Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[Dixy]

Please will you all sign this and send it to all you know

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/108782

[Dixy]

Rovinghawk said:

May I recommend that anyone wishing to sign the petition actually reads the report (or at least the executive summary) before signing?

That way any petitioning can be done from an informed position.

Which report are you referring to, as what Hunt i proposing is not supported by any report.

I could not agree that the whole NHS needs root and branch reform more but starting by demoralizing, demotivating and loosing its most critical assets is not a good starting point.

Edited by Dixy on Saturday 17th October 15:50

[Dixy]

sidicks said:

...suggest a 20% rise in NHS staff in the last 5 years!

An example of this that might enlighten, current recruitment for senior staff at a hospital, surgical consultant £84k, compliance manager £124k.

[Dixy]

sidicks said:

jjlynn27 said:

I'm not going to answer for abucd4, but I do have couple of questions for you, as you come across as sidick-lite (just my impression don't get hung-up on that too much);

- do you think that there is adequate number of jd (this is the thread about junior doctors) in NHS?
- do you think that junior doctors are adequately remunerated.
- what facts are you referring to when you ask if 'facts are inconvenient'.

The thread was initially about junior doctors. However, rather than provide information to support their beliefs on this particular topic, certain posters decided to make random and unsubstantiated claims about the NHS more widely, reflecting political opinions not supported by available evidence.

It is those claims that are being challenged.

An answer worthy of the finest spin doctor, you failed to answer any question and just ridiculed a different argument.

[Dixy]

Richyboy said:

Its one of the biggest employer's of people in the world supported by a union, no amount of money is ever going to be enough for it. Tories don't stand a chance to contain this beast.

Why can't junior doctors just take naps in their breaks and isn't being thrown in at the deep end the way to acclimatise people in high pressure jobs?

It is rare for a junior doctor to get a long enough break even for the lavatory, particularly when on a 12 hour night on call they are constantly being paged and in a new state of the art hospital like Southmead it is 15 minutes brisk walk from one end to the other. In accountancy or law they can be put under pressure and tomorrow
their supervisor can review their work and tell them where to correct, slightly more difficult when the patient is dead.

[Dixy]

sidicks said:

And yet in the official Government response to the petition we have the following:

We have guaranteed that a new contract will not impose longer hours.
o No junior will be contractually required to work more than an average of 48 hours a week;
o Even those who choose to opt-out of the Working Time Regulations (legally allowing them to work longer) will be limited to an average of 56 hours a week;
o The maximum number of hours in any week will be 72, less than the 91 currently possible under legislation;
o There will be limits of no more than four consecutive night shifts and no more than five consecutive long days;

The operative word in the first 2 is average, that is averaged out over a year, they will work to beyond exhaustion and then equalize it at some latter date, largely because of incompetent rotas.
Third point, notice that it says week not 7 consecutive day, so 72 hour to midnight on Sunday, then 72 hours starting at 0.01 on Monday.
This is why it is not safe for patients and why the NHS wastes £20bn a year on legal settlements.

[Dixy]

Rovinghawk said:

I don't know what jd get paid. I refer you to my previous comment re the independent report.

A junior doctor fresh from graduating gets paid £22k basic at present, the report does NOT say what will be paid after.

[Dixy]

eldar said:

Thanks, that certainly adds clarity for me. Leads me to a couple more questions, firstly, do all junior hospital doctors work shifts, and what effect would the changes have on typical gross salary?

Yes all junior doctors work shifts,despite what Hunt has said in the press, no one knows as the increase in basic has not been actually announced but working on a 15% basic increase, over all salary would drop by 15%ish for all those that I have spoken to who have done the sums based on this placement.

Edited by Dixy on Monday 19th October 19:57

[Dixy]

15 % net loss

[Dixy]

turbobloke said:

Being a patient or having a close relative or friend as a patient confers plenty of understanding.

the same old anti-Conservative union politics is at work in the medical profession. Labour-supporting keyboard social justice warriors are no different in one sense, but very likely less well qualified in another.

To your first point, the only understanding is how much you absolutely need them.

To your second point, you have no comprehension of how wrong you are.

[Dixy]

Hunt has said if you do not accept what we are offering we will impose it upon you. It would seem that Junior doctors have called him on that.
All junior doctors work any of 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year. They are being asked to take a 30% pay cut for changing which parts are paid as anti social, in return for that they are being offered a flat 11%. If you are only in the hospital Mon to Fri 9 to 5 you win, how few do that.
A junior doctor can already be rostered to be paid to work more hours in a week than a truck driver is allowed to in a fortnight. They already stretch both ends for free. Their stance is that this will get worse under the proposed changes and that is not safe, harmed patients, increased damage claims and shattered careers.

[Dixy]

turbobloke said:

well the NHS doesn't need saving, it's a moneypit that needs reforming.

Your own statement is self contradictory.

[Dixy]

turbobloke said:

The junior doctors may get sympathy from fellow travellers and Labour supporters who are yet to come to terms with the election defeat, but I'd wager an unprescribed antibiotic that a lot of sympathy was lost when the overtly political messages appeared alongside a natural desire for the deposit on their next Porsche. Any benefit of the doubt I had for their cause was lost when their political slogans and chants revealed another side to the claimed grievance. They won't care two hoots for that, but the esteem in which the medical profession has hitherto been held won't return once lost.

You keep demonstrating your total lack of any knowledge or understanding of junior doctors in the same way as that vacuous bint Katie Hopkins, unlike her I hope you do not need to fall on your face to have your esteem for their dedication and skill restored.
You may like to consider the concept that the Doctors motives are apolitical, they just want a better, safer NHS and reasonable remuneration for their undoubted professionalism.

[Dixy]

turbobloke said:

'Save Our NHS'

This was one of call me Daves oft spouted phrases over the last 7 years, you will no doubt claim he is one of the looser left as well.

[Dixy]

turbobloke said:

My interest in the junior doctors' strike vote arose primarily from seeing JDs on a protest with placards carrying Labour Party propaganda

This is what you are talking about https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=junior+doctor+pr...j4tdVeE5ikI8TB0ztSsBPi0ijGE%3D&ved=0ahUKEwiLjZLV6qTJAhWLcBoKHSBoCMAQyjcIKQ&ei=pSBSVsumG4vhaaDQoYAM#imgrc=_&usg=j4tdVeE5ikI8TB0ztSsBPi0ijGE%3D

But can you explain why it is Labour party propaganda. I happen to believe that the NHS is something Britain should be immensely proud of and should be saved.

[Dixy]

turbobloke said:

It's pure propaganda, Labour style.

I give in and agree with you completely, all junior doctors are lazy money grabing socialist lefty labour supporters who are only doing this as a massive sulk because their party did not win the last election.

You win, now we are both wrong.

[Dixy]

sidicks said:

Nice sarcasm, but you failed to answer, what / who does the NHS need saving from?

Interesting how you and turbo both hang so much bile on this term "save", if it such a left wing thing can you explain why Jeremy is so reluctant to sing God SAVE the Queen.

I happen to think that the clinicians are the bedrock of the NHS and having the very best will give us the best healthcare, we can recruit Doctors that buy their certificates in Manila and pay them four fiths of sod all, the Australians are delighted to pay our highly regarded medics four times what they are paid here for half the hours.

As I have made clear on any thread I can the first group I would save the NHS from would be the lawyers who prey on it at every opportunity.

The next bunch it needs protecting from are the bean counters in grey suits who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

This 7 days a week red herring has nothing to do with Doctors working week, they are always there, stand at the exit to a staff car park at 5pm and see the exodus, the thing you will notice is none of them have a stethoscope hung around their neck.

[Dixy]

sidicks said:

when the OP decided that the NHS needed to be 'saved', but then refused to explain what or who the NHS needed to be save from.

HTH

Being saved was an fixation of turbo not mine, all I asked was for people to sign the petition and pass it on. If you could be bothered to read what others write you may get the answers you claim to seek, try reading my post on page 23.

[Dixy]

This is not about pensions or about politics. This is about an employer saying they intend to change terms and will impose them if not accepted. Hunt took out a knife and the Doctors have shown him a gun. When he puts his Knife away they can talk.

[Dixy]

sidicks said:

Surely an employer has a right to propose changes to employee's terms if they think it will benefit the customer?

Propose yes, impose no.

Turbo try talking to Junior Doctors rather than getting your opinion from Sky news.