Can we talk about Sweden for a bit?

[Looket]

Let's talk about Sweden. I feel that the world should know what's happening here at the moment.

It's all very complicated, and I don't feel quite well-informed enough to explain everything from top to bottom so perhaps other Swedish (or others with ties here) users could fill in the blanks.

Basically, a lot in Sweden is public record. My name, NI number, phone numbers, registered address, registered cars, income, high school grades, criminal record and any correspondence I've ever had with government (e.g student loans company) are all out there for all and sundry to marvel at. Most of it free, some of it yours for a small fee to a private company.

Now, there are two companies in particular that act more akin to STASI than anything else. Piscatus, owned by Robert Aschberg (tv personality with a show called 'Troll Hunters' that turns up at peoples' homes to confront them about what they've written on the internet, and grandson to an infamous banker who allegedly laundered stolen Soviet gold) describes itself as a 'news agency' that specialises in collecting and collating information from courts, authorities and government agencies. For a small fee all information pertaining to an individual found in those documents is yours. Also on the board is Martin Fredriksson, a self-proclaimed journalist heading the group known as Researchgruppen.

Researchgruppen is a collection of political activists cum journalists with many and known ties to extraparliamentarian autonomous leftist groups. In other words, the violent extreme revolutionary left. In 2013 they hacked the entire Disqus database together with the newspaper Expressen to name and publish people who had been expressing anti-immigration views. They have claimed that they have the names and full details of around 400 people that in essence, have the wrong opinions. What will eventually happen to those people or their details is anyone's guess.

However, the last few days have been a bit special. It all started when yet another newspaper, Aftonbladet, stated that they would start naming 'trolls' and 'haters' on Flashback. Flashback is the largest general interest forum in Sweden with a million registered users and topics covering every imaginable aspect of human interest - from computer games to drugs, from sexual-, psychological- and medical health issues to politics. Despite promising to only publish those in a position of power, thus far a doctor, a lawyer, a lumberjack (WTF!) and ONE politician have been outed for their views on immigration and 'racist' comments. There is a lot more to come.

It has been rumoured for years that Researchgruppen had a hacked database dump of the Flashback membership list, but nothing was ever confirmed. Two days ago however, Piscatus were hacked and a list containing the NI numbers and emails to 40,000 people registered at Flashback was leaked. As things stand, it would appear that Researchgruppen indeed do have a membership list (albeit slightly dated, around 2010 or so) and that they have cross-referenced the e-mails used for registering at Flashback with information stolen from hacked internet shopping sites et al; this would be the final list of 40,000 e-mails that they have been able to connect to actual people. This list has then been shared with the likes of Piscatus and God knows who else to presumably trawl through each and every single post ever written by those people. A huge register of views if you will, available to anyone for a small fee. And all in the name of journalism and freedom of expression, of course. Also highly illegal, but seeing as the period of limitation has now passed... meh.

At this point I should explain what we like to call the 'opinion corridor' over here. It's an incredibly narrow spectrum of views and opinions that are considered OK by the medial and political elite - the rest are immediately brandished racist, nazi, fascist and so on. Our last prime minister explicitly stated that Sweden does not belong to Swedes. In other words, any kind of opposition to current (batst crazy, I might add) immigration policies is very much taboo. It is openly accepted that anyone supporting the Sweden Democrats (UKIP equivalent currently polling around 20%) only have themselves to blame if they get physically abused - let alone loses their job and becomes a social outcast. I'm not exaggerating, it's not hyperbole, it just is what it is. I would quite literally be fearful of my own life had I been in that list and expressed any kind of 'deviating' views.

Sorry if this is all very confusing a frankly a bit odd, but again - I'm a bit confused myself and I hope others can fill in the blanks and connect the dots. I just wanted to let you all know that time travel is indeed a possibility - you're only a two hour plane ride away from 1984.

I despair.

[Looket]

This is a fair summation of events: http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=3269...

It looks and reads like a bit of a looney site, but it explains things a bit better. Just to clarify, unlike the previous Expressen outing, this one has not been entirely focused on SD. This time private individuals without any seemingly obvious political affiliation have been hung out to dry. There's a Green Party politician, and the aforementioned lawyer has some kind of relation to SD but the rest are just normal people with 'uncomfortable' opinions.

The thing is, it's not really about SD (or any kind of perceived racism or any other BS) at all. The debate climate in Sweden is ridiculously repressive, people simply can't voice their opinions without fear of heavy reprisals. So there's a lot of pent up frustration, and the sole outlet is Flashback. People are angry, people are upset, and in the heat of the moment they say things that sound really quite bad. These are the people, who come from all walks of life, that the establishment is hounding relentlessly. And now also evidently systematically surveilling and creating huge databases worth of incredibly sensitive data available to anyone with a bit of cash. It's rather slippery a slope and dangerous in more ways than I could possibly begin to imagine. As said, there are 1 million registered users (out of a population of 9 million) - there are all kinds of people there. Politicians, journalists, normal 9-5 proles, students, but perhaps most importantly a plethora of criminals, psychos and general nutters who now have learned that a.) they may be rumbled and b.) people they don't particularly like on there may be rumbled in exchange for $$. Do the math. Also add a rather large chunk of the extreme (and violent) left with free access to that database and you have a serious social disaster on your hands.

Bluebarge, I'm not really sure where this is all heading at the moment as it's quite fresh. But as far as I know, atleast Piscatus and Aftonbladet are protected from privacy invasion laws under journalistic research laws. They're allowed to hold a lot of information about people, whether or not that applies in this case I don't know. But as said, all the hacks would have been done atleats five years ago, so although obtained illegally it would appear that the information is now allowed to be used freely by Aftonbladet without any legal complications.

Edited by Looket on Thursday 12th February 17:20

[Looket]

BrabusMog said:

Interestingly enough, my girlfriend mentioned Flashback and said she would never post there but enjoys reading it "even if people do talks about murders and stuff like that".

People talk about literally everything.

Do a Google Translate and see: https://www.flashback.org/

flyingvisit said:

It's my understanding that Swedish cities have serious issues with (mainly) Muslim immigrants. Nothing serious, just ghettos, gang rape, that sort of thing. You know, the usual. And NO dissent is allowed.

I suspect (alright, I know) that Google will provide all the gory details.

Yep, nothing serious. It's also a complete coincidence that Malmö, the third largest city with 41% of its population being of a foreign background (the majority of which are from the Middle East and the Horn of Africa) is the bomb capital of Europe. Nothing to see here!

[Looket]

BrabusMog said:

Yet everyone in Sweden loves Zlatan...

Ah, yes, that old chestnut.

According to the media we get a few hundred thousand new Zlatans every year. Watch out world, Sweden will soon be the new football superpower!

Finlandia said:

Politicians choose to look the other way

I was waiting for you to post! I agree with what you say but feel that perhaps what I've quoted is putting it a bit mildly considering Örebro (a small university town) wants to reward returning IS warriors with therapy and a tax-funded job.

Edited by Looket on Thursday 12th February 18:15

[Looket]

With regards to Jante etc, my view of it all is that whereas it does definitely play a smaller role in society these days, the ghost of Jante is still there. What's happened is that a hundred years of social repression and 20 years of relative liberalisation has created an incredibly anxious generation of social climbers. Years ago I read a story about Japan - the sheer amount of people in Tokyo on similar incomes and... well, quite frankly with similar lives, is what has caused the fashion scene over there to completely flip out due to peoples' desire to differentiate themselves. It's the same over here. There is a ridiculous amount of anxiety about where to live, what clothes to wear, what pillows to have on the couch (Lexington, btw), what car to drive etc. You want people to just KNOW and give you a quiet nod, you want to make a statement, but you don't want to be in their faces about it or appear boastful. Jante, but not. If that makes sense? House in Täby, some fine threads from som obscure shop in 'Milaaaaaan' baby, couple of Lexington trinkets dotted around the gaff and something new and shiny (and un-Volvo) on the drive and you've got it made. Except you want to live in Danderyd.

That is how I see things in the larger cities and people of my generation, whereas of course older generations and smaller places are a lot more entrenched in the more traditional sense of Jante.

Quality of life wise, it's horses for courses. During my stint in the UK I certainly didn't feel worse off. The only thing that irked me was the lack of nature. Or rather, the lack of nature without about half a million other people hoping to catch a nice and relaxing stroll through the woods. Apart from that, taxes are lower, income potential far greater, and should you wish to rent you don't have to stand in a housing queue for the best part of half a century (true story). In Stockholm for instance, people put their kids on the queue as soon as they're born in the hope that by the time they're in their early 20s they'll get a place to rent in a decent suburb. To rent in the actual city you need a.) deeeeeeep pockets to buy a contract on the grey market, b.) a house in an attractive area that you'd willing to exchange for a rental flat or c.) several decades worth of queue time.

Outside of the larger cities it's true that properties are much cheaper and rentals are more of a possibility, but then again jobs are scarcer and incomes lower. Yet energy prices are sky high (long winter, electric-only heating) and distances are bloody long with no public transport to speak of. Food in the sticks is more expensive than in the cities and most certainly more expensive than in the UK. Similarly, cars are nowhere near as cheap.

Regardless, I believe Swedes are the most indebted people in Europe, so although things may appear rosy things can easily and rather hastily change for the worse. To put it mildly.

Edited by Looket on Friday 13th February 13:10

[Looket]

Finlandia said:

And if you happen to live in Danderyd, you really would prefer that 10 room apartment in Gamla Stan.

Where does it end?

10 room apt in Gamla Stan > entire floor of a building in Östermalm > house in Djurgården > ????

[Looket]

Finlandia said:

Drottningholm?

Anyway, Sweden is a nice enough place, but something needs to change or we will see real trouble in the years to come.



Oh, and as a complete side story, what really irks me with many Swedes is their besserwisser, know-it-all-better-than-anyone-else attitude.

Quite. Don't wish to derail the thread too much - we do have some rather serious issues here and the future does look a bit bleak unless something drastic happens. Not sure what that would be though. There is a distinct feeling in the air that the current political and medial landscape is on it's deathbed and that the map is being completely rewritten as we speak - but the question is where do we go from there? The harm has been done, and I for one can't help to wonder whether it's a bit too little a bit too late.

Brabus - I wish!

[Looket]

I said there was change in the air... well, this just in: http://www.expressen.se/ledare/ann-charlotte-marte...

She has been what you would call a 'vocal opponent' (note: she writes for Expressen which as per OP worked with Researchgruppen in 2013) of anything remotely 'racist'. Now, she has apparently seen the light. This is completely unheard of, there have been rumblings of sobriety in the last few months but this is something quite special. I'm genuinely stunned.

The title is 'I am the opinion corridor', and it is basically a letter of apology to the Swedish public. She realises she has been an integral part of a movement that has severely and quite possibly permanently eroded a large part of the basis of a functioning democracy.

Google translate it. It's not perfect but it'll do donkey, it'll do.

Edited by Looket on Friday 13th February 17:43

[Looket]

Foppo said:

Are you saying that any opinion about immigration is not allowed in Sweden? I would say balks to that get out if you feel uncomfortable.

Of course not. You're perfectly free to express the right opinion.

---

The debates about immigration have been largely confined to anonymous forums such as Flashback. People don't want to air opinions in public - although perfectly sane and acceptable in any other country in the world - because of the risk of a.) becoming a social pariah, b.) losing their jobs and c.) threats of violence by various leftist groups. The Sweden Democrats got 13% in the general election after years of persecution and the debate seems to have started to regain some sense of sanity after that. But it's all very infected still.

Personally, I'm not uncomfortable. I'm fking angry.

[Looket]

Finlandia said:

It's a start, still got a very long way to go, a very, very long way. We need to halt everything, sort the domestic issues from the ground up, build the country again, I don't see that happening, too many high up with very different views.

I'd agree. The only viable way out that I can see is that as a country, we just start over from scratch. Where's the restart button?

Without wishing to don my tinfoil hat, I have a fairly strong suspicion that's the masterplan as penned my messrs Reinfeldt and Borg; arm the left of this country with their own bullcrap, and they'll somehow manage to shoot themselves. The welfare state in its current form simply cannot continue, and I'm quite certain we'll be seeing the end of the famous 'Swedish way' soon enough. Sweden 2.0 here we come!

[Looket]

Finlandia said:

I don't know what to think of Reinfeldt, he seemed good from the start but somewhere along the line he lost the plot. Remember the interview with the Danish Politiken, where he said:

– Jag flyger ofta över den svenska landsbygden. Det finns oändliga fält och skogar. Den som hävdar att landet är fullt måste visa var det är fullt, säger han till tidningen.

- I often fly over the Swedish countryside. There are endless fields and forests. Anyone who claims that the country is full must show where it's full, he tells the magazine.

In my opinion, Reinfeldt is perhaps the 'best' Swedish politician in modern history in so much that he knew exactly how to manipulate the press and the public into submission. It's no secret that in his youth he was a fairly staunch libertarian of some description, and my experience in the matter (I'm one) tells me that such views don't tend to change too much with age. Certainly not to the extent that his would've had to have done.

Instead, I'm fairly certain that he made the correct analysis that Sweden will never become 'less socialist' by general election. The overwhelming majority of people will simply never vote for anything but a lukewarm version of social democracy of some kind.

Solution?

Get into power, lower taxes, make sure Joe Public won't ever accept a return to 60%+ tax rates, and lastly the coup de grace itself - permanently and irreversibly overwhelm the welfare system by using the leftist rhetoric against itself. Done.

Anyway, my take on comments such as the above are that they are just carefully worded ploys to twist the already absurd debate climate up a notch. Who could possibly object to such ludicrous commentary without somehow exposing themselves as racists? And so it is digested and lastly accepted without much ado - and thus the public discourse climbs even further up the mental scale on its course to inevitable self-destruction.

Edited by Looket on Friday 13th February 19:35

[Looket]

Finlandia said:

Maybe, but he was playing high stakes, ultimately ruining the country and losing the election.

Well personally I hate the barsteward for what he's done to the country but credit where credit is due - he knew exactly which buttons to push to get the media and general discourse where he wanted it. I don't think anyone can possibly say something like that and actually mean it other than as a twisted means of buying time in an even more twisted environment.

In my mind, he managed to turn the media into a subversive instrument in so much that it has almost single-handedly divided the country into incredibly staunch pro- and anti-immigration camps with very little overlap but a lot of antagonism between them. The uniquely Nordic brand of consensus seeking common discourse is nowhere to be seen and I for one am sure it's a thing of the past in Sweden. THAT is what has facilitated the 'Swedish model' of high taxes and a large welfare state, but what we see now is that people simply don't want to contribute. They have grown used to lower taxes and weary of a society that in one way or another offends them; men tired of feminazis, women tired of patriarchal hierarchies, people tired of immigrants, people tired of racists. Everyone has one reason or another to feel strongly dissenting of the 'powers that be' whatever they may be. Freddy says good luck trying to return to the ultra-high tax regime in that environment - it simply doesn't have the support of the common man anymore. Add to that a potential property bubble disaster and a welfare system that is quickly crumbling under its own weight and the only outcome is a complete reboot that'll boil down to one thing and one thing only: no mo' money baby. The welfare state is a thing of the past no matter how you look at it.

I struggle to find other even remotely logical explanations to most of his lunacy - barring actual lunacy. Regardless, I doubt in his own mind he 'lost' anything. Given the December agreement he has just armed the left with the very gun they'll use to commit their own suicide. It doesn't matter if his own party gets annihilated in the process, as it'll be superfluous in a world where a minimal government (by today's standards) is the only realistic option anyway.

Edited by Looket on Sunday 15th February 11:26

[Looket]

Finlandia said:

You have a point there, and definitely on the quoted bit.
Was that the plan from the very beginning, or was it something that grew in his mind as the axe was swaying from the leftist camps, remember the difficulties to form a government and appoint ministers during the first period. Later on the local councils (the left leaning ones) did everything they could to hinder and mess up the new legislations brought in.

Who knows, but the insanity seemed to definitely kick up a gear after he went to bed with the Green Party. But by then, a lot of the groundwork in the form of lower taxes was already done. Back in the very early Alliance days I used to think that his goal was to slowly and democratically bring the country as close as possible in line with the ideals of his youth. Either that was never the plan, or something burst along the way and the realisation that it would never be possible via general election hit him like a tonne of bricks and so we are where we are. Or he was just a reasonably well-spoken village idiot whose actions lead to completely accidental yet suspiciously comfortable (for him) consequences.

[Looket]

So in the past six months the new government has managed to ps off Israel, the Russians and pretty much the entire Muslim community. Diplomatic relations are at an all-time low.

Quite an achievement, actually. Only 3.5 years to go.

[Looket]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

I have had a few days in Stockholm this week, have not been there in 12 or so months. A lovely city, but the number of beggars out on the street, sleeping rough was remarkable. It must be a new phenomena, because I do not remember them being there on my last trip. What is going on ?

'EU-migrants'.

JB! said:

Holy crap:

http://10news.dk/malmo-sweden-after-36-bombs-in-20...

http://cphpost.dk/news/bomb-attack-and-shooting-la...

Thats mental.

Edited by JB! on Wednesday 11th March 14:29

I've said it before but I'll say it again - Malmö is the official bomb capital of Europe.

Funnily enough it is also the spiritual home of lentil-munching Guardianistas. As a city it's a 30-year old social experiment in all things 'progressive' and socialist. Incidentally it also runs a £400m annual budget deficit.

[Looket]

xjsdriver said:

It's just a case of you get what you pay for....they pay a bit more in tax....and quite rightly get more in the way of social care - from cradle to grave (including the cost of burial).......

I've no children so not entirely sure how it all works, but if your brother lives in Malmö I'm fairly certain he'll be paying nursery fees. Similarly, funerals are anything but free.

The entire education system is by any possible definition a total disaster, the healthcare system is hugely overburdened and people are either dying waiting for treatment or paying through their noses to skip the queues (unless they've seen the light and got themselves a private insurance), municipalities are increasingly starting to charge for ambulance trips, infrastructure is crumbling and toll roads/bridges are seemingly the way forward, national defence is non-existent and the police are a bit of a joke.

Yesterday our cupid stunt of a finance minister declared that tax hikes are coming in order to finance investments in said non-existent national defence (a good idea seeing as our feminist foreign policy stance seems to have upset Russia). A whopping £300m over 2016-2020! Meanwhile, the Migration Board alone (small fry in the grand scheme of immigration costs) will burn a £15B-sized hole in the budget during the same period.

Not really what I'd call value for money.

[Looket]

So, I suppose I should say something about the latest in a never-ending cycle of shootings between ethnic Swe... oh wait. But I won't, because yawn.

Instead I'm going to laugh at our Dear Leader who has generously gifted us a bit of pure comedy gold:

https://www.facebook.com/stefanlofven/photos/a.649...

Mr. Blobfish says:

'Today I visited a care home for orphaned refugee children. The youngsters told me about their daily lives and ambitions for the future - which included programmers and CEOs. We spoke a lot about the importance of education, experience and starting work. An incredibly driven gang with a lot to contribute!'

Don't your hearts just bleed? Yes, mine too - to the tune of £300 a day per orphan.

In other news, this is the new Swedish ID card standard:

[Looket]

Jobless, penniless, still living in your mum's basement and in need of some top-notch healthcare?

Not to worry, the good people of Stockholm will sort you out. The only condition is that you will have to have killed, slaughtered and beheaded your way through half of the Middle East first.

http://www.wnd.com/2015/05/swedens-welfare-bonanza...
http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/14/rewarding-jihad...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10488...

Poor things must be suffering from PTSD having raped and butchered all those little girls.

The Minister of Justice recently declared that companies without at least 40% women on their boards should be forcefully dissolved. I can see how they could easily change that and instead earmark said board memberships to our homecoming heroes. Jihadi John - CEO, anyone? Productivity in the work place would go through the roof!

Once again, the socialists have outdone themselves. Stellar work.

EDIT: Excuse the sources, they are the only English ones I could find.

Edited by Looket on Wednesday 20th May 22:42

Edited by Looket on Wednesday 20th May 22:44

[Looket]

BrabusMog said:

So there's money for terrorists in Sweden but no money in the Kommun my girlfriend lives in to pay for her sister to finish her training in dementia care and she will have to leave the job she can do really well in August, as she doesn't have the qualification? What a joke.

The 'barn is empty' as according to the minister of finance. Reinfeldt said before the election that there'd be no room for reform in the coming years due to spiralling immigration costs.

Halb said:

They have a large majority? When is the next election?
Swedes use the term 'piekey'? ??

Minority government. 37% after the election, although currently polling significantly below that. In the words of the PM though, who cares about polls. See more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Swedish_governme...

The term is 'zigenare' and is apparently not very PC these days.

[Looket]

Halb said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_par...

Mixed bag.

Scandies, where do you see your people going? What will happen at the next election?

Is private enterprise stymied over there? What are the large reasons for the high GDP per capita?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_...

If the 'December agreement' survives then we'll see more of the same until 2022 regardless of who wins the next election. Either way, the left is finished. The grave they've unwittingly dug for themselves is quite impressive - both social cohesion and the rather unique consensus culture that have historically facilitated the high tax regime have been eroded beyond oblivion. The working classes are no longer Labour men but rampant Tories to put it in UK terms.

Add to that the fact that there's simply no money left to sustain the welfare state. I can't remember the exact figures but I seem to recall that to just in order to maintain the status quo in terms of rapidly crumbling welfare services, municipal income taxes would need to rise by round about 15% by 2030. I pay 30.75% where I live, and that's before state income taxes kick in. I don't think I'm exaggerating if I say that there's no fking way people will tolerate that in this day and age.

Consequently, in the next decade or so the left will be dead and buried alongside the welfare state.