Do you still believe in good hi-fi?

[passionforsound]

I'm a big believer in good sound, that if you enjoy music, you’ll enjoy it more if it sounds great. I was raised on good hi-fi (and suspect many others on here were too) and we feel so strongly about it, we've written a "Hi-Fi Manifesto" that puts forth our views on what makes a good hi-fi system...



We toiled long and hard over this before finishing it. Do you agree with the points above? What would you edit/change?

[passionforsound]

alock said:

Its missing the most important part which is the room. A carpet in your lounge trumps a trendy wooden floor.

Really good point that - we missed adding in anything about the effects of the room or room treatment - that's why we made it available online to edit though after all!

[passionforsound]

Bradgate said:

That sounds like something written by the marketing department of a hi-fi dealer!

Not really - see point 10*

Bradgate said:

If you can actually hear the difference, expensive kit is money well spent. If you can't really hear a noticeable difference, you're wasting your money.

• Agreed - again see point 10 - if you can't hear a difference there's no point and as we all hear things differently, its only worth it if you can hear the difference yourself. We can't argue with that :-)

[passionforsound]

Mouse1903 said:

I'm not a fan of iPod docks and sound bars, they just aren't the same quality as a proper stereo or separates set-up. I'd love an expensive separates set-up, but can't afford it, so I did the next best thing and bought vintage

Not the best pic:

Nice set-up that. Pioneer SA-7800 or SA-8800 if I'm not mistaken (even rarer than the SA-9800 now!)

[passionforsound]

mikees said:

Dug out the old arcam and B&W set up to ebay today. It blows my Sonos into the weeds. Gonna keep it and use it (circa 300 CDs ) . Amazing that I forgot.

Glad the manifesto may have helped slightly in your desire to listen to the kit before eBaying it and keep it rather than sell it. If the manifesto can bring a bit more good sound to the world, then it'll do us proud!

[passionforsound]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Haha yeah, I think this is pretty spot-on, more or less.

Been a music lover since my early teens. Been in a load of different bands over the years too.


Back in 1997, I had managed to achieve a decent position in my company paying decent wages. I decided it was about time I bought myself a system to be proud of.

I went to a local audio dealer. Yes I could have wasted their time and then gone and bought the stuff online etc. etc. - but after they spent an entire afternoon with me sitting in their sound booth, bringing in different separates and speakers for me to listen to, I didn't have the heart, and besides, I wanted the aftersales back-up. Which, I might add, they still provide to me today, nearly 20 years later, because my spend helped to ensure their survival.

The chap who spent all that time with me that day is still working in the shop, and still recognises me when I occasionally visit. And when I do nothing is too much trouble. One of the things I really liked is that after buying all the gear, he insisted on coming round to my house that evening to deliver it all, unpack everything, and place and setup the system and then fiddle around with it until I was happy. Great service!

Problem for him is, however, that he sold me such decent gear at the time, that none of it has gone wrong, and I have never felt the need to upgrade, lol!

Anyway I bought Arcam Alpha separates - an Alpha 8 CD player, and two Alpha 8 amps, which provide a bi-wiring system supplying my KEF Q35 floor-standing speakers. With finally an Alpha radio source.

Having moved house a few times, this gear can be tuned by fiddling about with the bases for the speakers (sometimes into carpet via the spikes - sometimes having to sit on outdoor paving slabs etc.) but I've always managed to get a great result in any house.

I spent the requisite 10% on interconnects - Chord Cobra RCA's with silver OFC speaker cable. I've not tried anything different, I'll admit - but if longevity is a benchmark for the cables, then 17 years' of perfect service without a failure is possibly a good measure at least!

So yeah - I bought into 'good hifi' back then, and the total spend was in the region of £2,500. A drop in the ocean compared to what some spend....but for me, a considerable investment - but one which still brings me pleasure some 17 years later. So worth every penny for me.

No matter some people spend more, £2500 is still a good investment on a hi-fi and you can get a lot for that money. Nice story too, thanks for sharing!

[passionforsound]

The_Burg said:

HiFi yes, recording quality nope.
Modern recordings are terrible clipped, compressed crap. There are exceptions but very few.

This is the reason HiFi has effectively died and everyone uses crappy MP3, the CD doesn't sound better any more. It's just as bad.

Try and get a recording from a local band straight from the desk at a gig not studio.

You will be staggered.

The victim of the Loudness War is us and the HiFi industry which the UK ruled the world in for a many, many years.

With respect you can't generalise so much though and its not all doom and gloom with modern recordings - great quality recordings are out there if you know where to look. Some (a lot) of the music on Spotify sounds great, HDTracks and many other online sources exist for high res stuff and you'd be shocked if I told you how much vinyl we're selling now compared to over the last 5 years (more than ever).

We've seen a huge increase in interest in hi-fi in general over the last year from the "next generation of listeners" and while its certainly not an everyday thing in the way it was in the 1970s (nowadays thats the iPhone or the iPod, but what hasnt changed?) its interesting to see the next gen listeners discover hi-fi fresh. We wrote the manifesto to fuel more of these very conversations!

Don't forget point 11 though - if it sounds good it can't be bad.

[passionforsound]

Crackie said:

Hi Passionforsound,
At what price point do you consider 'good' Hi-Fi starts ? ( system with single CD or vinyl source )

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 24th July 08:35

A good starter system with a single source (i.e. amplifier, bookshelf speakers and either CD player or turntable) can start for only a few hundred pounds - there is some fantastic "budget" kit on the market. Where you go from there is upto you, the listener needs to explore what sound they're getting for £1k, £2k, etc. Many of our visitors push over £1k as they see the benefits of going a little higher and want to get interest free finance.

For a good solid single source system you're looking at £1k+ but nowadays you can get a lot more for your money. Some single box systems have changed the rules in recent years like the Arcam Solo Mini and Naim Uniti range - match a Uniti model (which combines CD/streaming with an amp and DAC) with a good pair of speakers and you've got one hell of a compact system with the benefit that it can *still* be upgraded as and when you see fit by adding a separate power amp, etc (see item 6 on the manifesto)

[passionforsound]

Jobbo said:

Three points:
- floorstanders are best? That's opinion; it would equally be opinion (and possibly more accurate) to say electrostatics are best, but neither opinion has any place in the list.
- the cables matter comment sounds like an upselling opportunity, deliberately vague to cause doubt in the listener's mind. They matter in that they must be sufficient, yes, but 10%? No way. Plus cables are priced by the metre, so there's a physical reason for paying more in a larger room, to put the kit where you want it. Not a sound quality reason.
- Number 12 should be number 1.

- Good point about electrostatics. Outside of many budgets though and in many cases not practical. We have to keep our Quad 2912s out of the way and wheel them to our showroom for demos as theyre too big to have out permanently.
- Cables matter, but as part of the point on 10% on accessories. I disagree with the point raised by another member that someone with a £10k system would spend £200 on a rack (this has never happened with us, the 10% rule more or less holds true), but remember point 10, if you don't hear the difference its not worth it and we actively encourage people to listen to one cable over another and against the cheap "giveaway" ones
- Agreed on the last one, we just wanted to end and start with a bang! :-)

[passionforsound]

Crackie said:

Do you have an opinion on why speaker makers and amplifier makers don't generally sell speaker cable and why amplifier and source component makers don't generally sell interconnects ? .

Edited by Crackie on Friday 25th July 07:03

For the same reason why car makers (in most cases) don't make or sell tyres or car radios. Doesn't mean that good ones don't make a difference.

Edited by passionforsound on Saturday 26th July 19:51

[passionforsound]

Gurbinder said:

I have just moved back to what I think is a good hi-fi after years of listening to a B&W Zepplin, I bought the following and can say I am impressed.

Pro-ject Debut Carbon Turntable
Audiolab 8200CD OLED Cd Player
Rega Brio R Amp
Trichord Dino MK2 with Dino+ power supply
Arcam rdock
B&W 685 S2 Speakers

All with uprated power, speaker and phono cables.

It sounds great!

Sounds like a great set-up you've put together there. As the American's say on the forums, enjoy it in good health!

[passionforsound]

TonyRPH said:

I see this stated a lot - however in my own experience, I still prefer a CD, despite ripping my entire collection to flac a couple of years ago.

I've tried various DAC / media player combinations too, but CD still wins for me...

To answer the OP's original question - do I still believe in good hi-fi? Hell yes!!!

Glad to hear it Tony! :-)

It doesn't always prove to be the case, but I've often thought a real appreciation of cars can go hand in hand with a real appreciation of good sounding music. To be really simply about it, the pleasure we get from a car that handles, accelerates and stops well (i.e. does everything sharper and better than a "normal" car) is not so far removed to the pleasure you can derive from music that sounds better in every way with greater clarify, definition and bass response.

I'll probably get derided over that suggestion, but in both cases you're looking for something that achieves the final percentage of perfection in each area in order to enjoy it more.

You could extend this analogy to say that track based cars (the final percentile of performance) is akin to really, really high end stuff, as its the smallest minority of customers, but budget to high end stuff fills the gap for music appreciation that drivers cars do for motoring.

Think that's true?

[passionforsound]

10% is only a guideline in hi-fi, not for cables but for "accessories" - so this includes cables, speaker stands, racks (and some even consider headphones an "accessory" as well). Try spending £1000 on a hifi and getting decent speaker stands, rack, cables and headphones for only £100. We all have contesting opinions on this but its only a guideline. You'd be shocked but some customers value cables more than others and spend a lot more than 10% (ever heard of Nordost?) As the Hi-Fi Manifesto says though, make up your own mind!

Back on topic, we'd love to heard from others on here who still have a passion for hi-fi on what they think of our manifesto? (feel free to post a pic of your system)

[passionforsound]

Crackie said:

I agree we shouldn't neglect any of the upstream components but most would agree there is a system hierarchy. Clearly different people will have different views upon what that hierarchy is; things have certainly changed a bit as digital has evolved. Source was always king when I was younger; it was easy to understand why well engineered products like LP12s sounded superior to less sophisticated alternatives. Extremely good digital sources and amps are now available for very little money; the speaker is now the most influential component in the system.

I applaud Passionforsound's manifesto; it might help some people enjoy music more but I think the manifesto should also make it clear that many listeners are likely to achieve the biggest improvements in their systems perceived sound quality if they also understood more about the benefits of nearfield listening, reducing early reflections, optimising speaker placement etc. The difference between doing these things well and badly can be 30 or more decibels, and that's why I think these factors should come near the top of the hierarchy.

Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 29th July 23:32

Thanks for your contribution, agreed on the aspects of room correction you've suggested. Unfortunately in most cases when we recommend taking these steps to anyone who isn't already an audiophile, it often falls on flat ears and customers think room correction is hocus pocus - until we show them some before and after examples. I think hesitation comes down to not wanting massive bass traps and ugly panels on the wall etc, but in most cases (and some installs we've done), you can get them covered with artwork and they just end up looking like canvasses.

The easiest thing everyone can do with minimal effort though is:
1) Check speaker positioning as you've suggested - distance from wall/side surfaces, angle and make sure spikes/stands are level
2) Make sure carpet is under/in front of the speakers (a rug will do if you have wooden floors!)
3) Have as many soft furnishings and books in the room as possible, ideally with thick curtains rather than blinds