that means it can be practically used every day on the road. The Y60 4.2td is a good strong and vaguely economical engine but all the others are either very slow or very thirsty. The Y61 with the 3.0Di engine is reasonably economical and fast enough for what it is.

So you mean the Y60 is not a good daily driver?

And how do you think a Patrol would fair against a Pathfinder?

TurboHatchback said:

J4x4K said:

It's interesting that you say that because the family member who became a vegetable from a small rear crash was in an 2012 Audi.
Like i said, I'm more worried about idiots hitting me than me hitting anything. I don't drive like a maniac or irresponsibly. I know a truck won't turn like a Ferrari so I won't drive it like one. By the way, I'm not in the UK. I live around the Alpes now and although not directly at the Alpes it gets pretty hilly if i drive just a few minutes off.

I am also only really worried about people crashing into me rather than the other way round but I still maintain that in a normal modern performance car you are much better able to dodge out the way of idiots or stop when they blindly pull out into your path. I'm not by any means suggesting that 4x4s are unsafe, just that on balance a large modern performance car is safer.

Ok. With a performance car I think it would corner and break better than a truck. But most cars on the road are not performance cars. Do you think most cars on the road, meaning normal, run of the mill cars, would break and corner and be safer than an off road? I don't know. I just feel that 9 out of 10 times a larger and tough 4x4 SUV when crashed against a car will get out of the crash with less damage to the car and occupants. Now crashing on fixed objects like walls and trees is a different matter, but this is for all cars. But when crashing against other vehicles, unless in extreme cases, the tougher, bigger and heavier vehicle will always survive better than the smaller, weaker lighter one. No?

So if a SUV can't stop before a car hits it when the idiot blindly pull out into your path, the idiot vehicle, if a normal car will take most of the damage anyways.

Edited by J4x4K on Monday 11th May 23:00

Edited by J4x4K on Monday 11th May 23:13

[J4x4K]

SystemParanoia said:

errrm... unimog 416 is what you should have said

3.5t of indestructable awesome

I said van. The Unimog is a truck as far as I'm concerned.


But I heard it drives like a tractor, so not a good daily driver. And crazy expensive. Arnold has one, hehehe.

[J4x4K]

Howitzer said:

My Defender has a 4mm plate front bumper which has then been boxed in, it looks slightly different than normal but you have to be a fan to see the difference. It is solidly bolted to my chassis with 12.9 grade bolts and is incredibly solid.

When driving in Norway a colleague mentioned how if you lose grip and think all is lost, aim for a snow bank to reduce your speed. For a bit of fun I tried this at no more than 15 mph and I saw stars the stop was so quick. It was a very hard snow bank and the shock which went into my neck was an eye opener.

Crumple zones will save you, a solid chassis imo wont.

Dave!

Sure. But what do you make of the Patrol vs the Focus story?

Besides a Y61 Patrol is a lot more modern and advanced design than a Defender. There is a reason I cut the Defender off my list even before coming here. It's 1950's technology and design.

[J4x4K]

Howitzer said:

I see that aslong as you never hit anything more rigid than you then you will be ok.

This is the point. The odds are more that you will hit another vehicle or be hit by another vehicle than you will hit a wall. As long as you are a good driver, don't drive drunk etc.

Howitzer said:

So apart from most lorries, large vans, trees, barriers, buses, multiple impacts and the million other possible things to hit on our road network through either your own or someone elses fault you will probably be ok.

You make it sounds like the majority of vehciles on the road are bigger and tougher than a Patrol. It's the other way around. Bigger and tougher vehicles are the exception. I think you will be better off in a Patrol than a W164 for most collisions. Anything but a head on crash on a concrete wall or against another car head on, which is more rare than somebody bumping into you, scraps etc.

Howitzer said:

I chose a W164 ML as my everyday family car due to its safety cell and all round airbags, great brakes and road holding during hard manouvers.

I's not like a 2010 SUV is that much worse than this Mercedes, is it? Does it break and handle like a Ferrari or what?

Howitzer said:

I am in no way a "Think of the children parent" and take my 14 month old out in my Defender a lot but there is no getting away that the W164 is massively safer than most cars built even 10 years before.

I'm thinking of going with a Nissan Patrol Y61, which was made till 2010. Hardly 10 years. Actually it is still being made and sold today to the UN and Military.

Howitzer said:

I crashed a Hilux in Africa, it was a brand new 2004 model and after a snafoo the only thing saving the cabin from being crushed was the roll bar ours were fitted with. Old technology and rigid chassis.

Did you crash it into a rock? To crash on standing objects like a wall, trees etc that's where a crumple zone system is superior. To carsh into smaller and lighter moving things, toughness is better. As most vehicles or rather the huge majority of vehicles are smaller and les tough than a Land Cruiser or Patrol, odds are for it over the weaker crumple zone based vehicles. I'm sure a Patrol would destroy a W164 in a crash and the Patrol occupants would probably be better off.

[J4x4K]

Stu R said:

Patrols are bombproof if you don't mind the agricultural engine and box. I've had 2 of them, amongst other things. Land cruisers are better but more complex, neither has form for breaking.

More agricultural than a Defender? Hehehe.

Joke aside I don't know what you mean. I have now driven a 2001 Patrol Y61 and don't find it agricultural at all. To the contrary, it's quite comfortable, more so than I thought it would be. Pity it was too rusty and had more on the clock than I'm looking for.

By the way, can anybody tell me if I should be afraid of high mileage Y61 Patrols? What's considered high mileage for them?

[J4x4K]

Howitzer said:

No rock, the rear shackle snapped, the back axle turned through 45 degrees and it flipped onto its roof. No more than 60kph when it happened.



I've certainly not got a downer on these cars, I just think safety has come a long long way and the way modern 4X4s are built compared to older styles makes them far safer.

Dave!

Ok if you fall on your head not even crumble zones would have saved you anyway. Totally different situation and quite rare in an urban scenario.

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

Fundamentally the only safety advantage ladder chassis 4x4s have is size, weight and height. A current Range Rover (equivalent size, weight and height) with its Monocoque chassis, safety cell and crumple zones etc will be safer in every form of collision than an old ladder chassis 4x4 with no crumple zones. A 4x4 is more likely to ride up over another car (and less likely to suffer the same) but otherwise I maintain a large luxury car like the S-Class, Phaeton etc is safer (I believe the statistics back this up too).

The topic was getting too loaded and people were just ignoring my points. So I decided to speak to a professional, specialist. He confirmed what I was thinking. It just makes sense.

It's all about momentum. A larger and heavier car will generate more momentum at same speeds than a lighter car. Like he said, crumble zones help immensely, but there are types of crash that you would rather be in a car like a Patrol. An exaggerated example is a bus vs a car. The car can have as many crumble zones as it wants, you will be better off in the bus. Now the difference between a bus and car is much larger than between a Patrol and a car. But the example holds to debunk the myth that crumble zones trump all.

Also the height counts. He was saying how there is pressure for manufacturers to make SUVs closer to normal car heights because the higher SUVs although safer for the SUV riders is more dangerous to the car driver. This is probably why we have so many of them useless crossovers. They can be lower. So as he said, in a car as high as the Patrol you also have an advantage over the huge majority of the vehicles out there. The hit will come from the bottom rather than head on. If you have a plate the Patrol will lift up, acting as an absorber of sorts.

In his words, ultimately, crumble zones help but they are there, well, to crumble. They won't help if they crumble till they reach you and smash you. And when colliding with a heavier and larger vehicle this is more prone to happen because the other vehicle has more momentum. So it's again the story of the Patrol using the Ford Focus as it's own personal crumble zone. And he continued...as in the motorway everybody tends to be going at the speed limit, at the same speed the larger and heavier vehicle will always have more momentum.

He also confirmed to me that vehicle vs vehicles is by far the most usual type of collision or auto accident, which I already suspected and tried making the point here but was ignored.

So it basically goes like this:

-Vehicle vs vehicle, which is again the most common type of collision, the Patrol vs 90% of cars driving on European roads, you are probably safer in the Patrol or at least as safe. In the U.S. where a car considered large in Europe is a mere medium-sized car the picture would be only slightly different but still hold. But their roads are not full with Smarts, Lupos, Golfs, Fiestas, Focus, 308 and other Hatchbacks and small-medium cars, which constitutes the majority of the European fleet.

-Against another large vehicle like a truck or SUV, the Patrol is better than in a car or crossover which are lighter and lower.

-Rear ending a lorry or large truck stopped at a red light? You want to be in the Patrol. Your crumble zone won't help you as the rear lorry bumper will hit straight at your windshield.

-Against a tree, if it's a very large tree, the car with crumble zones is better for sure. If a smaller tree, the Patrol could go through it and still drive home with you unhurt. The crumble zone car would need the be tolled but the occupants would off course be safe too.

-Against a concrete wall, the crumble zone car, no doubt! Here the extra momentum becomes your enemy.

-Roll overs you are probably better of in the Patrol too.


Most common accidents is order:

Vehicle vs vehicle in motion
Vehicle vs vehicle with one standing still (rear endings I'm sure)
Vehicle vs stationary objects

Another thing to consider depending where you live is vehicle vs animal or pedestrian. You hit a cow with your car and you will be safe but your car is gone. With a Patrol and a bull bar, you will still be unharmed and you can drive home. There are several reports of this online.

If you research online you will find several reports of Y60 and Y61 hitting all sorts of things like cars, cows, kangaroos and smaller trees at speeds like 100 and coming off unharmed and being able to drive home because their car didn't crumble to the ground. Being rear ended and being able to drive home and not the hospital and with barely a scratch on the Patrol.


As for crash tests and points, like he said, the crash tests also take into consideration how much damage your vehicle inflicts. Crash tests also normally only test hits against stationary objects and here we know the Patrol suffers.

No car will bee 100% great in everything. You have to consider integrity of the car, integrity of the car occupants and integrity of the other car, integrity of the other car occupants. All this counts in those safety scores you see. A Patrol won't score well when it comes to integrity of the other car and integrity of the other car occupants. This will affect the Patrol's score and make it lower. But I would rather be in the Patrol. Sorry for the other occupants. But just don't hit me then.

So it bags the question, why not just have the best of both worlds and get a 4x4 which is also heavy but has crumble zones? Well, can you recommend one which fits by budget and is not a wuss or poser?

After searching and searching I have settled on the Patrol as the best option for me.