Mr Bates vs The Post Office

[tamore]

really looking forward to this, and hope it gets the story back in the public conscience.

how nobody from the post office or fujitsu is doing a stretch is beyond me. they have ruined multiple lives, and it's been blamed directly for 4 suicides.

[tamore]

knowledge that the system was faulty and continuing to prosecute innocent people and ruining their lives. indeed, directly driving at least 4 to end their lives, i'd go corp manslaughter?

looks like the post i was replying to was deleted before i pressed submit. was questioning what the execs actually did wrong.

Edited by tamore on Monday 1st January 15:26

[tamore]

Bonefish Blues said:

I bet someone turned up in a boardroom and proudly announced that the new system had uncovered widespread hitherto undetected fraud.

probably didn't quite happen like that, but they absolutely knew the system wasn't calculating correctly.

[tamore]

SydneyBridge said:

It was assumed that the computer system could not possibly be wrong

not what the panorama programme unearthed. the code was bad, fujitsu knew it was bad, the techies said it needed a re-write, cost was put ahead of integrity. the rest is history…….

[tamore]

absolutely piss boiling stuff. good to see the PO and Fujitsu getting panned on social media.

[tamore]

ArnageWRC said:

'Enjoyable' if that is the right word.....

But as it's already been said, it leaves you feeling so angry......More imcompetence from management, who believed IT systems were infallible.

more than incompetence. look up richard roll who was a 4th line techy at fujitsu

[tamore]

Alickadoo said:

What I am suggesting is that we keep a sense of proportion.

The Post Office is not totally corrupt. It may have been partially corrupt.

The country is not ruined.

I am suggesting that we avoid exaggerated language.

Calm down, dear.

i agree. however, as a country we need to be better at going after people with money/influence when appropriate.

[tamore]

i really hope there's a public groundswell of outrage about this. there are execs who need to be put in the dock.

that and general annoyance with what corporations are getting away with and not being held to account. thames water being a prime example.

[tamore]

98elise said:

IT department normally have far greater power to access and change stuff. It's what their job is.

Someone with live database access can alter just about anything on most systems.

From a freedom of information request ……..

In written evidence to the BIS Select Committee Inquiry of 2015, POL gave the following assurance:

‘There is no functionality in Horizon for either a branch, Post Office or Fujitsu (suppliers of the Horizon system) to edit, manipulate or remove transaction data once it has been recorded in a branch’s accounts’ (point 47).

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidenc...

The stance on remote access of that time is recalled by ex POL CEO Paula Vennells in her letter of response to the BEIS Select Committee’s 2020 Inquiry into POL and Horizon:

‘I raised this question repeatedly, both internally and with Fujitsu, and was always given the same answer: that it was not possible for branch records to be altered remotely without the sub-postmaster’s knowledge’.

Please can you supply communications and/or audit reports from Fujitsu in which Fujitsu gives assurance that branch accounts could not be remotely accessed without an SPM’s knowledge and on which POL’s based the assurances it gave to MPs?

(Below, letter from Paula Vennells to BEIS Select Committee of 24th June 2020, p16, point 54):

https://committees.parliament.uk/publica...

Yours faithfully
Eleanor Shaikh

[tamore]

98elise said:

You should (through change management) but it's not a given. You can change data with no trail, turn off any automated trails, even manipulate the data in audit trails. I've legitimately done that as regularly on our business systems.

My point is it's not a revelation that some people have far reaching access on IT systems. It's part of the job when you're the admin.

In addition systems are often wrong. I doubt a bug free system exists. Finding as fixing bugs and errors is a matter of routine in IT.

I've not seen the drama yet so thus is just a general comment rather than specific to fujistu/Horizon.

https://www.postofficescandal.uk/post/livetweets/fujitsu-whistleblower-richard-rolls-evidence-session/

they knew the system was st.

[tamore]

andyA700 said:

Whilst everyone else could see the Post Office for what they were, Ed Davey is now on his bike with thirty reverse gears, saying he was misled by the Post Office. What a total piece of slime he is.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/03/p...

wasn't it his job to be thorough and not take everything on face value? this is the crux of the problem in this country, regulators and politicians don't challenge large corporations. you know, their job.

[tamore]

i think there will be some very concerned (former) execs of PO and Fujitsu tonight. i don't think it's beyond the incumbent ruling party to hang them out to dry to gain public favour.

[tamore]

98elise said:

Of the 150 appeals so far about 50 have been upheld, so it seems about a third are guilty.

People do stupid things. My brother worked in the bar and club world for many years. Quite a few times a manager would do a moonlight flit with the days cash takings. It could be 10's of thousands, but not life changing amounts. I wouldn't risk my liberty and career for what is less than a years salary, but some people would it seems!

So are you linked to PO or fujitsu?

[tamore]

98elise said:

No, what makes you think I am?

The numbers are not mine, they are simply whats been reported.

your posts! especially the one you deleted on page one which was seemingly defending the execs.

[tamore]

98elise said:

tamore said:

98elise said:

No, what makes you think I am?

The numbers are not mine, they are simply whats been reported.

your posts! especially the one you deleted on page one which was seemingly defending the execs.

I haven’t defended any execs.

I've posted my career on here a few times and never mentioned the PO or Fujitsu. I have no skin in the game whatsoever. What in my posts makes you think I'm linked?

Edited by 98elise on Saturday 6th January 23:39

was the one you deleted in particular. i'll ask a mod to log on in the night as you and re-instate it

Edited by tamore on Sunday 7th January 07:56

[tamore]

Randy Winkman said:

As a civil servant (sorry if you've heard that before), I do wonder why the only stuff in the drama about ministerial/departmental input into the process as it all happened was Nadhim Zahawi being all tough at a 2015 committee inquiry. There must have been way more than that.

only stuff actually captured and on record? rest could be subject to investigation?

[tamore]

Mercdriver said:

That must be bad for the family not believing their dad and then finding out he was innocent.

Nobody is going to win out of this apart from the lawyers

no, but the likes of vennells needs to lose badly too. not just a tarnished reputation, gong retuned and apologies. needs to be time served.

[tamore]

glenrobbo said:

bad company said:

The petition now has over 981,000 signatures, it’s going to top a million.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula...

Latest figure: 1,221,718 of 1,300,000 signatures

target goes up every time it's hit. was 5000 before the drama landed on ITVX!

[tamore]

Gary C said:

I just hope they give Mr Bates the Honour that Paula Vennells is handing back. He deserves it and it would be symbolic that it had been taken from her and given to him.

While I dislike Religion, I hope her church also give her the boot.

he was offered a gong and refused until the stshow is sorted out. vennells grabbed hers like homer grabbing a donut.

[tamore]

Eric Mc said:

I was watching an interesting discussion on whether the current political system really allows ministers to be on top of their brief in any meaningful way.

Most hold their jobs for less than two years - which is hardly enough time to get to grips with their portfolio.
I'm not making excuses for them but it is very difficult to arrive in a very important and complex job with almost no experience in the field and then get moved on just when you might be getting to understand what the job actually requires.

not only that, but people can be moved into positions they know nothing about. health, to education, to home sec, to…….. etc. no major corporation would allow execs to hop multiple positions like this with no previous knowledge of the field. the only jack of all should be the PM.