Ok, so I have narrowed it down to these vehicles. What now?

[J4x4K]

Since the other thread became long and was straying off topic I thought I would start a new one, now that I have narrowed it down to 3 vehicles.

Interestingly they were all far way from my list when I started this. But thanks to posters like Truckosaurus, Gary C, TurboHatchback and jay140285 I took a second look at them.

So after a little more research I have narrowed it down to this 3, in this order:

Nissan Patrol Y61
Toyota Land Cruiser J80
Jeep Grand Cherokee WJ

The Land Cruiser Prado is just not my cup of tea.

The Hummer H2 I'm skeptical it is just a poser, a Chevy made to look tougher. Maybe is that Hummer stigma.

The Wrangler was always too small. I need 4-doors and the Unlimited is still rough and not as comfortable as a family car. Also blows my budget, which is 5,000.

My goals are the following, in order of importance:

1-Daily driver for the family. I want a tough car, built like a tank but still have some comfort. Don't need anything fancy like electrical seats or computer controlled ac. But simple AC, central lock, airbags and other safety things are a must.

2-Reliable, low maintenance. Don't want something that drinks too much gas, breaks down and is expensive or hard to repair.

3-Real off road capabilities for some weekend off roading. Nothing too hardcore. Mainly going camping with the wife and the baby and doing some off-roading. But would still like a real off road that could go anywhere, if or when I have to.


My personal opinion about the 3 I have chosen.

Patrol Y61: I originally only considered the Y60. It looks tougher. But TurboHatchback convinced me the Y61 is every bit as tough but a better car and also more modern. The Y61 is the last Patrol I would consider. From here on they seem to have gotten soft. Maybe this is why Nissan still sells them brand new to the United Nations and several armed forces around the world along with the Y60. They are manufactured alongside the current Patrol, specially for this. Makes you wonder why the UN and military doesn't use the current Patrol right? So the Y61 seem to check all my boxes, unless I missed something? And since I'm considering a Nissan, should I consider the Pathfinder? I always liked the WD21 series. But they seem too old now.

Land cruiser J80: The J80 is also the last Land Cruiser I would consider. From here on they seem to have gotten soft and according to my research there are a lot of people who share that opinion online. They became more Luxury trucks. But between Patrol and Land Cruiser it seems to be a toss up. Toyota fans will say this is better while Nissan fans will say Patrol all the way. i think both would probably fit my needs. But as I was never a Toyota fan and always preferred Nissan over Toyota, I'm putting the Patrol ahead. Just personal preference and I also like how the Y61 looks more than the J80. If it is a toss up then i might as well go with the one I like the looks better. Also between the Y61 and J80 the Y61 is the more modern car and has more niceties it seems. Because it's basically a generation newer.

Grand Cherokee: I know it's a Jeep (although it was actually it was born as a Chrysler). I always considered the real Jeeps to be the Wrangler and Cherokee and always saw the Grand Cherokee as a bit of a Chelsea Tractor or poser. But apparently they are quite capable. But as they seem not to be as reliable or tough as the Patrol and Land Cruiser and seem to need much more petro and have more plastic stuff around the body to break, I'm putting it in last. For the record I used to think of the Land Cruiser and Patrol as a bit of a Chelsea Tractor poser SUV too, probably based on the current models. But that was before I found out the J80 and Y61 are actually serious and can hang out with Defenders. If they use them in the UN in missions in Africa etc and in military forces around the world they can't be too bad.

I started this looking at the Niva 4-doors, Defender, Cherokee and Hummer H1. I basically saw any other SUV which is just about being pretty with plastic body work wrapped around and sports tires that belong more on a BMW M3 and not on an Off Road as posers. But it seems the LC and Patrol are better all around cars than the Niva, Defender, Cherokee and H1 and are still as good off roads and also built like tanks.

Any opinions are welcome for this second round of my off-road selection. If you didn't read the original thread it is here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Thanks for participating.

Edited by J4x4K on Wednesday 13th May 13:20

[J4x4K]

pcn1 said:

I'm very happy with my Grand WJ CRD after almost 4 years of ownership.
I think the Grand can trace its heritage back to the "Cherokee Chief" of years gone by, those American luxury 4x4's being the inspiration for the Range Rover model ???
Its not a Chelsea Tractor for sure, it has no appeal to most buyers who think a BMW/Audi/Range Rover are a status.

Get a good one and there very good value for money.

But they need a lot of fuel right? And I heard repairs are expensive in Europe. I'm sure in the U.S. they are cheap to maintain.

Anything by Audi, BMW and Mercedes (besides the G-wagen) is a Chelsea Tractor in my opinion. That BMW with a sports roof that doesn't know if it wants to be a Mustang or a truck makes me laugh every time. Land Rover also has many new models that seem to be made for nothing else but to pose.

[J4x4K]

jay140285 said:

Having had Jeep XJ off roader and WJ lifted in the past and currently have a ZJ highly prepped and WK lifted I can say they are no more expensive than anything else to maintain.

I have owned Jap 4x4, Range Rovers and since going Jeep there is no going back. Agreed everyone will rate their preference but Jeeps are mine.

Fuel wise, Petrol Jeeps wont be cheap to run but no big engine petrol will be, the 4.0litre runs really well on LPG. The WJ CRD is a good engine just keep an eye on injectors for leaking. You can now get into the new WK as per my link in your other Thread, these are very nice Jeeps and we average mid 25mpg combined with bigger tyres and 3inch lift.

When I came here I was pretty decided on a XJ. My goal was something like this:



But the guys here convinced me to go with a more modern design because it is safer. Since you hear nothing but bad stuff about the newer Cherokees after the XJ I decided to look outside of Jeep.

I know there is some prejudice against Japanese cars and specially trucks and specially in Europe (in Australia they are kings though.)

But it's hard to argue with the fact the UN and many other missions and armed forces use the Land Cruiser and Patrol. Besides Land Rovers,not many other off roads can claim that. As far as I know not even the US armed forces uses a Grand Cherokee. Not that this is the be all end all benchmark. But it definitely must mean something. So brand or nationality prejudice apart the Y61 and J80 are great vehicles. By the way, not saying you have prejudice against the Japanese trucks. But you know there are those who have.

But I'm a Jeep fan for sure. Specially of the Wrangle and XJ. The Grand Cherokee hasn't grown on me yet. I have this heavy, sluggish and more luxury than function image of it in my head. But I'm getting the feeling it may not be the case at all. But I would probably stick with the WJ. I want to avoid the very newer cars which are computer on wheels and have more stuff to break down or go wrong. Although I read one article which said the WJ is the weakest Grand Cherokee ever. But maybe it was just an isolated opinion as I didn't see anybody else saying that.

Regardless of which I end up going with, I will get a diesel, unless the gasoline version has something much better about it the diesel doesn't.

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

Generally the Cruiser and Patrol are heavier duty vehicles, their drivetrains are stronger and they are generally bigger and stronger. The prices are higher as a consequence due to their demand for work and towing. The Jeep is a bit smaller and lighter duty.

This sums up exactly my impressions too. I see the Grand Cherokee as lighter duty and not as strong.

I know it's an older design and much lighter as well, but how do you think the XJ fairs against the Patrol and Land Cruiser?

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

The XJ seems to have a good reputation for reliability (though not for crash performance) and off road capability. It is much smaller than a Cruiser or Patrol though, nearly a ton lighter and dimensionally more like a jacked up Golf estate car than a full size 4x4. There are two main things that put me off them, firstly the engines (the 4.0 petrol is reliable and powerful but horrendously thirsty and the VM 2.5td isn't great) and secondly old Jeeps tend to be a little 'loose' to drive i.e. they don't track very straight (requiring quite a bit of steering to go in a straight line) and they don't stop or turn terribly well, this gets much worse when they're modified too. I've not driven an XJ but I have driven a ZJ and I'm led to believe they're similar in that regard.

I don't really see the XJ as being in the same class as the Cruiser or Patrol, it is a much smaller and lighter vehicle. That's not always a bad thing, it depends on your requirements. The flip side is XJs can be picked up from about £500 whereas a decent Cruiser or Patrol will cost a lot more than that.

Thanks. Yeah, I have pretty much given up on a XJ. I just wanted to know your opinion.

The more I think the more I'm setting on a Y61. But then I think, if I'm going that big there are a lot of other options, like Americans like Suburban, Explorer or even Dodge. But then again like the Grand Cherokee they are probably not as good as the Patrol. What do you think?

And do you see anything else besides the Patrol and LC?

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

Some of the American stuff looks great but I wouldn't have one as a daily as they are possibly just too huge and being imports parts availability could be a pain and insurance might be problematic.

Yeah, I'm steering clear of them. A Dodge RAM is ridiculously huge and a truck. Basically useless as a real off road. I drove a Durango in the U.S. and it felt weak. The big Chevy like Suburban or Tahoe are also huge and heavy gas guzzlers. Of course the most ridiculous of them is the Expedition, if you don't count that Ford which is basically a lorry cab posing as a pick up truck. So none of those are real off roaders. Besides Wrangler and Cherokee, American just doesn't fit. The Explorer and other smaller ones are no competition for a Land Cruiser or Patrol.

TurboHatchback said:

As for other stuff, I was recently picking a 4x4 for my Iceland trip this summer and I similarly boiled it down a LC80, Y61 Patrol or WK Grand Cherokee 3.0 CRD which is quite a step on from the WJ (I've owned a commander which is the same platform). If you can afford a decent WJ then that could be a good contender, they are very capable and comfortable but considerably better on the road than the others (they're auto only again though).

I have now test driven one. I pretty much gave up on it. Don't like how it drives. Still has that Jeep thing that the old Cherokees had and after talking to many people, including the dealer, it will never be as reliable or easy to keep as a Patrol or Land Cruiser. Also looks a bit funny. Still has too much of a luxury SUV look. And what really killed it was this:

TurboHatchback said:

• Transmissions: The Jeep only comes in automatic, the Cruiser and Patrol come in both manual and auto. The manuals give notably better economy, the autos are more relaxing to drive.

I had initially overlooked this. But I will never buy an automatic car. Specially not an off roader. You kidding? Automatic cars are toys. I want the real thing.

TurboHatchback said:

I'd suggest trying them all and seeing what you think as it's quite a subjective decision, they're all good vehicles. Never buy the first thing that you see!

I tried doing this this weekend. Couldn't find a Y61 or J80 though. But drove two Grand Cherokees (WJ and WK), a Defender and a Discovery. The Grand Cherokees was like I said. Had too much of the big loose boat feeling U.S. cars have and if they are only automatic, forget it.

The Defender was actually worst than I thought. I always liked the look of the Defender and always said it would be the only Land Rover I would ever consider buying because all other models, meaning the latest generations, are too much of a Chelsea Tractor for me. Even though I know many of them are great off roaders. Just because I think most people who buy them never even get them dirty and only want to drive a LR. And although I always heard the Defender drove like a tractor, boy I had no idea. The thing is a caveman car! It feels worse than an old Toyota J40. I know it's a great off roader but in the city I would never want that. As a daily family driver it's unsuitable. But I know it's not made for that. I think a Defender is for people who only use it for off roading, puts it on a trailer and pulls it till the pay and play or whatever. To drive it long distances on the road is a neck breaker. Reason why a 110 makes no sense. For off-roading a 90 is much better. The 110 4-doors only if it was any good in the city. But no thanks!

The Discovery drives good on the road. But like I said, to me is a Chelsea Truck. Only drove it because the dealer insisted after I complained how agricultural the Defender was. Also it blows my budget as it was a shiny newer one. All white no else. Can we say posh-wagon? And I don't like how it looks. I don't like how any of the Land Rovers or Range Rovers look beside the Defender. Ok, the Evoke looks nice. But if I want a sports car I buy a sports car. And it is too small. Not much point, reason I always saw it as a poser. If I need a small, with space for nothing but capable off roader I buy a Niva.

But after much research it seems the Land Rovers are not as reliable as the Patrols and Land Cruisers and also did lots of research and found many, many stories of Patrols and Land Cruisers rescuing Land Rovers.

[J4x4K]

Howitzer said:

I drove the Patrol and Land Cruiser quite a bit in Dubai and Africa. For me I liked the looks of the Patrol but in all other areas the Land Cruiser was king.

This is the thing. You find people saying the Patrol is king and you find people saying the Land Cruiser is king. All opinions. I gathered that both are on pair and it's a toss. I've been checking a lot of Australian forums where the Patrol and Land Cruiser are kings and even Land Rover don't have as good of a reputation and you have equally enthusiastic fans of both Patrol and Land Cruiser and claiming each is the best. So I call it a toss up between the two. More interesting is the Australian's high opinion about both compared to Land Rovers, Jeeps and anything out there. It seems nobody knows the Patrols and Land Cruisers as they Australians. Maybe because they don't have the juvenile prejudice against Japanese trucks we have here, which now since Land Rover, Jaguar and other British car companies are all owned by Indian and Asian companies make even less sense.

Howitzer said:

Given my own money, id not get any of the three mind you but that's not a help to your question

Why? Because it's Japanese? There seems to be way more worse off roaders than better ones than the Patrol and LC. Actually by what I gathered there is none really better, only as good. But worse ones there are like a million...

[J4x4K]

By the way, another option that keeps popping up and is starting to look interesting because of how often it's brought up is the Isuzu Trooper and it's variants (Monterey etc). But then again it seems to be smaller like a Hilux. Does it have anything on the Patrol or Land Cruiser? It seems to be a bit cheaper too.

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

I'm also not a fan of Landrover products, modified Defenders have a certain appeal as pure off-roaders but the rest of the range not so much. It sounds to me like you need to find a manual 80 series Cruiser and a Patrol to test drive.

Whilst it's true they have no equal when it comes to dependability and in the most inhospitable places on earth they drive nothing else do you really need that? I seem to recall that your original requirements were for a family car also used for some occasional light off-roading. A full size Landcruiser or Patrol is spectacular overkill for that role, there are many smaller cheaper vehicles that would do the trick, cost less to run and be less cumbersome for day to day duties. I have a HDJ80 manual but I bought it for a trip to Iceland this summer where its capabilities will be required (it will probably be sold afterward), I wouldn't choose it as my only car for driving to the shops and back.

Well, it won't be the only car. We also have a station wagon which I'm sure we are keeping. But it will be the main car, specially every time we have the baby with us.

The Patrol seems to be a bit smaller than the Land Cruiser 80 and this is also another reason I'm gravitating towards the Patrol. But something smaller like a Pathfinder or the Isuzu Trooper starts losing that tank quality I'm also after. Also, I do need the reliability. Not only for off roading but for everyday driving. Don't want something that will breakdown often, like a Land Rover (sorry, couldn't resist).

So everything points to the Patrol Y61 being the perfect fit. Is the road driving on it that bad? I saw several video reviews and some say it is still rough and others say it's quite comfortable for a vehicle of it's size and some even say not much different from a family sedan apart from the high end ones.

Yes. weekend off roading, pay and play, camping and I'm also thinking of making that Iceland trip of yours. You have inspired me. But starting from behind the Alpes, where we live.

[J4x4K]

Efbe said:

am suprised by the vague steering comments on the XJ. It's probably the most car like proper 4x4 I have driven.
This may be to do with what tyres/lift you have on it, but I found the XJ excellent on the road.

for other options, never driven one offroad but how about a vitara or grand vitara. comes with a low box, cheap to buy, comparitively good on fuel.

The Suzukis are way too small, specially the Vitara. My original requisites require 4 doors and be like a tank.

[J4x4K]

SHutchinson said:

I can't help but thinking after reading the last thread and this one that you're going to end up buying a Citroen Xsara Picasso.

Not a chance. HATE minivans. Even that 4x4 one that was suggested I wouldn't touch with a 10 miles pole. Sorry.

I'm pretty set on the Patrol and actively looking for one. But can't find anything but 2.8s for sale.

[J4x4K]

GravelBen said:

General opinion among the serious off-roaders I know is that the Patrol has the stronger drivetrain (older LC's for sale often have rebuilt diffs) while the Landcruiser chassis will last a bit longer if you're giving them both nasty flexing etc.

Go for the 4.2td Patrol over the 3.0td, the ZD30 motor has some common and expensive problems.

Yeah, I think the Patrol is the right one for me over the LC. But I think I would be happy with either.

TurboHatchback said:

Is the 4.2td available in the OPs market (I though he was in central Europe somewhere)? I know the 4.2td was not offered in the UK though the ZD30 issues seem reportedly much less common here than in Australia, possibly due to the climate. If it is available then yes absolutely go for the 4.2td, otherwise I think the issues with the ZD30 are somewhat overstated, I've not heard of it being a major issue in the UK anyway.

Yep, I would love a 4.2 but can't find anything but 2.8s and some 3.0s. I found one 4.2 but the guy was asking like 30,000 for it.

Yes I'm in central Europe but I looked all over including the UK. 4.2 anywhere in Europe seems like a hard find!

[J4x4K]

TurboHatchback said:

J4x4K said:

The Patrol seems to be a bit smaller than the Land Cruiser 80 and this is also another reason I'm gravitating towards the Patrol.

It isn't, the 5 door Y61 is actually a bit longer than the 80 (though with vehicles this size it's rather splitting hairs). The Y61 does of course also come in three door form which is considerably shorter.

Really? I never saw them side by side but always had the impression the Y61 was smaller. Maybe I'm thinking compared to the next generation late 90's early 2000's LC.

The 3 door Patrol is not for me. I need 4 doors.

TurboHatchback said:

J4x4K said:

So everything points to the Patrol Y61 being the perfect fit. Is the road driving on it that bad? I saw several video reviews and some say it is still rough and others say it's quite comfortable for a vehicle of it's size and some even say not much different from a family sedan apart from the high end ones.

It depends on your point of reference really! Compared to a Defender it is streets ahead, compared to a performance car it is rubbish. I think for a large proper 4x4 they really aren't too bad, the negative reviews usually compare them with things like X5s which are a completely different type of vehicle. Ultimately a ladder chassis live axle 4x4 with excellent axle articulation, a high center of gravity, heavy wheels and off-road tyres and slow geared steering will never go, stop or turn as well as a normal car on tarmac but IMO the Patrol does an acceptable job.

They're certainly comfy though.

I'm sure the X5 handles better. That's not a real off road. It's a car with an excuse to look like an off road. Like the Audis and Mercedes (apart from the G-wagen of course).

But I'm not expecting the Patrol to handle like a sports car. Although I heard the dynamic vehicle control thing helps a lot. But I'm just hoping it is not a rough ride, with a too rough neck breaking suspension and too much of a truck ride experience. I know it won't turn like a BMW sedan or go like a Nissan 350Z or stop like a Porsch 911. Although I hope it won't be unsafe in the breaks.

Edited by J4x4K on Tuesday 19th May 14:43

[J4x4K]

GravelBen said:

The most serious ZD30 issue (melting pistons) is generally caused by a dodgy earth on the MAF sensor (according to a mate who is a very good diesel mechanic), so thats easily avoided. The fuel pumps still tend to give up around the 100k-120k mile mark and its an engine out job to replace them, so thats expensive but I guess no worse than well known problems with other vehicles.The most serious ZD30 issue (melting pistons) is generally caused by a dodgy earth on the MAF sensor (according to a mate who is a very good diesel mechanic),

Well, it seems in Europe and UK is either the 3.0 or 2.8. The 4.2 is nearly impossible to find.

So is the 3.0 at least better than the 2.8 or is it a toss?

GravelBen said:

so I haven't driven a Y61, but have driven quite a few Y60s in SWB and LWB form - I prefer them (on and off road) to the Prado, LC80 and Range Rovers that I've driven. You're aware that they're a big heavy vehicle, but they're quite well balanced and the controls have some good honest mechanical feedback.

So you found the Y60 better on the road than a Range Rover?

[J4x4K]

So I just came back from a Dealer who had a 2001 Y61 3.0 which I found online. Unfortunately it was already sold when I got there and the person will pick it up this afternoon. So I couldn't test drive it. But I looked at it and I have to say the dimensions are really misleading. Maybe because the round corners design. It barely looks much bigger than a Pathfinder or a Blazer if you don't have them side by side.

The interesting thing is that he had a 2001 Range Rover P38A he was trying to get me to buy since the Patrol is sold. I thought the Range Rovers would be more expensive than the Patrol, specially that it is the top of the Land Rover line. But even though it was the same year and had similar mileage it was 1,000 cheaper. Maybe the cult status of the Patrol helps or because it's imported and the RR is made in Europe, don't know. I just always thought the RR would cost more.

The Rage Rover looked great. Very good condition and the leather inside didn't have any tears. The Patrol's leather was a bit worn at places. The Range Rover is my favorite Land Rover after the Defender. Actually is the only other one I would even look at. I always hated the Discovery, the Freelander is a Golf and before I bought something like an Evoque I would buy a real sports car.

The Range Rover at least looks a bit tougher. But only the Classic, P38A and somewhat the L322. The L405 went overboard with the styling. Too fancy for something that is made to also go into muddy water, if it still is made for that.

But anyway, the Range Rover he had looked good and I would have test driven it if it wasn't an automatic. He said he never saw a manual one but according to Wikipedia they were made.

But I guess it is just not comparable to the Patrol. Inside it looks nicer. But off roading I would rather be in a Patrol.

But even the P38A is too slick for an off road. Every lifted Range Rover I've seen looks ridiculous. The RR Classic gets a pass. But P38A and L322 just look out of place with proper off road tires and higher suspension. It only looks good at the original lower height and with those "car like" tires. It's more of a station wagon looking car than an off road style. Since I want to lift whatever off road I end up buying the Range Rover is probably not it. It is also heavier, right? But the main problem that scares me is the unreliability.

I wonder if the build quality and reliability is really as bad as people say? While you hear that Patrols and LCs never break, all you hear is how often Land Rovers break. Even wiki says: "Low resale value after warranty and reliability issues are common complaints."

I guess that at least explains why the Range Rover was cheaper than the Patrol.

[J4x4K]

GravelBen said:

Definitely - but I've only driven one Rangie, a late 90s HSE V8. The interior was comfortable enough and it rumbled along nicely in a straight line, but it was like an ocean liner through the corners. Felt about a ton heavier than the Patrol, vague wooly steering and uninspiring brakes.

Didn't do any proper off-road driving with it to compare that aspect, just a few farm tracks.

Interesting. So it was already a P38A. It's good to know though that the Patrol doesn't feel like a boat. I think if you liked the Y60 better on the road than the Range Rover the Y61 probably does even better on the road as it is more refined than the Y60 in this aspect.

Any advice about the 2.8 vs 3.0 question? I have all but given up in finding a 4.2.

[J4x4K]

GravelBen said:

Was just editing my previous reply to mention that - I'd go for the 3.0 over the 2.8.

Ok thanks. It seems the problems with the 3.0 is associated with the Australian climate. So maybe there won't be a problem here in Europe?

GravelBen said:

J4x4K said:

So is the 3.0 at least better than the 2.8 or is it a toss?

The ZD30 is newer tech with a heap more grunt, the RD28 is ok once you get the revs up but lacks low down torque. Not sure how the 2.8 compares for reliability, they're not very popular here because there are plenty of 4.2s around. I guess the other option (if there are any around) is a petrol one converted to LPG.

Haven't seen any 4.8 for sale around here either. That's the petro right?

If you have plenty of 4.2s around I guess you are in Australia?

Edited by J4x4K on Wednesday 20th May 14:15

[J4x4K]

SHutchinson said:

Have you test-driven a car yet?

What's that supposed to mean? I sense some sarcasm.

Like I said I test drove a Defender, Discovery and Grand Cherokees so far. The only local Y61 Patrol I found for sale was already sold when I got to the dealer so I couldn't test drive it.

[J4x4K]

pcn1 said:

At the end of the day your not going to tick "every box" on your want list.
They all have pro's and con's.

The thing that will sway it, is are you really going to spend much time off road or will the fact be you'll be driving on the tarmac 99.9% of the time ?
In which case get the 4x4 with the "better" road manners and creature comforts!

What do you suggest? Keeping in mind it needs 4 doors, manual transmission, be built like a tank, be high and can be no truck, minivan, crossover or the like. It needs to be a SUV.

[J4x4K]

Efbe said:

J4x4K said:

pcn1 said:

At the end of the day your not going to tick "every box" on your want list.
They all have pro's and con's.

The thing that will sway it, is are you really going to spend much time off road or will the fact be you'll be driving on the tarmac 99.9% of the time ?
In which case get the 4x4 with the "better" road manners and creature comforts!

What do you suggest? Keeping in mind it needs 4 doors, manual transmission, be built like a tank, be high and can be no truck, minivan, crossover or the like. It needs to be a SUV.

so after all this, you don't actually want/require a 4x4??

oh man :/

Hmmm, did you read his reply? Is English your first language?

He said:

pcn1 said:

In which case get the 4x4 with the "better" road manners and creature comforts!

So when he says to get the 4x4 with the better road manners and I ask him to suggest one, I'm obviously asking him to suggest a 4x4. I don't have to list it as a prerequisite again as it's pretty obvious by the context and that he mentions 4x4 in his sentence. Simple English really. So it's a given it needs to be a 4x4. So, let me clarify for you one last time. This is the 4x4 forum, we have been talking about 4x4 from the beginning and he said to get a 4x4 with the best road manners and I asked him to suggest one. Capish? Entiendes? Verstanden? Comprenez? Capire? Where or how did you get I don't want a 4x4?