Ma5da racing...getting a bit rough!!!!
Discussion
I watched the MX5 racing at Castle Combe this weekend. Great stuff for the spectators! It brings to mind the good old days of Honda CRX and Rover Tomcats......never let a race go by without a red flag or a safety car and at least two or three cars destroyed at every meeting! Basically a bunch of guys with more money than sense, knocking seven bells out of each other at over 100mph. Seriously.......this championship is not for the underfunded!!! The bill for accident damage must run into thousands for every car!
If you like watching cars crashing, don't miss it!!!
If you like watching cars crashing, don't miss it!!!
I was referring to the write-offs that were taken back to the paddock on a recovery truck after the second mazda race. Don't know if the drivers were hurt, but the cars weren't going to out on track again anytime soon.
I think you can run around at the back of the masda field with a home built special, but the guys at the front are spending mega-bucks on engine development. It started out as a budget series but now its so big it has turned into a cheque book championship. I think you are talking £30000+ a season if you want to win. I walked round the paddock...most of the cars come in articulated lorries with huge awnings and a team of mechanics.
The attitude to body damage seems to be its a minor expense compared to the other costs...so they don't care! Cheap club racing it is not!!!
I think you can run around at the back of the masda field with a home built special, but the guys at the front are spending mega-bucks on engine development. It started out as a budget series but now its so big it has turned into a cheque book championship. I think you are talking £30000+ a season if you want to win. I walked round the paddock...most of the cars come in articulated lorries with huge awnings and a team of mechanics.
The attitude to body damage seems to be its a minor expense compared to the other costs...so they don't care! Cheap club racing it is not!!!
My original point wasn't about cost. I guess as with any motor sport, with the MX5's you can spend as much or as little as you want to. My point is that it seems to be getting very rough with door handle banging and mid-corner nudges becoming the norm rather than the exception....but hey! If you want to go banger racing, you pay your money and take your chances...
ok...I am guessing to a certain extent...but based on the fact that this year the front runners are suddenly going a lot quicker and the rules have changed. (Available to download from the BRSCC web site)
New for 2010: Non standard pistons are permitted and no material or weight is specified, non-standard valves are permitted, valve seat angles are free, balancing of crank and con rods is now permitted. Fly wheel can have material removed.
None of that was allowed last year. Last year the best you could have was a well put together standard engine. Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.
At Castle Combe at the weekend, the majority of the field were doing the same lap times as last year. However, the front four or five cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker than previously.
Is my guess that some serious money has been spent unreasonable?
New for 2010: Non standard pistons are permitted and no material or weight is specified, non-standard valves are permitted, valve seat angles are free, balancing of crank and con rods is now permitted. Fly wheel can have material removed.
None of that was allowed last year. Last year the best you could have was a well put together standard engine. Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.
At Castle Combe at the weekend, the majority of the field were doing the same lap times as last year. However, the front four or five cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker than previously.
Is my guess that some serious money has been spent unreasonable?
Daz65 said:
bmwguy said:
ok...I am guessing to a certain extent...but based on the fact that this year the front runners are suddenly going a lot quicker and the rules have changed. (Available to download from the BRSCC web site)
New for 2010: Non standard pistons are permitted and no material or weight is specified, non-standard valves are permitted, valve seat angles are free, balancing of crank and con rods is now permitted. Fly wheel can have material removed.
None of that was allowed last year. Last year the best you could have was a well put together standard engine. Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.
At Castle Combe at the weekend, the majority of the field were doing the same lap times as last year. However, the front four or five cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker than previously.
Is my guess that some serious money has been spent unreasonable?
Sorry to disappoint you chap but there are no exotic materials. If you are going to quote the regs maybe you should quote in full rather than putting your own spin on it. New for 2010: Non standard pistons are permitted and no material or weight is specified, non-standard valves are permitted, valve seat angles are free, balancing of crank and con rods is now permitted. Fly wheel can have material removed.
None of that was allowed last year. Last year the best you could have was a well put together standard engine. Now you can use some pretty exotic race technologies.
At Castle Combe at the weekend, the majority of the field were doing the same lap times as last year. However, the front four or five cars were 2 seconds a lap quicker than previously.
Is my guess that some serious money has been spent unreasonable?
Piston supplier is free but must be to standard form and dimensions.
Localised drilling grinding of crank to regain balance following repair.
Valves as per pistons, must be to o.e dimension and form although 3 angle seat profile allowed.
Head skimming is free.
Flywheel is not allowed to be lightened, can only reface the clutch mating surface.
You should also note that no modification is allowed to the ecu whatsoever and this is policed rigorously either by swapping between competitors or at random using control ecu from the organisers.
The speed difference has always been there. The guys at the front are some very experienced racers and know how to get the best out of the car and more importantly themselves.
Ma5da racing is probably the cheapest "professional" club motorsport in the country at the moment, borne out by the large numbers of registered cars and competitors.
Daz65
Edited by Daz65 on Thursday 24th June 08:16
Yes, the guys at the front are good drivers and they know what they are doing with the cars, but the same guys were two seconds a lap slower last year! Something has happened.....
I thought the whole point of the MX5's was that it was supposed to be accessible club motorsport. Turning it into a "professional" series goes somewhat against that philosophy.
Don't get me wrong, the series looks hugely entertaining for participants and spectators alike but no one should kid themselves that its possible to win in the series without spending A LOT of money!
You mean the 2009 champion is a painter and decorator! The rule changes have happened in 2010!
The current 2010 championship leader could only manage seconds and thirds last year behind your painter and decorator. This year, after the rule changes, the TV coverage of Cadwell Park shows him driving from last place on the grid with a 10 second penalty, to second place by the end of the race. Has his driving really improved that much over the winter? That shouldn't be possible in evenly matched one make racing.
The rule changes have allowed some competitors with deep pockets to gain a huge (but perfectly legal) advantage.
The current 2010 championship leader could only manage seconds and thirds last year behind your painter and decorator. This year, after the rule changes, the TV coverage of Cadwell Park shows him driving from last place on the grid with a 10 second penalty, to second place by the end of the race. Has his driving really improved that much over the winter? That shouldn't be possible in evenly matched one make racing.
The rule changes have allowed some competitors with deep pockets to gain a huge (but perfectly legal) advantage.
So oversize pistons are not permitted? Valve seat angles (a crucial contributor to power in a race engine) are not free? Head skimming isn't free? Crank balancing hasn't been introduced? All these things are expensive in their own right but the costs of testing to get them right are prohibitive for the average club competitor.
I'm not saying that there aren't good drivers in the championship....just that in the 2010 Masdas you have to be a good driver and have a sizeable budget to win.
I'm not saying that there aren't good drivers in the championship....just that in the 2010 Masdas you have to be a good driver and have a sizeable budget to win.
Anyway...as I said on a previous post. I won't be getting involved.....not so much because of the rule changes. More because I don't want to spend all my time straightening body panels...which was the original point of the thread. No one can deny that the Castle Combe meeting was rough....there are enough videos posted on Youtube to demonstrate the point.
If you download the 2010 regulations from the BRSCC web site ( http://www.brscc.co.uk/ma5da.html ) you can see that the engine regs have been heavily altered for 2010. The yellow highlighting indicates wording that has been added or altered.
In 2009 the regulations read as follows.
5.7 Engine
5.7.1 Permitted modifications
Head skimming is free
Cam cover may be altered so as to expose the cam wheels and belt
The plastic cam belt covers may be removed.
5.7.2 Prohibited modifications
Lighten or balance the flywheel
Balance the crankshaft
Use a non standard or high lift cam
Use of a non standard exhaust manifold
use vernier cam pulley wheels
Use non standard aftermarket replacement pistons
Undertake any porting or polishing of inlet or outlets of cylinder heads
Inlet and exhaust valves to remain as manufacturers standard.
ok...typing fingers aching now...but you have to agree the rule changes for 2010 are fairly fundamental.
In 2009 the regulations read as follows.
5.7 Engine
5.7.1 Permitted modifications
Head skimming is free
Cam cover may be altered so as to expose the cam wheels and belt
The plastic cam belt covers may be removed.
5.7.2 Prohibited modifications
Lighten or balance the flywheel
Balance the crankshaft
Use a non standard or high lift cam
Use of a non standard exhaust manifold
use vernier cam pulley wheels
Use non standard aftermarket replacement pistons
Undertake any porting or polishing of inlet or outlets of cylinder heads
Inlet and exhaust valves to remain as manufacturers standard.
ok...typing fingers aching now...but you have to agree the rule changes for 2010 are fairly fundamental.
I agree you can build a car for £5500 that will get within sight of the podium in the hands of a good driver, but winning will mean taking full advantage of the new engine regs plus a lot of testing. Testing costs £300 a day if you combine it with the race weekend and £500 a day if you do it away from race weekends. The engine mods will cost more (£800 for a set of OEM oversize pistons + rebore + head skimming + valve seat cutting + gasket sets + consumables ) ...say £5000 for a fresh engine from a reputable engine builder?
That's starting to look like the thick end of £15000 to be in a position to win and then you still have to pay race entries and the costs of being at meeting ( ...it costs £100 in fuel just to drag the car to a meeting on a trailer!!! Probably another six grand for the season?
There is no cheap motor racing, but the MX5's are no where near being the cheapest.
That's starting to look like the thick end of £15000 to be in a position to win and then you still have to pay race entries and the costs of being at meeting ( ...it costs £100 in fuel just to drag the car to a meeting on a trailer!!! Probably another six grand for the season?
There is no cheap motor racing, but the MX5's are no where near being the cheapest.
You can disagree as much as you want but I think oversize pistons, carefully cut valve seats and balanced moving components will make a difference to any race engine...otherwise Minister and the like are pulling the wool over a lot of peoples' eyes.
Also, if you can afford to buy half a dozen scrap engines to choose the best parts from each, you aren't exactly the normal budget club competitor!
Also, if you can afford to buy half a dozen scrap engines to choose the best parts from each, you aren't exactly the normal budget club competitor!
Ok...I agree there is an argument to be had about the relative abilities of different drivers,and I am not qualified to make any judgements. I still believe that the rule changes introduced for 2010 have allowed some drivers to use the size of their wallet to compensate for their lack of skill. It's a shame, because one make racing should be about everyone having equal equipment.
Are you seriously suggesting that increasing the size of the pistons does not affect the power output?
or...are you saying that people used oversize pistons in 2009 even though it wasn't permitted by the regs? Both the 2009 and this years regs say that cars have to be "standard". Oversize pistons are clearly not standard so should not have been used prior to this year when they were specifically permitted.
This gets worse by the minute!! Were the organisers turning a blind eye to breaches of the regulations when it suited them?
or...are you saying that people used oversize pistons in 2009 even though it wasn't permitted by the regs? Both the 2009 and this years regs say that cars have to be "standard". Oversize pistons are clearly not standard so should not have been used prior to this year when they were specifically permitted.
This gets worse by the minute!! Were the organisers turning a blind eye to breaches of the regulations when it suited them?
Edited by bmwguy on Sunday 27th June 03:06
So the Masda championship regulations can only be understood if they are read in conjunction with a (hidden!!!) part of the Ma5da web site?
The regulations of a championship should be the only thing governing the technical and sporting aspects of the way a championship is run. That's what the MSA requires and is what anyone competing in or considering competing in a championship is entitled to expect. It is amazing to discover that there are other rules and interpretations which don't appear in the regulations of a championship! It is absolutely astonishing that this is the case in one of the largest and most popular one make championships in the UK!
These really are some of the sloppiest, most loosely worded regulations I have ever seen. Maybe the championship organisers, the BRSCC and the MSA (as they approved them), should get their act together and produce a properly drafted, definitive set of regulations which will clearly state what is, and what is not allowed to be done to the cars.
The regulations of a championship should be the only thing governing the technical and sporting aspects of the way a championship is run. That's what the MSA requires and is what anyone competing in or considering competing in a championship is entitled to expect. It is amazing to discover that there are other rules and interpretations which don't appear in the regulations of a championship! It is absolutely astonishing that this is the case in one of the largest and most popular one make championships in the UK!
These really are some of the sloppiest, most loosely worded regulations I have ever seen. Maybe the championship organisers, the BRSCC and the MSA (as they approved them), should get their act together and produce a properly drafted, definitive set of regulations which will clearly state what is, and what is not allowed to be done to the cars.
Edited by bmwguy on Tuesday 29th June 00:51
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