Primary School Visit to Mosque
Discussion
Wife just returned from picking up daughter from Brownies. Some parents whose kids go to another local school were discussing a letter in the book bag tonight about a visit to a Mosque for year 2 to 4 (6 to 10?).
Letter says that girls must have their heads covered and wear trousers or leggings (not tights) under their skirts. Also will have to remove footwear, as will the boys.
All to be expected if going to a Mosque I suppose, but should kids and especially girls be asked by their school at the age of 6 to 10 to be making this trip? After all, the religion worshipped is not exactly "inclusive" from a gender point of view and it would appear often discriminatory toward women and girls.
This is a "C of E" school, although is a small rural school that happens to be "c of E" rather than what you may call a "faith school" as such. I understand they have various denominations there, including a handful of Muslim kids, and teach about various religions, as does my daughter's school. But there has been no planned visits to Budhists Temples or Catholic churches it would seem from the conversations this evening!
Trip is being part funded by the PTA also. The letter asks allows for permission to be refused. If it were your kids, what would you think and would you let them go? Son or daughter?
A google suggests some case last year of parents saying their kids would be at risk of "being shot" if they went to a Mosque, a pretty far fetched reason, I am sure we would all agree, but should we be allowing or kids to go and see how women and girls have to behave differently? If the whole idea is to promote tolerance, should the Mosque not bend it's rules to allow all the kids in in their normal school uniform? Or does tolerance only work one way..!?
I have put this in News Politics etc as it would appear quite topical based on recent events.
Letter says that girls must have their heads covered and wear trousers or leggings (not tights) under their skirts. Also will have to remove footwear, as will the boys.
All to be expected if going to a Mosque I suppose, but should kids and especially girls be asked by their school at the age of 6 to 10 to be making this trip? After all, the religion worshipped is not exactly "inclusive" from a gender point of view and it would appear often discriminatory toward women and girls.
This is a "C of E" school, although is a small rural school that happens to be "c of E" rather than what you may call a "faith school" as such. I understand they have various denominations there, including a handful of Muslim kids, and teach about various religions, as does my daughter's school. But there has been no planned visits to Budhists Temples or Catholic churches it would seem from the conversations this evening!
Trip is being part funded by the PTA also. The letter asks allows for permission to be refused. If it were your kids, what would you think and would you let them go? Son or daughter?
A google suggests some case last year of parents saying their kids would be at risk of "being shot" if they went to a Mosque, a pretty far fetched reason, I am sure we would all agree, but should we be allowing or kids to go and see how women and girls have to behave differently? If the whole idea is to promote tolerance, should the Mosque not bend it's rules to allow all the kids in in their normal school uniform? Or does tolerance only work one way..!?
I have put this in News Politics etc as it would appear quite topical based on recent events.
I agree to a degree on the dress sense to show respect, but let's not forget that women are discriminated against by followers of this religion. And this dress code is part of this is it not? I mean, could the boys go in in their shorts?
The head scarf thing is only for the girls of course.
Oh, this isn't a local mosque, either. It is about 60 miles away, so is a full day out, busses etc.
And point made is that they've done various religions in the last 2 years and never visited any other "houses of worship".
The head scarf thing is only for the girls of course.
Oh, this isn't a local mosque, either. It is about 60 miles away, so is a full day out, busses etc.
And point made is that they've done various religions in the last 2 years and never visited any other "houses of worship".
Edited by poo at Paul's on Friday 15th January 22:35
Evanivitch said:
I remember wearing a kippah when visiting a synagogue as a kid, thought it was quite interesting to "dress up" tbh.
I also remember being turned away from a church on a school trip in France because my Man Utd fleece had a devil on it.
As much as I don't agree with religion, they do have the right to request a dress code of those visiting, and most likely this was written by the former Theology student that had limited career options. ..
Also, let's not forget that women aren't equal in the Catholic church before we start throwing equality statements about.
I'm sure the dress thing would be my concern directly. But the way it targets the girls only, at such a young age, and the discrimination that the religion shows toward women, would probably tip my decision to a "no". I also remember being turned away from a church on a school trip in France because my Man Utd fleece had a devil on it.
As much as I don't agree with religion, they do have the right to request a dress code of those visiting, and most likely this was written by the former Theology student that had limited career options. ..
Also, let's not forget that women aren't equal in the Catholic church before we start throwing equality statements about.
Evanivitch said:
So you'd deprive your child the opportunity to learn about a religion for themselves? You'd rather impose your own prejudices on them from an early age?
a) I see it as protecting her. b) Why should I let strangers 60 miles away impose "THEIR" prejudices on her? (BTW, it isn't Rotheram!?)
I'm not saying she cannot learn about the religion, in school as she does already and these kids from the other school already do. And she will make her own mind up about it one day.
We are not religious at all in our house.
Greg66 said:
Do you not trust her to make up her mind now? If she thinks covering her hair is s
t, she will form an adverse opinion of the religion. If she thinks it is necessarily respectful she will form a different opinion.
She's old enough to to think for herself. Sometimes her thoughts will coincide with yours and sometimes they won't. You can't hope to protect her from independent thought forever.
Speak to her beforehand, then trust her.
But she doesn't need to experience the discrimination to learn about it. t, she will form an adverse opinion of the religion. If she thinks it is necessarily respectful she will form a different opinion. She's old enough to to think for herself. Sometimes her thoughts will coincide with yours and sometimes they won't. You can't hope to protect her from independent thought forever.
Speak to her beforehand, then trust her.
The sad reality is that it's not ok to discriminate on grounds of gender in the UK, so why should she be subjected to it. Because that says to her it is ok, and my own opinion is, it isn't! She is too young to understand it goes a fair bit deeper than covering their heads and legs in the Mosque!
If it were my daughter with the letter, and I decided against it, I would explain why.
Chrisgr31 said:
Exactly this. I would be quite happy for my daughter to go on a trip like this. Learning about all faiths has to be good especially in the current climate,
You may have missed the bit about the fact that they are already learning about this religion, as they have other religions including Hinduism, Budhism, Judaism and the various Christian faiths so far...but they have not been on a visit to any other temples or houses of worship, in the last 2 years, this is the first and in doing so, the girls will be discriminated against compared to the boys. And these are predominantly either Christian or Agnostic kids. So to reiterate, they are already learning about this religion and others for the last 2 years, but not other faith visits.
If it were my daughter and there was no "discriminatory" dress code, I would probably let her go.
Silver Smudger said:
I really am amazed how paranoid and hysterical this thread is - No-one on a school trip is going to be brainwashed, radicalise, raped or shot! It will be a tour of a building and some information about how a group of normal humans worship their deity of choice. There is also a dress code.
I recently went on a similar primary school trip with my kids to a Gurdwara - Shoes had to be removed and heads had to be covered, as these are the rules of the building. Some of the kids thought the head-scarves issued looked silly, some pretended to be ninjas - Most of the boys skated on the marble floors in their socks!
I found the visit very interesting, knowing very little about the Sikh faith, and so did many of the class - No-one was preached to, or converted but the children were able to meet people they normally would not have known.
Learning a little about how others see the world and live their lives is something that everyone should take time to do, and this is an opportunity, not a trap.
FWIW, I am not a Muslim, I am white, middle aged and brought up in the Baptist church, but am now not religious. I went to an all-white C of E school - Now I work in London with people from an assortment of backgrounds, religious groups and countries of origin, and count some of them as good friends. I do not personally know any extreme jihadists, but I never met anyone from the UVF at church either...
Some of you could do with actually meeting a Muslim, instead of relying on the Daily Mail for your opinions.
Your example is not quite the same though is it? If it were both sexes that had to abide by the same rules, as in your case, as the father of a daughter, it would not trouble me I don't think. However, as this is what non muslims may see as discrimination against the female sex, and as those of us who are older know, the religion goes on to segregate and most non muslims would say denigrate women, I think it is a totally different thing. For example, the letter says that all the kids will have to remove their shoes etc..I have no issue with that. And if the lads had to wear trousers only (no shorts) and cover their heads, again, I don't think I would have an issue. I recently went on a similar primary school trip with my kids to a Gurdwara - Shoes had to be removed and heads had to be covered, as these are the rules of the building. Some of the kids thought the head-scarves issued looked silly, some pretended to be ninjas - Most of the boys skated on the marble floors in their socks!
I found the visit very interesting, knowing very little about the Sikh faith, and so did many of the class - No-one was preached to, or converted but the children were able to meet people they normally would not have known.
Learning a little about how others see the world and live their lives is something that everyone should take time to do, and this is an opportunity, not a trap.
FWIW, I am not a Muslim, I am white, middle aged and brought up in the Baptist church, but am now not religious. I went to an all-white C of E school - Now I work in London with people from an assortment of backgrounds, religious groups and countries of origin, and count some of them as good friends. I do not personally know any extreme jihadists, but I never met anyone from the UVF at church either...
Some of you could do with actually meeting a Muslim, instead of relying on the Daily Mail for your opinions.
Edited by Silver Smudger on Saturday 16th January 03:00
Corpulent Tosser said:
I agree, I am non religious and have deep suspicion about religions particularly Islam, but this is a school trip, to further the education and knowledge of the children, not a brainwashing exercise.
No one has said it is! FFS, they are already learning about Islam and all other religions it is on the syllabus. But do you think it is ok for a religion to discriminate and segregate against one particular sex? because I don't and millions or billions of others feel the same.
The discomfort felt by the mums last night was on the basis of the dress code being enforced on their daughters. And I tend to see where they are coming from.
I do not worry that my daughter would be "brainwashed" or anything else. But should she be subjected to the discrimination that this fait practices on their women folk, even just a little, like wearing a headscarf?
BTW, it seems I was incorrect, this is just one class and is all kids 7 and 8. So if the poster at the start who mentioned about pre pubescent girls not being subject to the same "rules" as older girls, then it would seem over zealous to make them dress differently, no?
This is a school that was in the top 3 of the league tables a few years ago, in the country that is, btw!
WinkleHoff said:
OP: are the school conducting visits to other temples or places of worship of other religions?
No, as stated in the OP. They have done this in RE for two year plus, and no other visits. Same at my daughters school, they learn about the lot, but do not visit anywhere (not yet anyway).If it is like my daughters place, the level of teaching is very high, she really does know a lot about the various religions, certainly more than me on some. And I encourage that.
eccles said:
All religions discriminate against women. So I take you wouldn't be happy about a visit to your local cathedral then?
How would she be discriminated against during that visit though? If she was asked to stand away from the boys or not allowed to go into certain areas, absolutely "no" she would not be going.
Again we are not religious. And we are not sexist either. My daughter plays football and basket ball, in fact that is all they do at her school. No netball for example, traditionally a women's game.
el stovey said:
So you're asking opinions about a letter about a school trip sent to some other parents your wife overheard discussing and then told you about. 
She has a copy of the letter. These kids involved are friends of my daughter's we know them well, and they are local and got the same Brownie troop. TBH, I am glad we are not in the position these parents are in.
ATG said:
You are over reacting enormously. Calm down. Let the school get on with trying to educate your kid.
Again, please read the OP. It is not my kid. My child is educated very well. This is the school her mates go to. Parents are feeling awkward and particularly those with daughters (but not all I may add) but as a father to a daughter, I can see why they would be feeling awkward. And from this thread I suspect I am not alone.Please don't think I feel any kids on this visit would be brainwashed, radicalised, or abused. I don't. But , I do see the imposition of a dress code on the girls, who are 7 and 8 and therefore according to one poster on here, not subject to this dress code, to be a form of discrimination against her on the basis of her sex. And I would feel uncomfortable with that.
Shoes off for all, not a problem. Keeping quiet or in certain areas, for all, not a problem. 7 and 8 yrs old girls being singled out to wear clobber they don't normally wear, on an organised school trip in uniform, well that troubles me personally.
And it is on that basis alone, nothing else, that if it WERE my daughter, I would say a polite no and explain to school why.
This is an interesting debate and more replies than i thought, but seems to have been hijacked in the middle by people crying that some are being paranoid about indoctrination, radcialisation etc, and I see no evidence of that. But same protagonists and irritants will be claiming racism soon enough.
And it had nowt to do with it from what I can see. I don't see any posts from people claiminf their kids would be radicalised or abused. But maybe I cannot "read between the lines" like others.
Sexism is the issue here, I am quite surprised we have so many supporters of it as IMHO there is no place for it in 2016 UK.
Evanivitch said:
Can the boys wear skirts to school?
I'm not sure but they do wear shorts. The girls can wear trousers too. But both sexes have a choice as to what to wear within the typical confines of the school uniform and colours. I think that is quite common and the same at my daughter's place. Edited by poo at Paul's on Saturday 16th January 18:55
Countdown said:
poo at Paul's said:
I do not worry that my daughter would be "brainwashed" or anything else. But should she be subjected to the discrimination that this fait practices on their women folk, even just a little, like wearing a headscarf?
Are you sure about this? There is no requirement for any visitors to a mosque of any age to wear headscarves. Muslims of both sexes are recommended to wear head coverings when praying or reading the Koran but again it's not compulsory.poo at Paul's said:
This is a school that was in the top 3 of the league tables a few years ago, in the country that is, btw!
Sounds like they might know a thing or two about how best to teach the kids.....On the second, it "was". It's still a good school mind you!
ATG said:
It's the same level of completely trivial sexism that is displayed by a restaurant that asks men to wear a jacket and tie. Did you ever feel discriminated against because you as a man were asked to wear a tie?
That's never happened to me, perhaps I chose to dress in a suitable way. I don't think it is the same at all. These are 8 year olds from a C of E school that wear a uniform at school and for all school visits. BTW if I ever was asked to dress differently at a restaurant, and I wasn't dressed like a mess, I would probably chose to take my custom elsewhere.
And of course, the kids, well via their parents permission, have the choice to not go on this trip I understand. Although, of course, the trip to the "forest field" centre afterwards would have to be missed also!
Edited by poo at Paul's on Saturday 16th January 18:07
Alpinestars said:
Ever heard of boys' schools and girls' schools?
Of course. What is your point? The school involved as clearly explained, is a mixed school.
Don't take this the wrong way but you seem wither a bit dim, or trying to just be inflammatory.
If you really think the idea of a choice for a few that it suits of a single sex education system for a maximum of what, 12 years of their lives, to the Islamic religion's denegration of women by the male followers of that religion for their whole lives, then you are either stupid, sexist, or perhaps here's a guess, a male follower of this particular religion. hmmm, I wonder!???
If that idea that it is no different than posh kids in single sex schools makes you sleep better at night, fine, but for the rest of us, your chosen religion is inherently sexist and displays an attitude that should not be encouraged in a modern UK.
Ridley said:
btw there seems to be vast amounts of consternation in this thread about religion in general but did you all miss the rather large point that the OP chooses to send his child to a CofE school? Why isn't your angst directed also at him?
Sorry mate, it would appear to be you that is missing the rather large point, my daughter goes to a non denomination state primary school, but thanks for your input. And yes, if it were my daughter, my issue would be merely the fact she would be treated differently to her male class colleagues. And per several more knowledgeable posters on here than I, it would appear to be an unnecessary request.
There's been some developments today on the issue with some parents having taken it up with the school head it seems. If anyone is interested I will try to give an update, it certainly has been a talking point locally and it would seem on here.
Thanks for everyone's opinions and information, it has been interesting to hear.
Edited by poo at Paul's on Saturday 16th January 23:06
Edited by poo at Paul's on Saturday 16th January 23:08
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff