How do you get "into" off roading?
Discussion
So, I've been on a few experience days and really enjoyed off roading. I'm sure that, like most experience centres, it is a watered down version and there is much more fun to be had out in the wild.
Anyway, my brother-in-law is also game and we're considering buying something like a discovery between us (one that's already had lots of stuff done to it). They seem to be fairly widely available and start from £1,500. At this stage, we're really wanting to dip our toe in the water so I appreciate that we're going to be going for the lower end of the market.
With all this in mind, I guess I was wondering firstly what we should be looking for in terms of vehicle. We've concluded that we like the idea of a Land Rover, and there are plenty of Discos within budget. But there are a whole host of upgrades that they seem to have. I'm guessing that tyres are the first thing to get changed, but some have "vehicle lift kits", "Body Lift kits", winches, roll cages and so on. Basically, what's the minimum we need?
Secondly... where do we use it? In my head there are loads of off road centres about the place where you can just turn up and play. Is that true or have I made it up as a bit of googling only seems to reveal loads of experience centres. Also, how is best to navigate green lanes as I don't want to upset anyone but love the idea of driving across country! (We're centrally located in the Midlands by the way!)
Any and all advice gratefully received.
Cheers
JD
Anyway, my brother-in-law is also game and we're considering buying something like a discovery between us (one that's already had lots of stuff done to it). They seem to be fairly widely available and start from £1,500. At this stage, we're really wanting to dip our toe in the water so I appreciate that we're going to be going for the lower end of the market.
With all this in mind, I guess I was wondering firstly what we should be looking for in terms of vehicle. We've concluded that we like the idea of a Land Rover, and there are plenty of Discos within budget. But there are a whole host of upgrades that they seem to have. I'm guessing that tyres are the first thing to get changed, but some have "vehicle lift kits", "Body Lift kits", winches, roll cages and so on. Basically, what's the minimum we need?
Secondly... where do we use it? In my head there are loads of off road centres about the place where you can just turn up and play. Is that true or have I made it up as a bit of googling only seems to reveal loads of experience centres. Also, how is best to navigate green lanes as I don't want to upset anyone but love the idea of driving across country! (We're centrally located in the Midlands by the way!)
Any and all advice gratefully received.
Cheers
JD
Top tips, thanks for that!
Ironically having looked at several examples, it seems like it is cheaper to buy a (slightly battered) but read-to-go off road Disco than it is to buy a bog standard one... I guess that's because the bog standard ones for sale have been looked after well.
Just for clarity, are you saying that there are not many pay and play sites that are worth the money or that there just aren't any pay and play sites?!
JD
Ironically having looked at several examples, it seems like it is cheaper to buy a (slightly battered) but read-to-go off road Disco than it is to buy a bog standard one... I guess that's because the bog standard ones for sale have been looked after well.
Just for clarity, are you saying that there are not many pay and play sites that are worth the money or that there just aren't any pay and play sites?!
JD
OverSteery said:
TurboHatchback said:
That's actually a very good idea. My limited experience of taking large 4x4s (Landcruiser HDJ80s) to pay and play sites is that they are very capable but you'll constantly be bashing bits of them into the ground due to the rear overhang and long wheelbase. Also when you get a full size Landcruiser on proper tyres stuck it's really stuck and something of a challenge to pull out again.
If I was going to buy a vehicle just for playing off road I would either go for a Jimny (cheap, small, reliable and surprisingly awesome) or a defender 90 as their shape is much more suitable to the crazy ups, downs and crests that you'll be dealing with. Also having the most capable vehicle ever isn't always a good thing, there's a reason crap cars are often more fun than good ones, you can push them harder without scaring/endangering yourself as much.
There is wisdom in this. I can certainly confirm that the rear overhang of a disco 2 is a distinct liability and its a heavy brute to recover if you do get stuck.If I was going to buy a vehicle just for playing off road I would either go for a Jimny (cheap, small, reliable and surprisingly awesome) or a defender 90 as their shape is much more suitable to the crazy ups, downs and crests that you'll be dealing with. Also having the most capable vehicle ever isn't always a good thing, there's a reason crap cars are often more fun than good ones, you can push them harder without scaring/endangering yourself as much.
I defender 90 is much better - but have you seen the money they are going for these days
Are there any Lada Niva's still serviceable?
Thanks for the advice all!
P.S. Would love a defender... but they're a fortune!
TooMany2cvs said:
300bhp/ton said:
Any incident from using a KERR would likely have resulted the same with any other type of rope.
Yes, and no.If a normal rope is taken beyond the limit, and snaps, then it doesn't suddenly get rid of all the energy that a kinetic does. It'll go ping, quite probably dramatically, sure. But it won't do a damn good impression of a catapult.
What's worse is when it's not the rope that goes ping, but a shackle or whatever the shackle's attached to. Then you've got a REALLY dangerous situation, whereas a normal rope would just be a bit dodgy.
JD
plasticpig said:
Back on topic then. The recovery ropes thing does demonstrate one thing in that it's probably a very good idea to get some training. Some clubs do training days but there are also professional instructors.
Agreed - this is something we're going to do straight away... we figured that if we have our own vehicle then we can learn the quirks of it with an instructor / experience person sat next to us.And on that note I've had an idea. How about a PH "Pay and Play" Sunday Service?
300bhp/ton said:
TBH, there really is no right or wrong here, use pro's and con's and a lot of personal preference or bias.
In the UK....
as a rule manuals have always been preferred. Indeed apart from a special edition Defender, you have not been able to buy a traditional Land Rover with an automatic gearbox since 1948 through to the end of production this year. So there must have been a reason for this.
Off road a manual box arguably offers more control, they will normally have a lower crawl speed, have much better engine breaking on descents and more instant throttle response.
For much of what we do off road wise in the UK, they work very well.
And for things like trialling and competitions they have normally been the preferred choice.
In the USA things are different. And auto's tend to be favoured, partly because the vehicles they use are often found with auto boxes readily, but it also suits mud running, bogging and rock crawling well.
To give a bit more info on the subject.
An auto box has a torque converter, this means you'll need to apply a little more throttle than you would in a manual to get the vehicle to move, as this is how a torque converter works. So even with identical gearing, off road you'll find a manual will generally have a more predictable crawl speed, being that the clutch means that essentially the gearbox and engine are fixed together. So if you hit some rough ground or obstacles, manuals will tend to keep on moving, while an auto may stop because it isn't over coming the torque converter anymore. So you need to apply throttle on and off more so with an auto or drive a bit quicker to prevent it stopping.
Not a major issue, but does make for a different technique and feel.
A big difference with auto's is going down steep hills. For most automatic 4x4's the torque converter won't be locked, so when you go down hill it'll largely feel like it free wheels down without much in the way of engine braking. So downhill can be a bit scarier and faster, with sometimes less control. It means you have to use the foot brake a lot more, but that can induce skidding and of course you'll need good working brakes.
I have even seen some people in auto's go down very steep hills with the gearbox in reverse, but the vehicle going forward. The logic here is, you can then apply load and engine braking through the torque convertor, but it's all rather convoluted. Most people just end up going down the slopes faster.
Modern technology can overcome this. If you have a vehicle equipped with Hill Descent Control, then the vehicle will use the ABS to maintain the speed you want. Much more effective than using the brake pedal yourself and much less lockup and skidding.
Some newer vehicles like the Discovery 2 (and I assume newer LR's) are meant to lock the torque converter when in low range. Lock up means it should use a physical clutch plate and lock up a bit like a manual. This will give you similar engine braking to a manual in theory. However I think in practice it may not work quite as well as a manual does.
On the flip side, there is no clutch to ride or burn out with an auto. So of particularly technical off road sections, such as rock crawling, where you may have the vehicle balanced between going forwards and rolling backwards. An auto can be very useful. And will generally be easier to drive on such terrain.
The other big advantage with an auto is you don't have to lift to change gear. So if you find yourself in sudden need of massive amounts more wheel speed and don't want to have to stop, then an auto can shift from 1st to 2nd no problem. Handy in muddy conditions or even sand.
A manual will require you to dip the clutch and off road as soon as you do this it'll stop your momentum. So you have to be more selective with which gear you choose in a manual.
IMO - there really is no right or wrong choice. If you are learning and first time, I'd say opt for a manual if you have the choice. You'll probably have to work a bit harder, but you'll learn more doing so.
But don't dismiss auto's. My current p38 Range Rover and past Jeep Cherokee are auto's and I could easily be a convert on picking an auto off road.
Other things to consider are the rest of the package. Many auto's are only 4 speed and if you haven't got an engine with some grunt or poke, you may find them a little lack luster when out on the open road at normal road speeds. And despite how good an auto can be off road, sometimes a manual is just more fun.
Another great post, thank you!In the UK....
as a rule manuals have always been preferred. Indeed apart from a special edition Defender, you have not been able to buy a traditional Land Rover with an automatic gearbox since 1948 through to the end of production this year. So there must have been a reason for this.
Off road a manual box arguably offers more control, they will normally have a lower crawl speed, have much better engine breaking on descents and more instant throttle response.
For much of what we do off road wise in the UK, they work very well.
And for things like trialling and competitions they have normally been the preferred choice.
In the USA things are different. And auto's tend to be favoured, partly because the vehicles they use are often found with auto boxes readily, but it also suits mud running, bogging and rock crawling well.
To give a bit more info on the subject.
An auto box has a torque converter, this means you'll need to apply a little more throttle than you would in a manual to get the vehicle to move, as this is how a torque converter works. So even with identical gearing, off road you'll find a manual will generally have a more predictable crawl speed, being that the clutch means that essentially the gearbox and engine are fixed together. So if you hit some rough ground or obstacles, manuals will tend to keep on moving, while an auto may stop because it isn't over coming the torque converter anymore. So you need to apply throttle on and off more so with an auto or drive a bit quicker to prevent it stopping.
Not a major issue, but does make for a different technique and feel.
A big difference with auto's is going down steep hills. For most automatic 4x4's the torque converter won't be locked, so when you go down hill it'll largely feel like it free wheels down without much in the way of engine braking. So downhill can be a bit scarier and faster, with sometimes less control. It means you have to use the foot brake a lot more, but that can induce skidding and of course you'll need good working brakes.
I have even seen some people in auto's go down very steep hills with the gearbox in reverse, but the vehicle going forward. The logic here is, you can then apply load and engine braking through the torque convertor, but it's all rather convoluted. Most people just end up going down the slopes faster.
Modern technology can overcome this. If you have a vehicle equipped with Hill Descent Control, then the vehicle will use the ABS to maintain the speed you want. Much more effective than using the brake pedal yourself and much less lockup and skidding.
Some newer vehicles like the Discovery 2 (and I assume newer LR's) are meant to lock the torque converter when in low range. Lock up means it should use a physical clutch plate and lock up a bit like a manual. This will give you similar engine braking to a manual in theory. However I think in practice it may not work quite as well as a manual does.
On the flip side, there is no clutch to ride or burn out with an auto. So of particularly technical off road sections, such as rock crawling, where you may have the vehicle balanced between going forwards and rolling backwards. An auto can be very useful. And will generally be easier to drive on such terrain.
The other big advantage with an auto is you don't have to lift to change gear. So if you find yourself in sudden need of massive amounts more wheel speed and don't want to have to stop, then an auto can shift from 1st to 2nd no problem. Handy in muddy conditions or even sand.
A manual will require you to dip the clutch and off road as soon as you do this it'll stop your momentum. So you have to be more selective with which gear you choose in a manual.
IMO - there really is no right or wrong choice. If you are learning and first time, I'd say opt for a manual if you have the choice. You'll probably have to work a bit harder, but you'll learn more doing so.
But don't dismiss auto's. My current p38 Range Rover and past Jeep Cherokee are auto's and I could easily be a convert on picking an auto off road.
Other things to consider are the rest of the package. Many auto's are only 4 speed and if you haven't got an engine with some grunt or poke, you may find them a little lack luster when out on the open road at normal road speeds. And despite how good an auto can be off road, sometimes a manual is just more fun.
Nesty said:
Thanks for the comments on auto v manual - very thorough and interesting. So it sounds like a v8 manual discovery, with the front and rear bumpers removed and chunky tyres would be a good, relatively inexpensive and reliable / have plentiful spares place to start? Awesome!
I was thinking the same, although all this talk of Mitsubishi Shoguns / Pajeros is interesting!JD
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