Abortion - time for a new debate?
Discussion
Sorry in advance - this is a gritty topic and not particularly pleasant.
A piece in this morning's headline referred to the guilty verdict passed on Kermit Gosnell, a doctor operating an abortion clinic in Philadelphia. The facts of that case are staggering, and repulsive - read more here (be warned - it is not pleasant) http://www.steynonline.com/3710/big-government-bac...
Whilst this is an appalling case, and not one mirrored here in the UK, did you know just how many abortions are performed in the UK each year?
189,000 on UK residents. In one year. More stats here;https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdGswZVJ6OFp1QWsyOTZBbUxSNVFLSUE&hl=en_US#gid=0
Since it became legal in 1968 we've terminated 6.4 million British foetus'!
It makes me wonder why this subject does not get debated more widely...that's an average of more than 142,000 per year.
Sad, IMHO, but what do you think?
A piece in this morning's headline referred to the guilty verdict passed on Kermit Gosnell, a doctor operating an abortion clinic in Philadelphia. The facts of that case are staggering, and repulsive - read more here (be warned - it is not pleasant) http://www.steynonline.com/3710/big-government-bac...
Whilst this is an appalling case, and not one mirrored here in the UK, did you know just how many abortions are performed in the UK each year?
189,000 on UK residents. In one year. More stats here;https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdGswZVJ6OFp1QWsyOTZBbUxSNVFLSUE&hl=en_US#gid=0
Since it became legal in 1968 we've terminated 6.4 million British foetus'!
It makes me wonder why this subject does not get debated more widely...that's an average of more than 142,000 per year.
Sad, IMHO, but what do you think?
sugerbear said:
The Don of Croy said:
Since it became legal in 1968 we've terminated 6.4 million British foetus'!
Because what the country really needs is 6.4 million extra people to educate, feed, house, find employment for etc etc. Countries need people, people need economic activity to grow (to prosper), and apparently we're happy 'losing' 142,000 every year (whilst importing 150k 'others' who may not share our cultural and ethnic norms).
I don't support the abolition of abortion. I do wonder about the numbers, though.
I don't want to get into the semantics over 'is this viable' as, frankly, I haven't a clue what is...
What I cannot get my head around is the 'requirement' to abort nearly 12,000 foetus' every month...
They cannot all be a) product of criminal sex crime (can they?), b) odds-on medically affected so as to mitigate against an enjoyable life, c) potential off-spring of chavvy underclass unsuited to child rearing (current assessment of benefits recipients would suggest not)...
People, it's 380 odd per day we're terminating. Surely that is too many?
What I cannot get my head around is the 'requirement' to abort nearly 12,000 foetus' every month...
They cannot all be a) product of criminal sex crime (can they?), b) odds-on medically affected so as to mitigate against an enjoyable life, c) potential off-spring of chavvy underclass unsuited to child rearing (current assessment of benefits recipients would suggest not)...
People, it's 380 odd per day we're terminating. Surely that is too many?
SpeckledJim said:
Well the discussion is about a principle. The principle wouldn't change if it were concerning 1 foetus or 1m.
No, my point was about the numbers. I find them disturbing.The principle is different, IMHO.
Too often I hear a politician trotting out the tired cliche "...if it only saves one life then it is a price worth paying..." as an excuse for spending x millions on some pet project.
But if life is that sacred, why are we terminating it on an industrial scale?
lauda said:
The relevance is that you seem to be struggling to understand the difference between ending or taking a life and murder. Legal abortion, by its very definition, cannot be murder.
If you are not questioning the principle, but the numbers then your problem is not with abortion but with unwanted pregnancy. Which is a totally different topic for discussion.
We may at crossed purposes here - I've not used the M word anywhere in this thread that I'm aware of.If you are not questioning the principle, but the numbers then your problem is not with abortion but with unwanted pregnancy. Which is a totally different topic for discussion.
If abortion is the de facto 'answer' to unwanted pregnancies, then that's where part of the problem lies (in offering a way out to those who erred). Back in the US there is a TV anchorwoman who said she hoped to meet her unborn children in heaven one day...she'd had multiple abortions but child rearing didn't fit her current career IIRC.
lauda said:
You're absolutely right, I apologise, I'd confused your OP with dundarach's posts.
What other answer do you propose to unwanted pregnancy though? If you find yourself pregnant and you don't want it, there are only two options. Terminate the pregnancy or have the baby and give it up for adoption. From a mental, emotional and physical health perspective, most women will choose to terminate in those circumstances.
Surely efforts should be focused on preventing people who don't want to get pregnant from getting pregnant in the first place. The level of ignorance around pregnancy and birth control among young people is scary. If parents and schools were having more open, honest conversations with kids around sex and sexual health, the issue of unwanted pregnancies wouldn't be so significant and abortions would reduce accordingly.
I don't know what more recent data shows but until recently the UK had one of the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in Europe. If other countries can deal with this underlying issue, why can't we?
Apology accepted - no worries.What other answer do you propose to unwanted pregnancy though? If you find yourself pregnant and you don't want it, there are only two options. Terminate the pregnancy or have the baby and give it up for adoption. From a mental, emotional and physical health perspective, most women will choose to terminate in those circumstances.
Surely efforts should be focused on preventing people who don't want to get pregnant from getting pregnant in the first place. The level of ignorance around pregnancy and birth control among young people is scary. If parents and schools were having more open, honest conversations with kids around sex and sexual health, the issue of unwanted pregnancies wouldn't be so significant and abortions would reduce accordingly.
I don't know what more recent data shows but until recently the UK had one of the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in Europe. If other countries can deal with this underlying issue, why can't we?
Your points about unwanted pregnancy are apposite. The two issues are, of course, connected inextricably...it's just the abortion numbers help to highlight the scale of the problem.
I genuinely do not know how - as a society - we can row back on this. It really is a conundrum, except that, if girls said no and boys accepted that decision we'd have one less thread to debate.
I've just found a site quoting French stats - they're higher! Although the same site also quotes Italy as having had higher rates 20 years ago (Catholocism notwithstanding)...see http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wr...
MrBrightSi said:
We should push abortion more and contraception. People breeding out of control is whats causing a lot of the problems right now.
We should be pushing social responsibility of everyone involved rather than mollycoddling them and saying "oh its ok, your vermin children who will cost the average tax payer a lot of money and stress are ok!"
I would point you in the direction of the fillum 'Idocracy' - a timely and thoughtful treatise on modern breeding outcomes.We should be pushing social responsibility of everyone involved rather than mollycoddling them and saying "oh its ok, your vermin children who will cost the average tax payer a lot of money and stress are ok!"
A prosperous and sustainable society needs to reproduce. Which people, now that is a vexatious issue...
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