"Modern Classics" 40 minute race series

[andy97]

The CSCC will run a race series in 2013 called "Modern Classics".
"Modern Classics" is a development of the German car only series "Deutsche Marque" which this series will replace.

"Modern Classics" will be for all makes of production saloon & hatchback (above 2 litres) and all production GT and sportscars in production up to 1 Jan 2000 of any engine capacity.

In addition to the German Marques previously raced in “Deutsche Marque”, the Series will welcome cars such as the Lotus Elise, Mazda MX5, Fiat Coupe, Subaru Impreza, Alfa Romeo V6, Ginetta G20, Vauxhall Vectra V6 and TVR to name but a few.

Some slightly later cars may be allowed at the discretion of the committee if deemed to be in the spirit of the series, such as the later Porsche Boxsters, forced induction BMW Minis and Fiat 500 Abarths.

The eligibility rules will follow normal CSCC practice and be simple to build to, and simple to police, to encourage wide participation.

Cars must:
Run their original production silhouette.
Run their original type of engine and gearbox.
Run their original type of induction.
Run on MSA List 1a or 1b tyres.

Cars may only run standard types of spoiler or splitter originally fitted to the production model. Limited motorsport edition spoilers, splitters and wheelarch extensions will not be allowed. There are no restrictions on engine internals, brakes, wheels, suspension etc as long as the above criteria are met, though cars must comply with current MSA safety regulations.

Races will run to the usual CSCC format one or two drivers, 40 minute pitstop races at all our 2013 meetings. There will also be the opportunity to race at Spa.

[andy97]

Carnage said:

I like the idea, bit like the old 750 MC Roadsports, but thinking about it a bit more - 3.0 litre, 250 bhp, 1250 kg Porsche 968 seems very likely to be up against 2.0 litre, 500 bhp, 1250 kg Imprezas if allowing the usual 1.7 equivalency factor. Not convinced.

The usual 1.7x equivelancy factor will apply for forced indiction cars but this means that 2 litre turbos will be considered equivelant to 3.4 litre. The class split has not been finalised yet but is likely to be at 3 litre or 3.2 litre meaning that a 968 will be in a different class (literally!).

The CSCC will apply time penalties to race winners, as it does in all its other series, to help try to even things out a bit over time.

Power to weight ratio splits are just not practical at this level, and at this cost, of club racing. Its also very easy to defeat (I could relate the true story of why 944 Turbos got banned from the Porsche Club series a few years ago but thats for a different thread!). CSCC will not go down this route, I'm afraid, it would mean having a mobile rolling road at each round and thats a cost that is just not justifiable.

Who is to say that 500 Bhp Imprezzas etc are going to be able to last 40 minutes!

At this level, the variability in performance between two drivers in the same car, and the length of time pit stops can take also adds to the unpredictability of the racing and, allied to the succes time penalties, no outcome is certain.

Give it a chance and give it a go!

[andy97]

djroadboy said:

Sounds good Andy. Any ideas on the calendar for next year yet and what's the entries fees for this series?

Cheers

Dan

Calendar won't be finalised for a while I'm afraid, probably published in early December, after our AGM. Entry fees vary depending on the circuit, and I'm not sure what they will be for next year but this year they varied between about £310 at Anglesey to £345 at the MSVR circuits, I think (can't remeber exactly but it was in that ball park), for 20-30 min practice (depending on timetable) and a 40 min race. Club membership is about £38 and registration fee for the car is about £98 (all figures approx becaue I don't have them to hand!)

Hope thats attractive?

Andy

Edited by andy97 on Sunday 14th October 20:39

Edited by andy97 on Sunday 14th October 20:40

[andy97]

Carnage said:

I've raced with CSCC before - in fact you kindly picked up my trophy for me - and they are a good bunch of people. I think I will have a go, either with the 968 or was talking to a mate this morning and we'll get his Griffith 500 out of the shed. In fact the Crossle 9S was built in the nineties and is over 2 litres...

However, it will be a bit suck it and see as I would be concerned that the post 1999 cut-off will blur and we will be racing E46 M3's and drift cars. Not for me.

I remember picking up the trophy for you - only one I've ever picked up!

The Crossle 9S is a fantastic car but not a production sports car, so not eligible for this series I'm afraid.

The eligibility is for pre 1 Jan year 2000 cars, however Deutsche Marque cars that competed in that series may have grandfather rights, subject to Committee approval, hence Porsche Boxster and BMW Minis being allowed.

The requirement for standard size and shape body shells and no non main stream production aero will be enforced.

There will be the usual CSCC time based success penalties for outright winners.

I hope that a Subaru or a Mitsubishi do take part, as they are definitely modern classics, but the heavier 4 wheel drive system and the need for reliability, along with the time penalties, will probably mean that they won't dominate.

Interestingly, CSCC allow forced induction cars in Future Classics and its never been an issue, even though they can have modern engine management systems to help protect them and give great power. 4WD cars such as the Skyline R32 are allowed in Future Classics, too, but we have never had one take part so who is to say the Subarus and Mitsubishi will join in with MC?

The club really hope that the Deutsche Marque folks who have raced with us for the last 2 years will stick with the new series to form the core of a great new series, augmented by a number of other cars originating from other countries and who may not be eligible for the CSCC's existing series to get really good grid sizes.

I am to be the co-ordinator, and I will do my best, but for sure, it's impossible to please everyone, it's impossible to have true equivalence between cars (and there is no pretence otherwise), there will be a class based system so that people can still have class awards to fight for (pick a 3 litre car you won't be in the same class a 2 litre turbo!) and mistakes may be made but the emphasis will be on getting as many people out racing regularly, and enjoyably, as possible with good driving standards. I am considering racing a Ginetta G20 in the series myself and whilst I am no great driver I do hope that over a 40 min race, there may be some good battles between lighter, more nimble cars and bigger more powerful ones!

Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 16th October 13:02

[andy97]

Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery etc.

[andy97]

Yes, but the 3.2S didn't arrive until year 2000, that's why that version is eligible with "grandfather rights" from "Deutsche Marque".

[andy97]

I am a HANS user and I understand the point, although I usually have help from someone.

I'll raise it and see what can be done. It's a difficult one.

[andy97]

The "Modern Classics" series regs are now available on the CSCC website sites. Any questions drop us a line.

[andy97]

I need to check for a definitive answer but if an E46 M3 raced in Deutsche Marques (and I think it did) then it will be allowed in Modern Classics. CSCC do want to retain the support and loyalty of its Deutsche Marques members.

[andy97]

E30 M3 are eligible for both Modern Classics and the existing Future Classics series - you could enter both races. I'll get back to you on the E46 next week, when I can check with the office.

[andy97]

Card said:

I do understand the worry about very powerful M3 E46's entering the series, but also there is the point of trying to make as many cars eligible as possible to make a great series.

That's the point about changing the Deutsche Marque series to Modern Classics - getting as many eligible cars out as possible.

E46 M3 should be allowed; one did run last year in Deutsche Marque with Giles Groombridge.

I do understand the concern about power levels and modern cars but rewarding the loyalty of our members is important to us and CSCC are very keen to retain the loyalty of those DM racers that raced with us previously, hence giving them "Grandfather rights".

Notwithstanding this, the Modern Classics series will largely concentrate on pre year 2000 cars but any of these could have high power depending on the size of ones wallet! That power has still got to be controlled and stopped, though, on tyres and brakes restricted by the need for standard size and shape bodyshells. There is also the success penalty for overall winners, which is retained throughout the season.

No series regs are perfect but i hope that this series will attract an eclectic mix of racers, including some smaller capacity, lighter cars such as Elises, Ginettas and MGFs that can maybe indulge in some giant killing!

As for the classes, they will be:

Upto 1600cc
1601-1800
1801-2500
2501-3200
3200+
4WD Turbo cars

Edited by andy97 on Monday 12th November 17:54

[andy97]

snowen250 said:

why was the no Kumho cars rule in place though? I never quite understood it.

Simon

Agreed, that's why it has been changed.

[andy97]

Not sure I understand the question! The class regs have been split deliberately to hopefully attract slightly different cars in MC to FC and it maybe that a Pre 1990 2499cc car will be better off in MC than FC as it would be in the 2 litre to 3 litre Class in FC. Hope that makes sense.

There's nothing to stop an FC car competing MC as well in the appropriate class.

The single driver staying in the car at pit stops has been asked before and the club have always said no, as it adds timing/ monitoring complications.

[andy97]

graemel said:

Thanks Andy. I guess the class structure is also designed to attract the 3.2 911 into modern classics. Surely if you have already got the were with all to police the 30 second class winning penalties and the 1 minute penalty for two cars in one race. Surely it would not be to difficult to police the single driver lone pit stop. Or maybe there are too many lone drivers racing

And the Boxsters and 1.8 VAG Turbo cars etc, whilst still hopefully attracting 3 litre cars.

The "success penalty" cars tend to come in one at a time and there are not that many of them. The timing can be done in one place. Lone drivers can stop anywhere up the pit lane and we don't know how many there will be.

[andy97]

CSCC Provisional dates for 2013 (As at 22nd November 2012) are:

January10th/13th - Autosport Show
February 22nd/24th - Race Retro Show

March 26th Snetterton – Test Day

April 13th/14th - Snetterton (300/200)
May 6th Brands - Hatch (Indy)
June 2nd - Anglesey (Coastal)
June 14th/15th/16th - Spa Franchorchamps
June 29th/30th - Cadwell Park (Full)
July 13th/14th - Castle Combe
August 3rd/4th - Pembrey
August 24th/25th - Donington Park (National)
September 21st - Oulton Park (International)
October 19th - Snetterton (200)

Where there are 2 day meetings it has still to be decided which series will run on which day

STOP PRESS - ALL Membership, Registrationa and Entry Fees held at 2012 leval for 2013

Edited by andy97 on Monday 3rd December 11:34

[andy97]

e46m3c said:

What are the entry fees? And remind me, is it 30 min qualy, then 40 min race with manditory drive change?

Any weekend where there is more than 1 race on the same day?

Club Membership is £39 per driver and series registration is £99 per car. Entry fees vary from £295 at Anglesey to £325 at Snetterton and £365 at Oulton Park, Brands Hatch & Donington Park. Fees will be the same in 2013 as they were in 2012.

30 mins qualifying (I think we say a minimum of 25 mins, in fact, but the aim is for 30 at most places and this will always be in the timetable so that its clear) and a 40 min race with a mandatory pit stop (single drivers are allowed but they must still stop and simulate a driver change by getting out of the car and then back in).

Qualification and races are all on the same day. Some cars, if they are eligible, can race in more than one series so for example a Porsche 944 can race in both "Future Classics" and "Modern Classics" races.

I think the plan is to possibly have a double header meeting at Pembrey in 2013 so that all series will get the opportunity to race on both days but this has still to be confirmed.

At some meetings we do have a 15 or 20 min Sports Vs Saloons single driver sprint race to close the day out if there is time in the timetable and all entrants on the day can race in this as well, but this doesn't happen at every meeting, it depends on what the planned content is. When this race is planned the entrance fee is usually very attractive to those that have already raced. Hope that helps.

[andy97]

I'll check and get back to you.

[andy97]

I think that the Eifelrennen clashes with Spa or is very close to it, hence the club had to make a decision and the Spa races are "ours" so take precedence. That said, if you contact the club office they may help facilitate an invite to the Eifelrennen if you are doing Spa as well.

[andy97]

djroadboy said:

If you enter more than one series in the same weekend is there a discount in entry fees for the second race?

Dan

Dan

The answer is yes we will give a £25 discount on the extra race(s) as long as the races that you are entering in the weekend are the CSCC races. (ie if you are racing in a guest series such as Bernie's Historic V8 Challenge then the discount doesn't apply). The days are irrelevant, it just at the same meeting.

Also you cannot do a Saloon v Sports car race with the discount on the already really cheap price we offer in a different car or if the car has a different driver to one that has competed already. Hope that's clear!

[andy97]

Registrations are coming in now and I'm looking forward to the new season. We have registrations from cars as varied as VW Golf and Audi TT to Ferrari 355 and BMW 130 at the moment. Any more for any more?

I'm still hoping to race myself, possibly in a Ginetta, but work is getting in the way of me actually finding a car at the moment!

Edited by andy97 on Saturday 9th February 13:32