Looking at changing my Celestion A2s...but to what?
Discussion
I've had my A2s for over a decade now and they continue to sound brilliant. However, I'm starting to fancy a change, I don't know why but I've just got a bee in my bonnet about it. It's been a long time since I looked at the speaker market so I thought i would turn to the font of all knowledge that is the PH forum.
I'll be honest, on a number of occasions I've considered just upgrading to the A3s which I'd hope would be more of the same but.....bigger. That said, my room is probably the limiting factor and I have a sneaking concern that the A3s need space to breathe along with something a little beefier in the amp department. Speaking of which, the source for this is my vast array of FLACs played in JRiver. This feeds into a Creative X-Fi HD 24/96 external soundcard which I appreciate probably isn't the height of audiophile nirvana but it's certainly impressive as an upgrade over the internal soundcard on the PC.
The amp is a Cyrus 8vs2 which I bought as a 'stop-gap' for about £700 when I sold my Naim and it's never left. It doesn't struggle to control the A2s which is the main thing. They're nominally a pretty easy ride - 91dB sensitivity and a 4 ohm load if memory serves, although I understand that it's better to have more power than not enough when it comes to amps. It puts out about 70w/ch into 8ohms and 110 into 4.
I don't think it'll be man enough for the A3s, so what other speaker options are there out there to consider when looking at used and a price point of around £500-1000ish? I'd like to buy something I can run whilst hanging onto my A2s just in case I realise I've made a horrendous mistake! I may shift the A2s on at a later date. I don't have to spend that much if there are some good options available for less, it's just that the A2s will still fetch around £400 and I could 'top up' if required.
Sound-wise I like a solid but not overpowering bass. I used to be a drummer so punchy but deep drums (especially kicks) and bass tickle my bits. I'd like a little more clarity in the midrange and treble, although my hearing may well be the ultimate limiting factor on this front as I know the hearing in my left ear is declining a little already. I listen to pretty much anything right through from solo acoustic guitars to funk (natch), blues, jazz, prog metal, rock, pop, classical - basically I'm looking for something that covers most of the bases rather than being particularly good at only a few. Whatever I go for next will have to have some serious weight so stand-mount speakers are definitely out.
Prior to purchasing the A2s I auditioned - and discounted - a lot of speakers so it may help with giving an idea of what I didn't go for at the time:
Naim Credos - as a Naim owner at the time, I listened to these when they were new. They were great with jazz and classical but didn't really know how to let rip and boogie with more bassy, harder stuff.
Kef Reference 2 - These were probably the only other speakers at the time that got close to pipping the Celestions. I recall them sounding great.
B&W 804 (I think!) - I really liked the B&Ws. They sounded pretty great on the end of the demo system in the shop's dem room but on the end of the Naim it wasn't quite so harmonious, they sounded too forward. I think it was the Naim/B&W combo rather than a flaw in either component. I'd certainly look at B&W again.
I'm aware that many of the above will sound very different on the end of the Cyrus rather than the Naim.
I do wonder if I'm setting off on something of a fool's errand..? The A2s were very underrated at the time and as I say, they don't do anything wrong at all. I think I just have an itch to scratch after having the same speakers for so long!
I've just been looking at a pair of Sonus Faber Toy Towers for £850, does anyone have any experience of them?
Over to you guys - any recommendations or 'must-hears'?
I'll be honest, on a number of occasions I've considered just upgrading to the A3s which I'd hope would be more of the same but.....bigger. That said, my room is probably the limiting factor and I have a sneaking concern that the A3s need space to breathe along with something a little beefier in the amp department. Speaking of which, the source for this is my vast array of FLACs played in JRiver. This feeds into a Creative X-Fi HD 24/96 external soundcard which I appreciate probably isn't the height of audiophile nirvana but it's certainly impressive as an upgrade over the internal soundcard on the PC.
The amp is a Cyrus 8vs2 which I bought as a 'stop-gap' for about £700 when I sold my Naim and it's never left. It doesn't struggle to control the A2s which is the main thing. They're nominally a pretty easy ride - 91dB sensitivity and a 4 ohm load if memory serves, although I understand that it's better to have more power than not enough when it comes to amps. It puts out about 70w/ch into 8ohms and 110 into 4.
I don't think it'll be man enough for the A3s, so what other speaker options are there out there to consider when looking at used and a price point of around £500-1000ish? I'd like to buy something I can run whilst hanging onto my A2s just in case I realise I've made a horrendous mistake! I may shift the A2s on at a later date. I don't have to spend that much if there are some good options available for less, it's just that the A2s will still fetch around £400 and I could 'top up' if required.
Sound-wise I like a solid but not overpowering bass. I used to be a drummer so punchy but deep drums (especially kicks) and bass tickle my bits. I'd like a little more clarity in the midrange and treble, although my hearing may well be the ultimate limiting factor on this front as I know the hearing in my left ear is declining a little already. I listen to pretty much anything right through from solo acoustic guitars to funk (natch), blues, jazz, prog metal, rock, pop, classical - basically I'm looking for something that covers most of the bases rather than being particularly good at only a few. Whatever I go for next will have to have some serious weight so stand-mount speakers are definitely out.
Prior to purchasing the A2s I auditioned - and discounted - a lot of speakers so it may help with giving an idea of what I didn't go for at the time:
Naim Credos - as a Naim owner at the time, I listened to these when they were new. They were great with jazz and classical but didn't really know how to let rip and boogie with more bassy, harder stuff.
Kef Reference 2 - These were probably the only other speakers at the time that got close to pipping the Celestions. I recall them sounding great.
B&W 804 (I think!) - I really liked the B&Ws. They sounded pretty great on the end of the demo system in the shop's dem room but on the end of the Naim it wasn't quite so harmonious, they sounded too forward. I think it was the Naim/B&W combo rather than a flaw in either component. I'd certainly look at B&W again.
I'm aware that many of the above will sound very different on the end of the Cyrus rather than the Naim.
I do wonder if I'm setting off on something of a fool's errand..? The A2s were very underrated at the time and as I say, they don't do anything wrong at all. I think I just have an itch to scratch after having the same speakers for so long!
I've just been looking at a pair of Sonus Faber Toy Towers for £850, does anyone have any experience of them?
Over to you guys - any recommendations or 'must-hears'?
Edited by Funk on Wednesday 22 May 00:35
Thread bump...! Four years later I'm still running my A2s in the same setup but.......a pair of A3s in cherry have popped up on ebay.
The starting bid is £1,100 which I think is a little high (a mate of mine sold his rosewood A3s for £950 a year ago and I doubt A3s are appreciating!) and the fact he's had zero bids on this and his first listing with a starting bid of £1350 shows I'm not alone in thinking they're a little over the odds.
I also have reservations about paying through ebay prior to seeing/hearing them. I've messaged the seller and he's said I'd be welcome to hear them but he's already sold the rest of his gear so it would involve taking a source, amp and cabling up if I were to win. I'm also not sure what the process would be if I decided they didn't sound right - I'd have to get the transaction cancelled as I obviously wouldn't take them away and wouldn't want to leave without the money back in my Paypal account.
If I decide they're too good to pass up, what's the best way to proceed here chaps? I'm more used to turning up with cash, demo and inspect then hand over the readies.
The starting bid is £1,100 which I think is a little high (a mate of mine sold his rosewood A3s for £950 a year ago and I doubt A3s are appreciating!) and the fact he's had zero bids on this and his first listing with a starting bid of £1350 shows I'm not alone in thinking they're a little over the odds.
I also have reservations about paying through ebay prior to seeing/hearing them. I've messaged the seller and he's said I'd be welcome to hear them but he's already sold the rest of his gear so it would involve taking a source, amp and cabling up if I were to win. I'm also not sure what the process would be if I decided they didn't sound right - I'd have to get the transaction cancelled as I obviously wouldn't take them away and wouldn't want to leave without the money back in my Paypal account.
If I decide they're too good to pass up, what's the best way to proceed here chaps? I'm more used to turning up with cash, demo and inspect then hand over the readies.
gizlaroc said:
I have not read through all the replies, so sorry if I repeat or contradict earlier replies.
For starts, you have never heard what the A2s can do, not on that amp.
I had A2s and at one point had them on a Cinepro 3k6 amp bridged, when you hear them with that amount power they really come alive.
I would say first I would upgrade your amp to something much better.
I would also say go for the A3s, they are just nicer, the disappear more and sound more effortless.
I'm really agonising over this one. I agree with you completely about not hearing the best out of the A2s and I really should upgrade the amp and the front end. I was getting some CPU noise through the Creative X-Fi so I'm temporarily using a cheap Behringer UCA202 DAC instead which lets me run optical out of the PC rather than via USB which is where the noise was coming from. Helpfully it also supports WASAPI exclusive which the Creative doesn't. It's not a permanent solution though.For starts, you have never heard what the A2s can do, not on that amp.
I had A2s and at one point had them on a Cinepro 3k6 amp bridged, when you hear them with that amount power they really come alive.
I would say first I would upgrade your amp to something much better.
I would also say go for the A3s, they are just nicer, the disappear more and sound more effortless.
I measured up last night and the A3s really would be pushing it in my room which is about 4m x 5m with the speakers firing across rather than down the length - this also usefully keeps them out of the corners too. I'm half tempted to buy these for the simple reason that they don't come up often in this colour and seem to be in immaculate condition and with an eye to where I could use them in a future property (although even as I type this it now sounds like a daft idea). The seller has said he's happy for me to bid and if I win (and am happy) to pay in cash when I go to collect so that's one concern removed.
The logical part of me knows I'd do better chucking a grand or two at a power amp (or a better integrated) and a decent DAC as per the excellent advice from everyone earlier in this thread. There's 9h left on the auction although I still think £1,100 is about 10-15% overpriced.
Decisions, decisions...
Edited by Funk on Friday 28th September 11:00
I still can't quite shake the idea of the A3s apart from the nagging thought that they might be too big for my room. They'd be about 0.5m from the rear wall but firing across rather than down the room so away from the side walls (probably just over a metre or so). For those who've had A3s, am I likely to find they don't work in the size room I have? There's no scope for re-arranging either unfortunately.
Either way I think an amp upgrade is on the cards anyway.
Either way I think an amp upgrade is on the cards anyway.
gizlaroc said:
This is where my money would go, try and get that for £900.
Awesome dac, amazing pre and stunning power amp.
The control from these is gobsmackingly good.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332816295879
Interesting; I think this would solve my next conundrum which is streaming FLAC from a network share. Would that Hegel be up to driving the A3s? I think I'm going to take a punt on those I mentioned earlier, but either way my amp needs an upgrade. The plan was to put a 557 on there (the one I missed this morning was £850) and use the Cyrus' pre-outs for the time being, possibly adding a 502 later on.Awesome dac, amazing pre and stunning power amp.
The control from these is gobsmackingly good.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332816295879
That H90 looks like it would do everything provided it could control the A3s...
Edit: there's also a Bel Canto S300 on ebay at the mo.... At £600 it's almost worth a blind punt just to see!
Edited by Funk on Friday 5th October 14:17
gizlaroc said:
Which S300?
Power amp, monos or the integrated?
I paid £600 for a pair of monos.
Also, the only issue I would have with the Hegel, which is silly, Rick at Musiccraft fell out with Hegel and cleared them out at £360 a pop.
He was doing the H160 for £850 or so, and the H360 for £1250 or something like that.
I ordered a 360 and then he sold it to someone else. By that time the 160 and 90s had gone.
Dual-mono power amp S300.Power amp, monos or the integrated?
I paid £600 for a pair of monos.
Also, the only issue I would have with the Hegel, which is silly, Rick at Musiccraft fell out with Hegel and cleared them out at £360 a pop.
He was doing the H160 for £850 or so, and the H360 for £1250 or something like that.
I ordered a 360 and then he sold it to someone else. By that time the 160 and 90s had gone.
Re. Hegel, tbh what I don't know won't hurt me I guess re. historical pricing etc. At the end of the day, something's only worth what someone's prepared to pay for it. I paid £600 for my A2s 20 years ago (they were only a year or so old at the time too) as I was buying from a guy upgrading to A3s at cost (he worked for a local hi-fi dealer at the time and the £600 was his cost to change; I told him I'd give him that immediately for his A2s and he could order his A3s the next day...he took the deal)! The A2s are still worth £400+ today...
I'm all over PFM etc already too...!
I'm quite sold on the Hegel concept as it would solve my 
DAC issue as well. Been reading and researching quite a bit the last couple of days and can't help wondering if I might do better going for the Röst with the A3s as it has around 15% more grunt? Feature-wise they don't really seem to differ much from what I can tell.
DAC issue as well. Been reading and researching quite a bit the last couple of days and can't help wondering if I might do better going for the Röst with the A3s as it has around 15% more grunt? Feature-wise they don't really seem to differ much from what I can tell.Crackie said:
The ones in Finland might still be available....if not you could place a wanted advert.
https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=celestion+a3
Thanks Crackie, I think they're more hassle than it's worth - the guy wants collection-only and NOK 10k is around £925. Their tweeters are the earlier ones (single bar), not in great nick and the front covers are missing if Google Translate is correct.https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=celestion+a3
I need to get my post-count up over on PFM to post a wanted ad - ironically it means blathering on for a bit without actually being able to contribute much of use over there... I'll also get wanted posts up on Hifi Wigwam, AVForums, Art of Sound, hififorsale etc.
To be frank there's no real urgency, I can wait. I will get the front end sorted first; I really like the look of the Hegel H90 and Röst - trying to work out whether the 25% power uplift on the Röst would give me more options speaker-wise in the future although I guess there'd be nothing to stop me selling an H90 to upgrade later.
It might also be interesting to look at other speaker options whilst I wait for A3s to come up one day; I'm not closed-minded enough to think the A3s are the be-all and end-all of speakers and something else out there might float my boat even more. Who knows...I suspect I may find hidden depths to the A2s with the improvements a Hegel brings.
Edited by Funk on Monday 8th October 23:19
So after faffing about looking at integrated network streamers for ages (Hegel, Leema Acoustics Quasar and - briefly - a Naim Nova) I decided to sort out my ste excuse for a DAC for the time being and have acquired an Audiolab M-DAC (in silver, I'd have preferred black but it was a sensible price). Surprising what a difference it's made to the sound and not bad for under £350 delivered (they were £600 new I think).
One of the things it does that's really convenient is allow volume control over the USB input from the PC (effectively it's a fancy-pants external USB soundcard really). It fits with the way I use my PC for everything on the big screen and I wasn't sure whether other integrated solutions would offer this functionality. Conveniently it's also capable of functioning as a digital pre-amp so I could just slap a decent power amp on the back of it as I don't use any analogue sources (the TV's output for things like smart functions and XBOX One X are optical so will also run straight into the M-DAC).
It's a vast improvement over the cheap Behringer USB DAC I was using! Still got the A2s and the Cyrus 8vs2 amp for the time being...
te excuse for a DAC for the time being and have acquired an Audiolab M-DAC (in silver, I'd have preferred black but it was a sensible price). Surprising what a difference it's made to the sound and not bad for under £350 delivered (they were £600 new I think).One of the things it does that's really convenient is allow volume control over the USB input from the PC (effectively it's a fancy-pants external USB soundcard really). It fits with the way I use my PC for everything on the big screen and I wasn't sure whether other integrated solutions would offer this functionality. Conveniently it's also capable of functioning as a digital pre-amp so I could just slap a decent power amp on the back of it as I don't use any analogue sources (the TV's output for things like smart functions and XBOX One X are optical so will also run straight into the M-DAC).
It's a vast improvement over the cheap Behringer USB DAC I was using! Still got the A2s and the Cyrus 8vs2 amp for the time being...
Another update (if anyone's still following this...)! I spotted an XTZ A100 D3 for sale, it has the power reserves to properly drive the A2s. Owner reports (including one who used his with A2s for years) and online reviews are overwhelmingly positive so for £495 I figured it's worth a punt! I should also get £300-ish back on the 8vs2 so the cost-to-change is negligible.
Specs:
Output power class AB
2x 110W 8 ohm RMS
2x 180W 4 ohm RMS
2x 300W 2 ohm RMS
Output power class A (apparently it sounds best in class A but runs very warm when doing so - the amp can auto-switch its modes depending on temp)
2x 50W 8 ohm RMS
Distortion: <0.03% (20hz to 20khz, 10w)
Frequency range: 5-50kHz (non flatness <0.5db)
Should hopefully get it set up this weekend.
Specs:
Output power class AB
2x 110W 8 ohm RMS
2x 180W 4 ohm RMS
2x 300W 2 ohm RMS
Output power class A (apparently it sounds best in class A but runs very warm when doing so - the amp can auto-switch its modes depending on temp)
2x 50W 8 ohm RMS
Distortion: <0.03% (20hz to 20khz, 10w)
Frequency range: 5-50kHz (non flatness <0.5db)
Should hopefully get it set up this weekend.
Edited by Funk on Friday 17th September 19:52
Thanks legzr1! It's completely not where I thought I'd end up but there we go...
Yes, it has several digital inputs, 4x coax and 1x optical:
It's kind of moot though as I'm running USB from the PC into the Audiolab M-DAC which gives me volume control from the PC itself which is one of the things I was after. The M-DAC also takes the TV's optical output too. It even has a switchable MM/MC phono stage if I ever feel the urge to add vinyl (unlikely as I don't have the space for records).
This XTZ has had a single owner and was merely a 'backup' amp apparently in the event the owner's main amp was away for a service etc and as such has relatively few hours on the clock.
As you say, the cost is so small and if I don't like it for some reason I doubt I'll have too much hassle shifting it on either. Just goes to show what can be done with relatively little money on the used market. The whole system owes me less than £1,500...!
Out of interest do you know roughly what the original UK RRP was for the XTZ? There's not a huge amount of information online about pricing any more.
Yes, it has several digital inputs, 4x coax and 1x optical:
It's kind of moot though as I'm running USB from the PC into the Audiolab M-DAC which gives me volume control from the PC itself which is one of the things I was after. The M-DAC also takes the TV's optical output too. It even has a switchable MM/MC phono stage if I ever feel the urge to add vinyl (unlikely as I don't have the space for records).
This XTZ has had a single owner and was merely a 'backup' amp apparently in the event the owner's main amp was away for a service etc and as such has relatively few hours on the clock.
As you say, the cost is so small and if I don't like it for some reason I doubt I'll have too much hassle shifting it on either. Just goes to show what can be done with relatively little money on the used market. The whole system owes me less than £1,500...!
Out of interest do you know roughly what the original UK RRP was for the XTZ? There's not a huge amount of information online about pricing any more.
Edited by Funk on Wednesday 22 May 20:24
A brief setup/play has really impressed me, need to set it up properly and do some more extensive listening when my tinnitus isn't whistling quite so much....
I think I should replace my old interconnects (Cable Talk Monitor 2) as they're tatty and the shrouds on the connectors are disintegrating with age. Any recommendations under £100? Speaker cable is Chord Odyssey 2 which I don't think needs changing.
I think I should replace my old interconnects (Cable Talk Monitor 2) as they're tatty and the shrouds on the connectors are disintegrating with age. Any recommendations under £100? Speaker cable is Chord Odyssey 2 which I don't think needs changing.
Had a spot of good luck a few weeks back - an ad popped up for a single, poor condition black A3; I wasn't interested in it but what did catch my eye was a pair of cherry A3s on the other side of the room. I messaged the seller to say I wasn't interested in the single black one but would appreciate if he would let me know if he ever came to sell the cherry ones. He messaged back and said he had actually been thinking about moving them on (he has another pair as well as a pair of A1s). His asking price was sensible and he asked if I minded giving him a couple of weeks to allow him to demo the single one in a 'pair' which was also reasonable. He sent over some pics of all the drive units etc and they're in superb condition.
So today found me setting off early for Huddersfield to collect them. Over 10 hours, 600 miles and £900 later they're in my living room and holy snot they're big! They make the A2s look like kids' toys... Initial impressions were that the bass was going to b e a problem but now the amp's warmed up they're sounding wonderfully balanced. They have the sort of effortlessness which comes from having so many drivers and cabinet space. Now the bass has calmed down, the biggest improvement - and which I'm so pleased about as it was one of the things I was looking for - is the midrange. The fact that the A3's mid unit is doing only that and bass duties fall to the 3 dedicated drivers means there's an openness that the A2s just never quite had.
The XTZ is doing a sterling job of driving them and I'm looking forward to spending the next few days and weeks running through my favourite albums!
So today found me setting off early for Huddersfield to collect them. Over 10 hours, 600 miles and £900 later they're in my living room and holy snot they're big! They make the A2s look like kids' toys... Initial impressions were that the bass was going to b e a problem but now the amp's warmed up they're sounding wonderfully balanced. They have the sort of effortlessness which comes from having so many drivers and cabinet space. Now the bass has calmed down, the biggest improvement - and which I'm so pleased about as it was one of the things I was looking for - is the midrange. The fact that the A3's mid unit is doing only that and bass duties fall to the 3 dedicated drivers means there's an openness that the A2s just never quite had.
The XTZ is doing a sterling job of driving them and I'm looking forward to spending the next few days and weeks running through my favourite albums!
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