40 year old killing but where is the balance?
Discussion
So I read with interest that Dennis Hutchings, 73, has been in court and charged with attempted murder for the 1974 shooting of John Cunningham in NI.
Mr Cunningham had learning difficulties and ran from a patrol.
Not really commenting on the right or wrong of this case but rather, where are the court cases against the IRA men and woman from 40 years ago?
Smacks of double standards, PC horse crap and the usual two rule system!
Mr Cunningham had learning difficulties and ran from a patrol.
Not really commenting on the right or wrong of this case but rather, where are the court cases against the IRA men and woman from 40 years ago?
Smacks of double standards, PC horse crap and the usual two rule system!
gruffalo said:
Well did you really expect better?
TBH really.Kaj91 said:
Surprised that he has only been charged with attempted murder in a case where the victim died, but I don't know the ins and out of this particular case.
There are a number of ongoing cases against paramilitaries from both sides.
Care to name them?There are a number of ongoing cases against paramilitaries from both sides.
Tannedbaldhead said:
The balance was that should a terrorist have been known to have killed someone at the time he would have either have had to go on the run or would have been apprehended, faced trial and if sufficient evidence was brought to bear convicted.
The British were the the implimenters of the rule of law. As such their security forces had a duty to uphold and adhear to the letter of the law. Where they didn't they legitimised the actions of those who opposed them. As such every RUC man on Soldier who pulled a crowd of boys off a bus put them in stress positions and punched them in their stomachs and kidneys in the hope the kids would give up schoolyard gossip as to who's big brothers and cousins were players, shat in terraced houses where doors were left open, interned innocent men and shot unarmed and innocent men should have been charged and convicted of crimes. In most cases they didn't.
Hmmmmm! The British were the the implimenters of the rule of law. As such their security forces had a duty to uphold and adhear to the letter of the law. Where they didn't they legitimised the actions of those who opposed them. As such every RUC man on Soldier who pulled a crowd of boys off a bus put them in stress positions and punched them in their stomachs and kidneys in the hope the kids would give up schoolyard gossip as to who's big brothers and cousins were players, shat in terraced houses where doors were left open, interned innocent men and shot unarmed and innocent men should have been charged and convicted of crimes. In most cases they didn't.
Rather a stress position than a beating, sexual abuse, knee capping or execution but something tells me there is zero point in discussing this with you.
Rovinghawk said:
Grumfutock said:
Hmmmmm!
Rather a stress position than a beating, sexual abuse, knee capping or execution but something tells me there is zero point in discussing this with you.
I'd have to take his side in this, tbh- if we want to scream for justice then we have to be squeaky clean ourselves. If not then surely both sides should be punished for all of their transgressions?Rather a stress position than a beating, sexual abuse, knee capping or execution but something tells me there is zero point in discussing this with you.
Ex IRA, INLA, PIRA get nice letters saying you are untouchable. Soldiers get taken to court 40 years after the event!
Or are we to believe that all of a sudden there is new evidence? What's next, court cases for WW2 bomber crews for war crimes?
Kaj91 said:
Grumfutock said:
What's next, court cases for WW2 bomber crews for war crimes?
Are you admitting that what went on in the north of Ireland was a war?The Provo's called it a war and I know the soldiers couldn't give a toss what tag the politicians put on it. You fight and people get killed, then it is a war.
Kaj91 said:
Sixty-seven year old Michael Burns from north Belfast has been charged in connection to offences from 1977.
Sean Hughes from Dromintee and Padraig Wilson are before the courts on membership and other charges, offences from the pre ceasefire era, but only recently charged. Wilson was the O.C. in Long Kesh, Hughes was probably the most senior member and most deadly member of the Provisional movement.
Gerry McGeough has been charged and convicted of an attempted murder dating back to the 70s.
There is three off the top of my head, we won't go into yet another set up of Colin Duffy, who will probably end up serving the equivalent of a life sentence on remand.
There are cases involving loyalists who I wouldn't be familiar with, but yet again google will give you whatever answers your require. Of course we wouldn't be having this argument if an innocent man, with a learning disability hadn't been shot dead.
So the 1st and last have not gone to trial yet and likely wont.Sean Hughes from Dromintee and Padraig Wilson are before the courts on membership and other charges, offences from the pre ceasefire era, but only recently charged. Wilson was the O.C. in Long Kesh, Hughes was probably the most senior member and most deadly member of the Provisional movement.
Gerry McGeough has been charged and convicted of an attempted murder dating back to the 70s.
There is three off the top of my head, we won't go into yet another set up of Colin Duffy, who will probably end up serving the equivalent of a life sentence on remand.
There are cases involving loyalists who I wouldn't be familiar with, but yet again google will give you whatever answers your require. Of course we wouldn't be having this argument if an innocent man, with a learning disability hadn't been shot dead.
Sean Hughes and Padraig Wilson have not gone to trial and are for offenses POST peace deal.
Sorry but you have picked 3 piss poor examples. I suspect your sympathies may lay with the Murphy camp in Crossmaglen, a shame we cant get any convictions for Warrenpoint.
berlintaxi said:
Grumfutock said:
Kaj91 said:
Sixty-seven year old Michael Burns from north Belfast has been charged in connection to offences from 1977.
Sean Hughes from Dromintee and Padraig Wilson are before the courts on membership and other charges, offences from the pre ceasefire era, but only recently charged. Wilson was the O.C. in Long Kesh, Hughes was probably the most senior member and most deadly member of the Provisional movement.
Gerry McGeough has been charged and convicted of an attempted murder dating back to the 70s.
There is three off the top of my head, we won't go into yet another set up of Colin Duffy, who will probably end up serving the equivalent of a life sentence on remand.
There are cases involving loyalists who I wouldn't be familiar with, but yet again google will give you whatever answers your require. Of course we wouldn't be having this argument if an innocent man, with a learning disability hadn't been shot dead.
So the 1st and last have not gone to trial yet and likely wont.Sean Hughes from Dromintee and Padraig Wilson are before the courts on membership and other charges, offences from the pre ceasefire era, but only recently charged. Wilson was the O.C. in Long Kesh, Hughes was probably the most senior member and most deadly member of the Provisional movement.
Gerry McGeough has been charged and convicted of an attempted murder dating back to the 70s.
There is three off the top of my head, we won't go into yet another set up of Colin Duffy, who will probably end up serving the equivalent of a life sentence on remand.
There are cases involving loyalists who I wouldn't be familiar with, but yet again google will give you whatever answers your require. Of course we wouldn't be having this argument if an innocent man, with a learning disability hadn't been shot dead.
Sean Hughes and Padraig Wilson have not gone to trial and are for offenses POST peace deal.
Sorry but you have picked 3 piss poor examples. I suspect your sympathies may lay with the Murphy camp in Crossmaglen, a shame we cant get any convictions for Warrenpoint.
Would you not agree that this would appear to be a double standard?
Kaj91 said:
The only good thing ever to come out of Crossmaglen was the road, by Murphy I assume you mean "Slab", who I don't believe has ever lived in Cross, but we're splitting hairs here.
Warrenpoint, I assume you mean Narrow Water, as a military operation it was hard to fault, but these things happen in a so called war.
Indeedter and yes I mean Mr Murphy of Ballybinaby. I used Crossmaglen as a reference as most people will know it but not Ballybinaby. It is only 3 miles away after all.Warrenpoint, I assume you mean Narrow Water, as a military operation it was hard to fault, but these things happen in a so called war.
xjsdriver said:
It is my understanding that there were TWO sets of civilian protagonists on different sides (and that the British Army/Security Services were sent in to quell the disturbances and maintain peace). If a trained soldier oversteps the mark operationally - he should expect a Court Martial.
Same as happened recently to that Royal Marine who shot the Taliban fighter and ended up being put before a Court Martial, found guilty and jailed. End of. No fanfare. Job done!!!
That isn't in dispute if you read my original post. What is in dispute is that it is 40 years on and there would appear to be a different set of standards depending who you fought for!Same as happened recently to that Royal Marine who shot the Taliban fighter and ended up being put before a Court Martial, found guilty and jailed. End of. No fanfare. Job done!!!
No fanfare, job done!
Kaj91 said:
Grumfutock said:
I make no bones where my sympathies lie. I was an active participant for many years.
Thankfully your "participation" didn't shape the rest of your life, it could have left you very bitter and twisted. 
I am not bitter about my 9 years serving there. I am not bitter to the Provo's or the Loyalists, they did what they had to and fought for a cause they believed in.
I am bitter about the vast difference in the treatment of people. A terrorist kills in the 70's and nothing, zip zero is now done to bring him to justice. A soldier over steps the mark and he is hounded for it.
My complaint, just to be clear, is not that the soldier is prosecuted. If he crossed a line then he must be dealt with by the courts. However I would like to see the same energy expended, the same political desire and the same effort put into bringing terrorists to trial as it would appear that they have been pardoned.
Maybe you see it different?
Kaj91 said:
Maybe I do see it differently.
I believe that anyone who kills an innocent man, a man with a mental age of a six year old child, a man who had a fear of anyone in uniform, should face justice. No matter what side the killer represents.
It seems that you see John Pat Cunningham as a legitimate target, even though you will carefully choose your words carefully not to say that openly.
Terrorists on both sides are before the courts for crimes committed in the past, a fact you choose to ignore because it doesn't suit your agenda. If we are to continue with the pursuit of justice then we have to hope that more former soldiers and especially RUC officers come before the courts as well. There were victims on all sides, they all, equally, deserve justice.
Do you even read other peoples posts? Where the hell have I said he is a legitimate target? Even eluded to it?I believe that anyone who kills an innocent man, a man with a mental age of a six year old child, a man who had a fear of anyone in uniform, should face justice. No matter what side the killer represents.
It seems that you see John Pat Cunningham as a legitimate target, even though you will carefully choose your words carefully not to say that openly.
Terrorists on both sides are before the courts for crimes committed in the past, a fact you choose to ignore because it doesn't suit your agenda. If we are to continue with the pursuit of justice then we have to hope that more former soldiers and especially RUC officers come before the courts as well. There were victims on all sides, they all, equally, deserve justice.
And once again please show this 'terrorist in court' from pre peace deal! Where are they? You keep reffering to them and the 3 examples you posted were shot down in flames. So come on, fez up!
Tannedbaldhead said:
Nothing is being done now however back in the day terrorists who killed were pursued, captured, tried, convicted and spent many years in Long Kesh. Many members of the security services who shot someone without justification didn't.
Northern Ireland is coming to a tricky point. The loyalist majority is no more, demographics have a Nationalist population as a majority as an inevitability in due course. If this Nationalist majority vote NI into a United Ireland it will be a disaster (you know the place so you know how hard core loyalists will react).
To stop this we need to implement policies in NI that will placate moderate pragmatic Nationalists to an extent where they are happy to remain in the Union. This will mean Orange Walks will become more and more limited in the areas they can access, Union Jacks will become fewer and further between, the acceptance that guys who got away with stuff pre cease-fire and have kept their noses clean since will not face justice and a few cops and soldiers who slotted and thumped people, that to be fair really they shouldn't have, will spend some time in the pokey. Whilst placating this new Nationalist majority great care will have to be taken not to go too far and noise up the Loyalists. It wont be easy getting such a balancing act right.
You're an old soldier. You know the score and you know the place. Hold your nose accept it, keep the peace and live with the fact that a few old soldiers are going to have to answer for historic crimes they have committed.
I agree 100%, as I have already stated, that if a soldier or policeman committed a crime then they should answer. All I ask is that the other side is subject to the same rules and scrutiny.Northern Ireland is coming to a tricky point. The loyalist majority is no more, demographics have a Nationalist population as a majority as an inevitability in due course. If this Nationalist majority vote NI into a United Ireland it will be a disaster (you know the place so you know how hard core loyalists will react).
To stop this we need to implement policies in NI that will placate moderate pragmatic Nationalists to an extent where they are happy to remain in the Union. This will mean Orange Walks will become more and more limited in the areas they can access, Union Jacks will become fewer and further between, the acceptance that guys who got away with stuff pre cease-fire and have kept their noses clean since will not face justice and a few cops and soldiers who slotted and thumped people, that to be fair really they shouldn't have, will spend some time in the pokey. Whilst placating this new Nationalist majority great care will have to be taken not to go too far and noise up the Loyalists. It wont be easy getting such a balancing act right.
You're an old soldier. You know the score and you know the place. Hold your nose accept it, keep the peace and live with the fact that a few old soldiers are going to have to answer for historic crimes they have committed.
Where is the drive to find the Warrenpoint bombers? A great shame the same rules do not apply to ALL.
As for RUC etc. not being scrutinized, Lee Clegg? Charlie McCormick? John Weir? Billy McCaughey? Laurence Tate? If you don't know then learn. Plenty that crossed the line were and are prosecuted and again, rightly so.
Kaj91 said:
Clegg was released well before the good friday agreement. Personally I don't agree with the GFA or the early releases, but it was what society needed at the time.
Maybe you should seek help, at a guess you seem to be suffering from some form of PTSD. All that bitterness can't be good for you, let it go. Then again maybe you are carrying around a lot of guilt.
I've never been blinded by anything, certainly not a worthless flag, you only seem to be blinded by your own bigotry and prejudices. You can't run away from your conscience.
WOW you are now a fully qualified psychiatrist as well a historian and political expert. This is only surpassed by your terminal republicanism, are you Gerry Adams in disguise? Maybe you should seek help, at a guess you seem to be suffering from some form of PTSD. All that bitterness can't be good for you, let it go. Then again maybe you are carrying around a lot of guilt.
I've never been blinded by anything, certainly not a worthless flag, you only seem to be blinded by your own bigotry and prejudices. You can't run away from your conscience.
Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 27th April 07:57
Kaj91 said:
Grumfutock said:
WOW you are now a fully qualified psychiatrist as well a historian and political expert. This is only surpassed by your terminal republicanism, are you Gerry Adams in disguise?
I'm not yet fully qualified. I'm Gerry without the beard.Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 27th April 07:57
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