Dreaming of S85 power
Discussion
Still hashing out my ideas/plans/dreams for a GTR build soon.
I will be selling my E60 M5 to strengthen my case with the wife that I need to build this car, but I will really miss the sound of a decatted V-10.
I visited Autobionic's page and looked into their build. The S85, DME, CAN bus, etc don't scare me as I've built a couple of CAN modules for my M5 (exhaust cutout controller) already. However, as nifty as would be to machine my own gearbox casing...I would like to drive the car within the next 10 years.
So, aside from all the hassle of getting a the big V-10 situated properly in the chassis, what do you all think the possibilities are of mating the block to the G50?
I will be selling my E60 M5 to strengthen my case with the wife that I need to build this car, but I will really miss the sound of a decatted V-10.
I visited Autobionic's page and looked into their build. The S85, DME, CAN bus, etc don't scare me as I've built a couple of CAN modules for my M5 (exhaust cutout controller) already. However, as nifty as would be to machine my own gearbox casing...I would like to drive the car within the next 10 years.
So, aside from all the hassle of getting a the big V-10 situated properly in the chassis, what do you all think the possibilities are of mating the block to the G50?
I know BMW chose 7 speeds for a reason. Having driven the M5 for a while, it really needs them all for smooth power delivery. However, I have access to several blocks and I'm very familiar with the engine, more so than any other.
Once the rod bearing issues, VANOS high pressure pump issues, and connecting rod side clearances are sorted out and the engine is given a proper oil (not the TWS crap BMW specs), they are really an impressive engine. Once outside the constraints of the E60 engine bay, a proper supercharger can be fitted along with a proper fuel delivery system.
There is so much interaction between the SMG computer and the MSS65 DME however, that it would be an order of magnitude more complcated to try and pair the SMG with a standalone Engine ECU. The reverse is easier however as the the M5/M6 were offered in a 6MT configuration.
The more I look at AB's V10, it almost seems like it would have been easier to machine an entire custom transmission housing rather than cut/weld/etc the Porsche and BMW housings together.
Once the rod bearing issues, VANOS high pressure pump issues, and connecting rod side clearances are sorted out and the engine is given a proper oil (not the TWS crap BMW specs), they are really an impressive engine. Once outside the constraints of the E60 engine bay, a proper supercharger can be fitted along with a proper fuel delivery system.
There is so much interaction between the SMG computer and the MSS65 DME however, that it would be an order of magnitude more complcated to try and pair the SMG with a standalone Engine ECU. The reverse is easier however as the the M5/M6 were offered in a 6MT configuration.
The more I look at AB's V10, it almost seems like it would have been easier to machine an entire custom transmission housing rather than cut/weld/etc the Porsche and BMW housings together.
andygtt said:
Ive decided to take my M5 off the road to use the engine in my car because I love the engine so much... I was twin turboing the older V12 but after having the M5 I decided the V10 is a way better option.... fact that it revs to well over 8000rpm and with a silencer delete its up there with the best sounding cars I have heard.
Are you located in UK?
Andy,Are you located in UK?
Just make sure you change the rod bearing while it's out...
Plenty of horror stories on M5board about blown engines with thrown rods, spun bearings,etc. BMW just changed the specified oils for all cars including M cars to thinner oils as the TWS 10W-60 is too thick for the extremely tight rod bearing clearances BMW chose on the S65 V-8 and the S85 V-10.
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Owner/Synth...
The reason this all became a concern is well documented here as the part numbers and clearances are the same as the S85:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8928...
This caused a few M5board guys to start changing the rod bearings preventively and what came out didn't look good:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...
Amazing engine and I love driving mine, but a little needy at times. I switched to Mobil1 0W-40 and sleep better.
andygtt said:
will definatelly be replacing the big end bearings as had that on the radar before I took the car off the road 
the SMG pump on the box went in mine, got a replacement but thing i'm going to not bother fixing it and just steal the engine
SMG is my specialty, what specifically failed? Just the pump motor or the whole hydraulic unit? I have a nice bin of spare parts for mine if it ever goes. So far, so good, 72k original clutch, shifts smooth as butter since I calibrate it routinely. Biggest failing on BMW AG's part was not doing that as a yearly preventive item.the SMG pump on the box went in mine, got a replacement but thing i'm going to not bother fixing it and just steal the engine
andygtt said:
I managed to a new entire hydraulic unit with low mileage pump... Will prob need a clutch while I'm there as it has done 110k on original. Shifted smooth as silk and failed just cruising at 80mph without any changes... Blew the fuse and pump apparently smelt bad.
Thing is its a fab car in great condition and spec... If I fix it I won't won't to remove the engine to use in my project so I'm loath to fix lol... Even in fantastic condition it's only worth 11k here in uk
You may be able to just pick up the pump motor and replace that. What year, late '05 to early '06? There was a SIB which recalled the motors due to a defect in the brush material. Yours may have just let go finally. Motor is about $350 or so and is easily replaceable and I think can be done without dropping the transmission. The entire hydro unit...not so much. There's a company in the US (bimmerzone) which offers the clutch and flywheel for $1500. Also, a huge improvement just hit the street within the last month: there's a revised clutch release bearing which has a delrin inner. Check out the pics here:Thing is its a fab car in great condition and spec... If I fix it I won't won't to remove the engine to use in my project so I'm loath to fix lol... Even in fantastic condition it's only worth 11k here in uk
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...
This is a huge improvement and should solve the problems of sticky/galling release bearings and clutch judder that has plagued many of these cars. If you ever get a 4FA0 code stored in the SMG module, this is the cause.
I'm not saying don't stuff an S85 in an Ultima, but don't abandon a great beast in the process.
cooberpedy said:
hi,
managed to install the engine as far forward as possible.
The driveshafts point back a little by approx. 1.5deg, which is far less than the maximum safe angle of approx 5deg. Should be fine with that....
cooberpedy,managed to install the engine as far forward as possible.
The driveshafts point back a little by approx. 1.5deg, which is far less than the maximum safe angle of approx 5deg. Should be fine with that....
I would really like to know more about your build. What ECU are you using? I was recommended the Pectel SQ6.
I had an injector stick open last week and hydro-lock the engine on cylinder 8. When I get it all put back together, I may just start down this journey and sell the M5.
I am thinking of a supercharger similar to ESS Tuning's new VT3 arrangement. That's worth about 650 WHP in the M5 and should do nicely. Obviously no point in getting any of it from ESS, probably the only usable thing would be the blower and it's mounting bracket and that's debatable.
s62 said:
More affordable standalone: http://www.twinkam.co.uk/shop/article_SC232/SC-Tor...
I saw that, but I'm confused. It says the Tornado 2 has 6 injector outputs.I think I remember your RNGTOY from M5 board. Very impressive!
cooberpedy said:
Indeed, confusing...
The number of injector-outputs is not much of a problem, you can always wire two in parallel.
The bigger problem is the nubmer of ignition-channels, in this case, 10 are required.
I suppose, they have some configurable pins doing ignition, to have 10 in total to feed the ign-amplifiers.
I have chosen the DTA S100 as this ECU has sufficient number of channels for ignition.
In the video, the engine is convertet to alpha-n. They say, that they are using the oem CAN idle valves. This is something that doesn't work! Running on alpha-n does not allow for any idle control using bypass valves.
Did you already contact them? Would be interesting to hear, how they manage to control the g-force controled oil-pumps :-) and the ion-sensing ignition :-) ha...
cheers
Cornel
I'm not sure I follow on the idle actuators...with the MSS_65 DME, the idle actuators are used under all throttle conditions and on torque demand are fully opened before cracking open the throttle actuators. My car is alpha-N on the stock DME (Evolve tune) and still functions this way.The number of injector-outputs is not much of a problem, you can always wire two in parallel.
The bigger problem is the nubmer of ignition-channels, in this case, 10 are required.
I suppose, they have some configurable pins doing ignition, to have 10 in total to feed the ign-amplifiers.
I have chosen the DTA S100 as this ECU has sufficient number of channels for ignition.
In the video, the engine is convertet to alpha-n. They say, that they are using the oem CAN idle valves. This is something that doesn't work! Running on alpha-n does not allow for any idle control using bypass valves.
Did you already contact them? Would be interesting to hear, how they manage to control the g-force controled oil-pumps :-) and the ion-sensing ignition :-) ha...
cheers
Cornel
I have mapped and decoded most of the CAN Arbitration IDs and messages for the E60, I halfway thought about making a small microcontroller to simulate all the needed CAN messages and eliminate several of the modules and retain the stock DME. Not east by any means, but far cheaper.
cooberpedy said:
Good point, any idea, how they do it? The prase alpha-n says, that the tps readings (angle alpha)are used as load, and they are mapped against rpm (n). So if you add extra air to the engine via the idle valves, the ecu won't see it and cannot adjust fueling properly. A mix of control strategy, perhaps?
I'm not 100%, but I think the programming of the DME has throttle opening mapped as a percentage driven by torque demand (pedal %) and RPM. Then, that throttle position is translated as a percentage opening of the Idle Actuator (from 0-100%) to Total opening (like 10%...guessing here) and then adds the Throttle actuator on top of that, so 0-100% throttle actuator starts from 10% (again, guessing here) to 100% total opening. That really makes a lot more sense in my head than it does in words...cooberpedy said:
As you have already done that, is there any chance you are willing to share your measurements, to speed things up a little?
Cheers
Cornel
Certainly! Here's the thread I started on it:Cheers
Cornel
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...
I haven't verified it 100%, but I logged about 25 minutes of data one day and voice logged everything along the way. Then I dumped it from the SD card logger into Excel and went from there. Haven't had a chance to work on it much lately, but got a huge boost from another thread:
http://www.loopybunny.co.uk/CarPC/k_can.html
It seems the E84 and the E60 share almost identical CAN ArbIDs. I haven't cross-reference them all, but all the ArbIDs listed that I have looked at individually match events that were in the voice log. The former thread shows the speed calculation as well.
Good luck, will be following along.
e21jason said:
There are a couple of conversions on the e30zone with s85 engines, they have had the stock ecu modified to run in stand alone mode without the additional canbus inputs. Might be cheaper than an aftermarket ecu
Somehow I missed this post, but I just registered and I'm interested to know more how they did it.There's a thread on M5board about the MSS-65 that may eventually lead to something useful.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-tou...
I'm still kicking the idea around in my head. She Who Will Not Be Ignored won't let me have 2 toy cars, so the M5 has to go first. It's going to be really hard to gather data and tinker if the car's gone, but I have to start somewhere.
M5 is officially up for sale and the wife has a huge renovation list I have to get through before I can "play".
However, I still need to occupy my brain-space with something, so here are a few questions.
- Regarding the Ultima chassis mods necessary for the S85 to fit, would these be less necessary (perhaps not at all?) if the engine was converted to a true dry sump? How far down do the frame pieces have to be moved in order fit the engine with the (tall) stock oil pan?
- Dry sump conversions don't seem to be abundant for the S85. VAC Motorsports in the US offers a pan only and KMS racing has a kit, but how do these operate in conjunction with the high pressure VANOS pump? Without that in the sump, can the pan be made even shallower? It seems to me that the entire VANOS system on the engine operates in more of a high pressure, low flow state as opposed to a large fluid mass flow rate. Perhaps an alternative could be using an external electrically operated hydraulic pump to raise pressure to the HP VANOS requirement, yet still operate on an oil feed from the engine's oil pump. This would eliminate to the electric oil pumps on the side of the oil pan as well, getting some of the weight penalty back.
- Regarding engine management, AEM has introduced the Infinty standalone ECU a couple of years ago and have a 10 cylinder version. Anyone seen an S85 running this yet?
- For standalone ECUs, has anyone maintained the ionic current modules for misfire detection or have all gone back to the old (reliable) knock sensor somewhere?
However, I still need to occupy my brain-space with something, so here are a few questions.
- Regarding the Ultima chassis mods necessary for the S85 to fit, would these be less necessary (perhaps not at all?) if the engine was converted to a true dry sump? How far down do the frame pieces have to be moved in order fit the engine with the (tall) stock oil pan?
- Dry sump conversions don't seem to be abundant for the S85. VAC Motorsports in the US offers a pan only and KMS racing has a kit, but how do these operate in conjunction with the high pressure VANOS pump? Without that in the sump, can the pan be made even shallower? It seems to me that the entire VANOS system on the engine operates in more of a high pressure, low flow state as opposed to a large fluid mass flow rate. Perhaps an alternative could be using an external electrically operated hydraulic pump to raise pressure to the HP VANOS requirement, yet still operate on an oil feed from the engine's oil pump. This would eliminate to the electric oil pumps on the side of the oil pan as well, getting some of the weight penalty back.
- Regarding engine management, AEM has introduced the Infinty standalone ECU a couple of years ago and have a 10 cylinder version. Anyone seen an S85 running this yet?
- For standalone ECUs, has anyone maintained the ionic current modules for misfire detection or have all gone back to the old (reliable) knock sensor somewhere?
Been away a bit, but as the house projects lumber on, my brain keeps ticking on this.
Picked up an S85 with spun bearing, looking forward to rebuilding that soon.
I have looked quite a lot at the VANOS system lately and have disassembled a few VANOS solenoids (I have a donated bag of 50 or so from Troy Jeup here in the states) and have a spare VANOS pump I've taken apart as well. The system only demands flow when the solenoids are positioned to remove the advance of the timing (forward motion in an E60). The VANOS pump maintains the system pressure, but the fluid demand is supplied by the accumulator which is kept charged by the pump.
I've emailed KMS about their dry sump and it turns out the pan and pump are manufactured by Dailey Engineering here in the US. I emailed them directly a bit and their dry sump is available in two versions, one which retains the VANOS pump and VANOS system and one which does not. The image shown on the KMS website is of the "with" version, explaining the small rectangular box on the bottom to allow for the lower half of the VANOS pump. I assume the VANOS pump is fed by a line from the external oil pump, but not certain.
Either way, it obviously won't avoid the chassis mods (thanks to AutoBionics for setting me straight on that one via email), but could perhaps allow lower mounting of the engine in the chassis depending on the chosen gearbox.
As for max output of an S85, have a look at the Dinan S85 Riley track car videos on YouTube for what a built engine can do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx1532Yzsbk
There is also a VS Motor S85 for a top fuel dragster that seems fairly potent as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myrep2aIgbw
I think my initial plan will be a stock, NA motor to get a feel for the car and build, and perhaps a twin turbo low compression version later. I've talked with Neel Vasavada of ApexSpeed Tech here in the US and he's done a number of S85s using both Pectel and Motec ECUs. I think I've set my mind on a Motec M150 or M190 and downloaded the software used to program and tune them it's extremely impressive.
Cornel, I think my first move however will be to remove the control boards inside the throttle actuators and drive the motors directly from full bridge outputs from the ECU. I've had my share of S85 actuator failures and with donations from other M5board members, have about 15 dead actuators to choose from for parts. I will admit that although I was fully convinced the failures were mechanical with worn gear teeth, there's a chap in the UK named Ian who has made a bang-up set of replacement gears for them. I installed a set in my most recent failed actuator and it still produced faults. I switched the electronics boards to my good actuator and the fault followed the board, so apparently the electronics either cause the gear damage or become damaged by it. Either way, I have no intention on carrying that over to a transplant engine to chase errors. I'm dumping those control boards to simplify the throttle control.
Public request for someone who speaks German well: What does this mean? "verzögertes und verschliffenes wi" I know "wi" is an abbreviation for indicated torque, and "verzögertes" means delayed or averaged, but what is "verschliffenes" in this context? Google translate only gets you so far...
As for the gearbox, there is a newly available version of the Graziano 6 speed used in the Gallardo and R8 which has a removable/reconfigurable bell housing that looks ideal. These are available brand new in the US from RCR (hope that's not blasphemous here) for $10k. It's pricy, but brand new and simple and on the closest side of an ocean to me.
And finally, an admission. I've been stalking the Superlite SL-C lately and I really, really like it. I am a good ways out to making a decision on the car yet, but really need to ride in one to compare to Ultima. I have an Ultima that lives literally 1/2 mile from me, but haven't seen the SL-C in the flesh yet.
Either way, it'll be an S85.
Picked up an S85 with spun bearing, looking forward to rebuilding that soon.
I have looked quite a lot at the VANOS system lately and have disassembled a few VANOS solenoids (I have a donated bag of 50 or so from Troy Jeup here in the states) and have a spare VANOS pump I've taken apart as well. The system only demands flow when the solenoids are positioned to remove the advance of the timing (forward motion in an E60). The VANOS pump maintains the system pressure, but the fluid demand is supplied by the accumulator which is kept charged by the pump.
I've emailed KMS about their dry sump and it turns out the pan and pump are manufactured by Dailey Engineering here in the US. I emailed them directly a bit and their dry sump is available in two versions, one which retains the VANOS pump and VANOS system and one which does not. The image shown on the KMS website is of the "with" version, explaining the small rectangular box on the bottom to allow for the lower half of the VANOS pump. I assume the VANOS pump is fed by a line from the external oil pump, but not certain.
Either way, it obviously won't avoid the chassis mods (thanks to AutoBionics for setting me straight on that one via email), but could perhaps allow lower mounting of the engine in the chassis depending on the chosen gearbox.
As for max output of an S85, have a look at the Dinan S85 Riley track car videos on YouTube for what a built engine can do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx1532Yzsbk
There is also a VS Motor S85 for a top fuel dragster that seems fairly potent as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myrep2aIgbw
I think my initial plan will be a stock, NA motor to get a feel for the car and build, and perhaps a twin turbo low compression version later. I've talked with Neel Vasavada of ApexSpeed Tech here in the US and he's done a number of S85s using both Pectel and Motec ECUs. I think I've set my mind on a Motec M150 or M190 and downloaded the software used to program and tune them it's extremely impressive.
Cornel, I think my first move however will be to remove the control boards inside the throttle actuators and drive the motors directly from full bridge outputs from the ECU. I've had my share of S85 actuator failures and with donations from other M5board members, have about 15 dead actuators to choose from for parts. I will admit that although I was fully convinced the failures were mechanical with worn gear teeth, there's a chap in the UK named Ian who has made a bang-up set of replacement gears for them. I installed a set in my most recent failed actuator and it still produced faults. I switched the electronics boards to my good actuator and the fault followed the board, so apparently the electronics either cause the gear damage or become damaged by it. Either way, I have no intention on carrying that over to a transplant engine to chase errors. I'm dumping those control boards to simplify the throttle control.
Public request for someone who speaks German well: What does this mean? "verzögertes und verschliffenes wi" I know "wi" is an abbreviation for indicated torque, and "verzögertes" means delayed or averaged, but what is "verschliffenes" in this context? Google translate only gets you so far...
As for the gearbox, there is a newly available version of the Graziano 6 speed used in the Gallardo and R8 which has a removable/reconfigurable bell housing that looks ideal. These are available brand new in the US from RCR (hope that's not blasphemous here) for $10k. It's pricy, but brand new and simple and on the closest side of an ocean to me.
And finally, an admission. I've been stalking the Superlite SL-C lately and I really, really like it. I am a good ways out to making a decision on the car yet, but really need to ride in one to compare to Ultima. I have an Ultima that lives literally 1/2 mile from me, but haven't seen the SL-C in the flesh yet.
Either way, it'll be an S85.
chuntington101 said:
Is the Graziano 6 speed available in 4WD and RWD versions? could make for an alternative box for kit car builders.
It appears to be in this PDF at least for RWD. I'm not sure on the AWD variant, but one would think so since the R8 has an AWD version.http://sakerracing.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/gra...
Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff