Je Suis Billy Boy - Free Speech in the UK

[Hugo a Gogo]

interesting article
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/je-su...

about this case:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-3...

4 months jail for signing a song is ludicrous, however odious you find the words, and the fact that they are talking about jail for singing 'Rule Britannia' or even 'aggresively blessing yourself' is simply unbelievable

this could only ever be tolerated against football fans, after all everyone knows they are all sub-human

[Hugo a Gogo]

Thorodin said:

Don't know what the fuss is about. The 'song' wasn't. A song, that is. In the not too distant past it was a rallying cry to arms, a reveille, a clarion call to sectarian murders and torture. In the context of which this 'offence' took place it was designed to provoke a violent reaction from opposing 'fans' and under the law was prohibited. Relations between religious sects (however phoney that conflict may be) are again under great stress and people are running scared about a resurgence of previous social breakdown.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to and these mindless moronic football fans are no exception. Such examples of naked tribalism are thankfully no longer tolerated and football, if there are any 'sporting' people left in the game, will the better for it when such people are banned. If the first line contained any reference to ethnic origin there wouldn't have been any doubt about it being disgraceful. The freedom to associate and express oneself carries with it that other blessing - responsibility.

how about singing 'God Save the Queen'? same things apply
how about 'The Marseillaise'? or 'Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit' or indeed Reveille as you mention


or without the singing; how about the calls for murder and terrorism shouted in the streets that have nothing to do with football and everything to do with actual murder and terrorism?

but that's all 'whataboutery'

that fact is, such a law would never be passed, or enforced, if it wasn't aimed at football fans only

[Hugo a Gogo]

I went to the England Scotland game at Wembley a while ago, a fat bloke (in fact, this renowned idiot http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/miscellaneous/60581... was singing it all through the first half, directed at the Scots fans

Police and stewards ignored it

[Hugo a Gogo]

A massive proportion of football chants are designed to annoy the opposition

maybe jail everyone for singing anything other than 'well played chaps, and a round of applause for the plucky losers'

are you saying Celtic fans are such uncontrollable beasts that they can't help stabbing someone after hearing those words? or they will unleash an 'aggressive blessing' symbol, which will in turn enrage the previously peaceful Rangers beasts into murder?

[Hugo a Gogo]

or jailing French cartoonists, if not shooting them

[Hugo a Gogo]

what benefit to the French cartoons?

what benefit to Clarkson's 'slope' gag?

would anyone suggest putting them in jail?

similar to the dhead who tweeted some crap digs about the Glasgow bin lorry - he was an offensive idiot, but jail?

[Hugo a Gogo]

Countdown said:

If either Clarkson or the French cartoonists were involved in the amount of bigotry/hatred shown at "Old Firm" games then I think there would be a strong case for penalising them as well. One person making snide remarks is different to 30,000 people screaming obscenities IMO

It's 2015 - surely we've outgrown this?

Did he get sent to jail for hating someone, or for being a bigot? Or was he sent to jail as a representative of 30,000 others?
Why just him?

[Hugo a Gogo]

xjsdriver said:

williamp said:

If they knew the lyrics if La Marseillaise, everyone singing it would havd to be arrested!

Just to help out here are the lyrics in English, nowhere does it discriminate about those of a different religion in order to persecute. For avoidance of doubt I'm a protestant by birth, these days I'm an atheist - who no longer believes in any form of imaginary friend in the sky......

La Marseillaise - English lyrics

tell me where the Billy Boys mentions religion (hint: fenian doesn't mean catholic)

some nowadays seem to think Republicanism and Catholicism are one and the same, but it was never the case in the old days

[Hugo a Gogo]

simoid said:

It really is a strange kettle of fish. I dont even know what's illegal.

The song? The tune? The words? Or is it only if you choose all three? And it has to be at/on the way to the football?

Can't get my head around it tbh. Not like we can start banning the word "Fenian" - it's used by the blue and green alike.

what's banned is whatever 'they' feel like
ie, Rule Britannia, blessing oneself
presumably wearing a blue or a green and white shirt will be next

[Hugo a Gogo]

xjsdriver said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

tell me where the Billy Boys mentions religion (hint: fenian doesn't mean catholic)

some nowadays seem to think Republicanism and Catholicism are one and the same, but it was never the case in the old days

We've already established that Fenian, although not specifically a derogatory term for catholics, is used by sectarian bigots as a derogatory term for catholics. To deny this, is either a massive misunderstanding on your part, or vile, apologist behaviour - which is it in your case?

it's used as a term for celtic fans and or irish republicans, who are seen as all being catholics
mainly hating catholics for being celtic fans, not hating celtic fans for being catholic

is it as derogatory as when the celtic fans call themselves fenians? or as bad as 'hun'? or 'tim'? or 'billy boy'?

[Hugo a Gogo]

and to think I hummed along to it at the Scotland game in Park du Prince in 2007

I hang my head now...

[Hugo a Gogo]

Countdown said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

what's banned is whatever 'they' feel like
ie, Rule Britannia, blessing oneself
presumably wearing a blue or a green and white shirt will be next

"They" seem to represent the democratic majority. One of the downsides of living in a democracy is when there is more of "them" than "you".

they don't seem to represent the majority to me

also, google 'the tyranny of the majority' for me please

The point of the post was; what is banned is vague and ill-defined - and they don't seem to have had a public referendum on 'aggressive blessing' or 'Rule Britannia' that I remember

[Hugo a Gogo]

xjsdriver said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

what's banned is whatever 'they' feel like
ie, Rule Britannia, blessing oneself
presumably wearing a blue or a green and white shirt will be next

Now you are simply being obtuse, and I'd suggest you look up the meaning of cross party support. Here's a clue it involved support from your beloved Tories in Scotland too. "They" voted for it too.

my beloved tories? where the hell do you get that from?

xjsdriver said:

It depends on who uses thge word and in what context - we've already gone over this. But as usual if it's something the majority don't like on here, the view gets shouted down, instead of being debated like grown ups. To simplify it - just for you, it's a bit like black people being able to use the "N" word with impunity - but anyone WHITE can't

I think you've got me mixed up with someone VERY different

so which words there are offensive? it depends who and where and when?

"i can't define it, but I know it if I see it" that kind of thing?

Edited by Hugo a Gogo on Wednesday 18th March 21:39

[Hugo a Gogo]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/...

the almost comical "ooh ah up the 'RA" is apparently the only offensive song sung en masse by the fenians sorry, the Celtic fans

[Hugo a Gogo]

Billy Boy clearly is a vile sectarian insult aimed at protestants

hate crime, take him down

[Hugo a Gogo]

xRIEx said:

fk me, a law that legislates against hated and terrorism is a bad thing?! That 'journalist' is mental.

it doesn't legislate against terrorism, and 'football hatred' is not 'religious hatred'

[Hugo a Gogo]

glazbagun said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

it doesn't legislate against terrorism, and 'football hatred' is not 'religious hatred'

So you're saying there's no religious hatred at Old Firm games?

I'm saying I don't know how many, if any, actually just hate Catholics and Catholicism as well as following Rangers, or how many just sing and shout these things because 'it's what they do' at Rangers games

How much is hatred of Irish republicanism, how much is hatred of the Irish and those of Irish backgrounds, how much is 'just' hatred of the rival team, their supporters, and anything they seem to support

I don't know why people sing these songs, just as I don't know why the fat bloke I mentioned earlier was singing it to me at an England Scotland game, was it because of hate for catholics?

[Hugo a Gogo]

xRIEx said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

xRIEx said:

fk me, a law that legislates against hated and terrorism is a bad thing?! That 'journalist' is mental.

it doesn't legislate against terrorism, and 'football hatred' is not 'religious hatred'

Are football hatred and religious hatred mutually exclusive?

Is racial hatred not racial hatred when it occurs in the context of a football match? Or the context of a French subway? Same for homophobia? Sometimes I think football fans believe there are different rules for them as long as they are acting as one mob rather than one individual.

is it racial hatred if you say you hate a team's fans?

for example, is it anti-Semitic to hate Spurs fans?

[Hugo a Gogo]

simoid said:

Wrathalanche said:

In my 30 years of life in the West coast of Scotland (spent entirely on the outside of football grounds) I have almost never heard the song sang past the "know us by our noise" line. I suspect though that to enforce this law, the police would lift anyone just for singing the "HELLO, HELLO" part of it, before they get the chance to finish.

So I'd mirror Simoid's question: what part of the song is illegal? What if someone was to replace the line with "up to our knees in kitten love"? Has a crime still been commited? If Rangers fans all agreed to sing this version in the future, would the song become acceptable?

Radio 1 play songs that could be considered by some to be offensive all day long. They just blank or substitute out the upsetting words, and seem to get away with it.

"HELLO! HELLO!"

*officer slaps cuffs on*

"But officer, I was on the phone to my hard-of-hearing grandmother..."

"Come with me Mr Glitter, now you're really in trouble!"

[Hugo a Gogo]

see, that's mental

how can they tolerate that sort of crap, whilst jailing stupid neds for singing