Islamic Reformation
Discussion
Looking at a number of other threads on here it seems quite obvious that there's huge concern about Islam. Not just from skinheads and those who don't like anyone different, but from moderate people who don't want to live along side ever growing numbers of ever more radical Muslims. And it's not really hard to see why with the ongoing terror campaigns and wars at just about every border between the Islamic world and anyone else.
Of course Christianity, Judaism and most religions have had their fair share of this over the centuries. What strikes me about Islam is that it's never had a reformation. Muslim worshippers world over still learn to Quran in Arabic, giving their immans and preachers huge power. Piety still seems to be equated with a very literal interpretation of the Quran. In Islamic law apostasy is still a great sin, usually punishable by death and relatively few Muslims seem to strongly disagree with this even if they themselves wouldn't enforce it. It seems that unbelievers are still seen as somehow lacking, to be converted or pitied, rather than people who have made a different choice that they must square with their conscience as individuals.
Is it possible to have an Islamic reformation? To demystify it and make a version which is explicitly able to live alongside other religions without problems? Not just moderated to do so out of necessity.
Is there such a movement? It looks like it was attempted in Turkey under Ataturk and for various reasons failed, and that country is now reverting to more strident Islam.
It seems that if not, then it's on a massive collision course with the rest of the world one way or another.
Of course Christianity, Judaism and most religions have had their fair share of this over the centuries. What strikes me about Islam is that it's never had a reformation. Muslim worshippers world over still learn to Quran in Arabic, giving their immans and preachers huge power. Piety still seems to be equated with a very literal interpretation of the Quran. In Islamic law apostasy is still a great sin, usually punishable by death and relatively few Muslims seem to strongly disagree with this even if they themselves wouldn't enforce it. It seems that unbelievers are still seen as somehow lacking, to be converted or pitied, rather than people who have made a different choice that they must square with their conscience as individuals.
Is it possible to have an Islamic reformation? To demystify it and make a version which is explicitly able to live alongside other religions without problems? Not just moderated to do so out of necessity.
Is there such a movement? It looks like it was attempted in Turkey under Ataturk and for various reasons failed, and that country is now reverting to more strident Islam.
It seems that if not, then it's on a massive collision course with the rest of the world one way or another.
stovey
It needs it because it is currently a scourge everywhere it is a significant force at all. Whether FGM, brutal "justice" and internal war with it's fellow Muslims, oppression of non-Muslims in Africa, insurgency in Sri Lanka or Thailand and elsewhere or terrorist attacks against the west in a seemingly endless campaign with no real end in sight.
Where does Islam peacefully co-exist with other religions? As I see it, it's generally only when they're a small minority.
Twig
That's not quite true. Both zero and algebra pre-date Islam by centuries, in ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Greece and Persia. Arab scholars did preserve and enhance it during the Golden Age, as "Christians" did during the enlightenment. I would be very surprised if that didn't indicate an age of a more moderate and tolerant Islam than the version we currently have. Islamic scholar Omar Khayyam's admirable love of wine points that way too. That doesn't stop it being twisted by genocidal maniacs or prevent it from being the greatest threat to civilisation and progress across huge swathes of the world.
Talking about "the majority" of any country, religion, race or other group is never the whole story. The majority of Germans probably never really actively wanted to wipe out the Jews or take over the world. The majority of Russians never wanted to subject the world to their weird interpretation of totalitarian communism. The majority of Muslims probably don't want to convert or subjugate the whole world to Sharia law and convert or subjugate all the infidels, but that does seem to be a central part of most current interpretations of their creed, and the ongoing jihad is a very real phenomenon bringing death and misery to millions of people.
It needs it because it is currently a scourge everywhere it is a significant force at all. Whether FGM, brutal "justice" and internal war with it's fellow Muslims, oppression of non-Muslims in Africa, insurgency in Sri Lanka or Thailand and elsewhere or terrorist attacks against the west in a seemingly endless campaign with no real end in sight.
Where does Islam peacefully co-exist with other religions? As I see it, it's generally only when they're a small minority.
Twig
That's not quite true. Both zero and algebra pre-date Islam by centuries, in ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Greece and Persia. Arab scholars did preserve and enhance it during the Golden Age, as "Christians" did during the enlightenment. I would be very surprised if that didn't indicate an age of a more moderate and tolerant Islam than the version we currently have. Islamic scholar Omar Khayyam's admirable love of wine points that way too. That doesn't stop it being twisted by genocidal maniacs or prevent it from being the greatest threat to civilisation and progress across huge swathes of the world.
Talking about "the majority" of any country, religion, race or other group is never the whole story. The majority of Germans probably never really actively wanted to wipe out the Jews or take over the world. The majority of Russians never wanted to subject the world to their weird interpretation of totalitarian communism. The majority of Muslims probably don't want to convert or subjugate the whole world to Sharia law and convert or subjugate all the infidels, but that does seem to be a central part of most current interpretations of their creed, and the ongoing jihad is a very real phenomenon bringing death and misery to millions of people.
Edited by AJS- on Tuesday 6th October 10:04
wmg
As is often pointed out, the bible can be found to cover most of these things as well depending how you read it. In medieval Europe people were burned alive for heresy including, as Derek pointed out above, William Tyndale who was instrumental in reforming Christianity. It wouldn't be easy, but it can't be beyond the realms of possibility to reform Islam in a similar way. Can it?
daddycool
Why reform it? Same reason as you would build a road round or over, or tunnel through a mountain rather than leveling it. Abolishing even one religion in one country, let alone all religions everywhere, is a massive undertaking which would probably be unsuccessful and even if achieved would likely have highly undesirable effects as other irrational beliefs filled the vacuum.
As is often pointed out, the bible can be found to cover most of these things as well depending how you read it. In medieval Europe people were burned alive for heresy including, as Derek pointed out above, William Tyndale who was instrumental in reforming Christianity. It wouldn't be easy, but it can't be beyond the realms of possibility to reform Islam in a similar way. Can it?
daddycool
Why reform it? Same reason as you would build a road round or over, or tunnel through a mountain rather than leveling it. Abolishing even one religion in one country, let alone all religions everywhere, is a massive undertaking which would probably be unsuccessful and even if achieved would likely have highly undesirable effects as other irrational beliefs filled the vacuum.
I think by definition you'd have to be fairly totalitarian to attempt to ban all religions.
I think the US is as close as it comes to a successful genuinely secular state. France had many problems after the revolution and as far as I know the church has at times still played a fairly strong role in French life, but it is an explicitly secular country. Turkey under Ataturk became secular on paper but I'm not sure it ever has been in practice.
Abolishing all religion in the foreseeable future is a utopian fantasy. A rigorously secular state would do nothing to tackle the wider problem of militant Islam, which is in it's more extreme forms seeks to impose it's own state which is anything but secular.
I'm interested as to whether there is much of a "gap in the market" for a form of Islam which explicitly rejects the intolerance and militancy of it's current forms.
I think the US is as close as it comes to a successful genuinely secular state. France had many problems after the revolution and as far as I know the church has at times still played a fairly strong role in French life, but it is an explicitly secular country. Turkey under Ataturk became secular on paper but I'm not sure it ever has been in practice.
Abolishing all religion in the foreseeable future is a utopian fantasy. A rigorously secular state would do nothing to tackle the wider problem of militant Islam, which is in it's more extreme forms seeks to impose it's own state which is anything but secular.
I'm interested as to whether there is much of a "gap in the market" for a form of Islam which explicitly rejects the intolerance and militancy of it's current forms.
I don't think any of those things will make a blind bit of difference to the ever more militant Muslims in the UK and elsewhere for whom it's a simple choice between fundamentalism Islam and the sinful ways of the infidel kafr.
Might be worth adding that while I hope it can be changed I am not convinced.
While it seems that Jesus was a fairly self effacing character who fed 5000s and healed the blind, and the Buddha was a kind of OCD list maker, it seems to be quite fundamental to the story that Mohammed was a warlord who spent a huge amount of time talking about conquering and subjugation of non Muslims. This seems to have taken a deep root in Islam probably in the way that oppression by the Romans did in Christianity. He also seems tobhave been very definite that his was the final word of God and anyone claiming to update it was evil. An ambitious statement to say the least.
But this is only an impression formed by casual interest.
Might be worth adding that while I hope it can be changed I am not convinced.
While it seems that Jesus was a fairly self effacing character who fed 5000s and healed the blind, and the Buddha was a kind of OCD list maker, it seems to be quite fundamental to the story that Mohammed was a warlord who spent a huge amount of time talking about conquering and subjugation of non Muslims. This seems to have taken a deep root in Islam probably in the way that oppression by the Romans did in Christianity. He also seems tobhave been very definite that his was the final word of God and anyone claiming to update it was evil. An ambitious statement to say the least.
But this is only an impression formed by casual interest.
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