What's so bad about EU regulation anyway?
Discussion
I was listening to Liam Fox on the Today programme earlier essentially saying that his ideal world would be access to the single market without membership of the EU thus freeing Britain from EU rules and regs.
Yep, like you're going to manage that I said to myself.
And the I thought, as I got some beef out of the freezer to defrost - what does Liam actually mean?
I presume health, hygiene and food safety standards are uniform across the EU, at the moment, with the good intention of ensuring we all eat safe food.
If Britain is not subject to EU regulation, would EU countries even be able to import food from a country which can't prove it conforms to the EU regualtions Liam Fox et al want to throw out?
If we intend to pick and choose which EU regulations we like and will adhere to - won't this require the establishment of a bureaucracy on a similar scale to that already existing for EU standards?
It just made me consider that most EU regulation is probably for my own good - why should I want to throw that out just because it was created by a German and not a Briton?
What will happen about farming standards preventing bird flu, mad cow disease and whatever other new bugs arrive - surely all of this is better organised on a large scale basis and requires proper implementation across all nations.
What about all the new legislation regulating mobile phone charges and so on?
I'm a Remainer anyway... but Liam Fox just made me realise that I have no idea what regulations Leavers actually don't want or why those regulations are so bad that Leavers can't tolerate being 'told what to do'.
What and why are the regulations (other than immigration) that Leavers object to?
Yep, like you're going to manage that I said to myself.
And the I thought, as I got some beef out of the freezer to defrost - what does Liam actually mean?
I presume health, hygiene and food safety standards are uniform across the EU, at the moment, with the good intention of ensuring we all eat safe food.
If Britain is not subject to EU regulation, would EU countries even be able to import food from a country which can't prove it conforms to the EU regualtions Liam Fox et al want to throw out?
If we intend to pick and choose which EU regulations we like and will adhere to - won't this require the establishment of a bureaucracy on a similar scale to that already existing for EU standards?
It just made me consider that most EU regulation is probably for my own good - why should I want to throw that out just because it was created by a German and not a Briton?
What will happen about farming standards preventing bird flu, mad cow disease and whatever other new bugs arrive - surely all of this is better organised on a large scale basis and requires proper implementation across all nations.
What about all the new legislation regulating mobile phone charges and so on?
I'm a Remainer anyway... but Liam Fox just made me realise that I have no idea what regulations Leavers actually don't want or why those regulations are so bad that Leavers can't tolerate being 'told what to do'.
What and why are the regulations (other than immigration) that Leavers object to?
Esseesse said:
footnote said:
It just made me consider that most EU regulation is probably for my own good - why should I want to throw that out just because it was created by a German and not a Briton?
I don't think anyones care who made the regs. You may think they're for your own good and be happy to be treated like a child. Wherever possible I would rather be free to make a judgement on whether something is too dangerous/risky.I can't see Theresa May giving me any more say over anything - in fact she and Corbyn will be popping round to check my internet usage on a daily basis.
jjlynn27 said:
Esseesse said:
I don't think anyones care who made the regs. You may think they're for your own good and be happy to be treated like a child. Wherever possible I would rather be free to make a judgement on whether something is too dangerous/risky.
This is the part that I don't get. I've read somewhere that UK Climate change policy will be stricter than EU one was. Hover wattage part is on the same level as roaming charges, curved cucumbers and low voltage bulbs. Completely irrelevant. You'll have bunch of bureaucrats (no, you'll not get the chance to vote for them either) in Whitehall making those regulations. Are they going to be more efficient than Brux ones? Who knows.
That's why we train professionals and create this type of society/infrastructure.
I don't want to be a serf/peasant reinventing the wheel for myself every day.
But staying on topic I really would like to know what and why are the regulations (other than immigration) that Leavers object to?
I'm not taking the piss - I really can't think of anything imposed on me from the EU that genuinely affects my life for the worse that I can get hacked off at the EU about.
I'm not taking the piss - I really can't think of anything imposed on me from the EU that genuinely affects my life for the worse that I can get hacked off at the EU about.
Puggit said:
footnote said:
But staying on topic I really would like to know what and why are the regulations (other than immigration) that Leavers object to?
I'm not taking the piss - I really can't think of anything imposed on me from the EU that genuinely affects my life for the worse that I can get hacked off at the EU about.
Speak to small business ownersI'm not taking the piss - I really can't think of anything imposed on me from the EU that genuinely affects my life for the worse that I can get hacked off at the EU about.
What is a small business? - anything from a solo craftsperson, an independent newsagent to a small media agency or factory?
Surely though, the regulations apply across the EU to all businesses uniformly, so none is unfairly disadvantaged against the other?
I mean, it's hard to argue that an off-licence in Streatham is unfaily punished with regulation compared to an off-licence in Germany, and conforming to the same regs as the off-licence in Brixton sounds fair to me.
I get that owning a business is a pain in the ass (why does anyone do it? - joking) but it's never going to be rule-free even in an independent Britain.
crankedup said:
If we disagree with something we can chuck the Government out, unelected EU suits we can't. For me that has always been a major gripe.
I don't know about this. We can chuck our MPs out every 5 years - we can't chuck our civil servants out.We can chuck our MEPs out but we can't chuck EU civil servants out.
Same as, same as.
Equally - the 'will of the people' in their wisdom was to elect MEPs who don't turn up and said they wouldn't turn up (if I understand the point of UKIP) so we can hardly blame anyone but ourselves if we haven't had a voice.
NickGibbs said:
skilly1 said:
I have a couple which have affected me, I believe they are EU lead:
1. Great crested newt protection. We have no shortage in the UK, but the rest of Europe does. So they slap a preservation order on them. This cost me around £30,000.
2. Wash down pad for golf machinery. I believe this is part of some European water legislation. Legislation that machines that are used for cutting grass have to be washed down in a closed circuit water system. Why, 100,000 mowers are used by people every day and they don't have too. Cars drive along wet roads every day and oil grease come off them and drains can manage. This would cost me around £20,000.
Well done for posting that. A genuine example (landscaping business?) 1. Great crested newt protection. We have no shortage in the UK, but the rest of Europe does. So they slap a preservation order on them. This cost me around £30,000.
2. Wash down pad for golf machinery. I believe this is part of some European water legislation. Legislation that machines that are used for cutting grass have to be washed down in a closed circuit water system. Why, 100,000 mowers are used by people every day and they don't have too. Cars drive along wet roads every day and oil grease come off them and drains can manage. This would cost me around £20,000.
Let's here more. there has been a lack of examples of EU laws that negatively affect people. It would be good to hear more. Maybe farming?
http://www.bigga.org.uk/about-us/magazine/back-iss...
But my understanding is that the legislation is to prevent 'you' as a business, polluting the water table with chemicals used commercially.
The regulation is there to protect me 'Joe Public' from you 'Joe Business' using chemicals to improve your business but which could harm me?
I don't have a problem with that. I'm all for it. Pass the expenses on to golf club users.
I can see a business would grumble.
But then no doubt some businesses grumbled when they said you can't pour engine oil down the drain either.
rover 623gsi said:
skilly1 said:
I have a couple which have affected me, I believe they are EU lead:
1. Great crested newt protection. We have no shortage in the UK, but the rest of Europe does. So they slap a preservation order on them. This cost me around £30,000.
2. Wash down pad for golf machinery. I believe this is part of some European water legislation. Legislation that machines that are used for cutting grass have to be washed down in a closed circuit water system. Why, 100,000 mowers are used by people every day and they don't have too. Cars drive along wet roads every day and oil grease come off them and drains can manage. This would cost me around £20,000.
Gold Crested Newts are protected under the Wildlife & Countryside Act 1981 (as amended) and the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulation 2010. 1. Great crested newt protection. We have no shortage in the UK, but the rest of Europe does. So they slap a preservation order on them. This cost me around £30,000.
2. Wash down pad for golf machinery. I believe this is part of some European water legislation. Legislation that machines that are used for cutting grass have to be washed down in a closed circuit water system. Why, 100,000 mowers are used by people every day and they don't have too. Cars drive along wet roads every day and oil grease come off them and drains can manage. This would cost me around £20,000.
The Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulation 2010 consolidates a bunch of regulations that were borne out of the 1992 EU Habiitats Directive (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:31992L0043).
So, if/when we leave the EU, we will no longer be beholden to the Habitats Directive. But we will continue to beholden to the Coservations of Habitats and Species Regulations 2010 - so Gold Crested Newts will still be protected. Unless of course we, as a society, decide that this no longer necessary at which some point the regulation will get changed. I can't see it being a priority post-Brexit but it want to lobby your MP I'm sure he/she will look into it for you.
Weighing up the Gold Crested Newt grumble against the positive effects of EU regulation for me and most citizens, isn't really making the case for Leaving, for me.
Rovinghawk said:
footnote said:
Weighing up the Gold Crested Newt grumble against the positive effects of EU regulation for me and most citizens, isn't really making the case for Leaving, for me.
In isolation it's not a biggie.There's more to be weighed in the balance; how do you feel about the ports thing? Or is your view entrenched rather than susceptible to persuasion?
It's interesting that the UK is the only country which has privately run ports - this is an interesting document -
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cac...
especially this point:
Since the abolition of the National Dock
Labour Scheme in 1989, stevedoring
companies employ a core workforce and run
their own recruitment agencies to satisfy
peaks in labour demand. It has been argued
that the abolition of the scheme was not a
complete success as it led to a decrease in
welfare provisions for dock workers. The
productivity of port workers in UK ports has
generally increased. However, some
experts8 claim that it is not at all clear how
much of the productivity gains came from
abolishing the scheme and how much has
been passed on to port users and
consumers. Others9 assert that UK ports are
now "locked in a vicious spiral of cost-cutting,
based predominantly on reducing labour
costs" and that the UK experience provides
few arguments to support full privatisation
when other less radical reforms could have
achieved the same objectives.
Like most UK citizens I'm probably never going to be a 'major employer' so I tend to take the view in life that it's the individual who largely needs to be protected from the bigger corporations etc. The EU doesn't seem to be my enemy in this.
But you have a different view?
williamp said:
here's one example, written by the leftie Uber Guardian writer George Monbiot (I get the feeling if anyone quotes the mail in this thread, it will be ignored)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun...
Then there's the decision of the EU to pay Ford (with our money) to move Transit production away from Southampton (in the UK) and into Turkey (not in the EU) to help job creation in Turkey (not in the EU).
There are others (the Telegraph did a quiz here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howabou...
and remember there are others which have been repelled. But remember there are people-paid for by us- who think up these things. And there are more then 10,000 EU officials who earn more then the UK Prime Minister.
One of the reasons I voted leave is because the EU is too big and no longer fit four purpose. But it refuses to acknowledge this
Perhaps I've misunderstood your post - but that Guardian article says this:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun...
Then there's the decision of the EU to pay Ford (with our money) to move Transit production away from Southampton (in the UK) and into Turkey (not in the EU) to help job creation in Turkey (not in the EU).
There are others (the Telegraph did a quiz here
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howabou...and remember there are others which have been repelled. But remember there are people-paid for by us- who think up these things. And there are more then 10,000 EU officials who earn more then the UK Prime Minister.
One of the reasons I voted leave is because the EU is too big and no longer fit four purpose. But it refuses to acknowledge this
I’m talking about farm subsidies. If the Brexiters have raised the subject at all, it’s only to assure recipients that these vast sums will continue to be extracted from taxpayers’ pockets if Britain leaves. Some – such as Theresa Villiers and Owen Paterson – have suggested that the great giveaway of public funds could even be increased.
This racket is perhaps the strongest of all arguments for leaving the European Union, but the Brexiters’ silence resounds. Among the 13 Conservative MPs who signed an open letter last week undertaking not to cut subsidies for owning or leasing land if Britain leaves the union was Iain Duncan Smith. His wife’s family’s estate, on which he lives, receives £150,000 a year of your money, handed to them by the EU.
I think that suggests that, even having left the EU, the Govt has every intention of spending UK tax money to replace EU farm subsidies - yu can't blame the EU for that.
I can see there are very specific and technical rules that affect business - and very often for very good reason.
Of course, business, whether it's a private port or a haulage company, can and does lobby on it's own behalf, here and in the EU.
This doesn't really apply to private individuals.
So far, it's vacuum cleaners then, that's the biggie of being told what to do by the EU, that we can identify that affects private individuals (other than immigration).
There must be some other domineering EU rules and regs that make all our lives more difficult.
Where I stand, I can't think of any, but I do want to know.
Of course, business, whether it's a private port or a haulage company, can and does lobby on it's own behalf, here and in the EU.
This doesn't really apply to private individuals.
So far, it's vacuum cleaners then, that's the biggie of being told what to do by the EU, that we can identify that affects private individuals (other than immigration).
There must be some other domineering EU rules and regs that make all our lives more difficult.
Where I stand, I can't think of any, but I do want to know.
Rovinghawk said:
footnote said:
Fundamentally, I agree with remaining in the EU............
But you have a different view?
I'm EU- rather than UK-born. I speak French & German, can understand many of the other languages.But you have a different view?
I've worked in France, Germany, Holland, Finland, Latvia & Switzerland (not EU but you see where I'm going). I've had GFs from all those countries.
I should be more pro-EU than the average. However, my view is that whilst the concept is admirable the reality is not. One size does not fit all very well and various factions will want regulations to suit themselves rather than the rest; an example is CAP rules massively favouring the French.
I want us to have the flexibility to choose which regulations suit us & which don't. We can cooperate whilst still being independent.
I don't have the in-depth knowledge to say which regulations favour the French over us and which favour us over the French and I can't go down the 'poor me' route of imagining than none of the regulations favour us.
Negotiation, agreement, accord - it's give and take. You win some and lose some.
The reality was never going to be perfect for everybody - that's implict in the sacrifice we make for the overall improvement of all of us.
I go to Ireland on holidays, I'm able to walk on EU funded roads and pavements that weren't there when I was a child. They benefit. I drive there, my car isn't damaged. I benefit. They make more money from tourism. They come to England on holidays and spend their money here. We discover that we're not all bigoted haters. We get on. We learn and we choose not to go back to war over 6 counties.
It's not all about the money - it can't be. If it is, we give up now.
I would pay for peace rather than die for peace, unlike our grandfathers - it's a choice they didn't have. It's not one I would give up either.
Rovinghawk said:
footnote said:
And of course, if we can choose which regulations suit us and which don't, you'd respect the right of every other country to apply the same criteria
Yesfootnote said:
which results in no agreement...or an agreement to disagreement.
If an idea is good for all it's adopted by all. If not then not. Alles gut.footnote said:
The reality was never going to be perfect for everybody - that's implict in the sacrifice we make for the overall improvement of all of us.
Please prove that overall it's a benefit, as you claim.footnote said:
I go to Ireland on holidays, I'm able to walk on EU funded roads and pavements that weren't there when I was a child. They benefit. I drive there, my car isn't damaged. I benefit. They make more money from tourism. They come to England on holidays and spend their money here. We discover that we're not all bigoted haters. We get on. We learn and we choose not to go back to war over 6 counties.
It's not all about the money - it can't be. If it is, we give up now.
I would pay for peace rather than die for peace, unlike our grandfathers - it's a choice they didn't have. It's not one I would give up either.
None of this is about regulations, is it?It's not all about the money - it can't be. If it is, we give up now.
I would pay for peace rather than die for peace, unlike our grandfathers - it's a choice they didn't have. It's not one I would give up either.
footnote said:
None of this is about regulations, is it?
Well no, but beyond vacuum cleaners, which regulations are people bothered about?That the reality is that people didn't choose Leave because of regulations?
It's about the other stuff - the emotive stuff.
Perhaps you didn't mean that.
I'm actually doing the vacuuming at the moment! It's probably a carp hoover - it's taking it out of me.
sidicks said:
footnote said:
Sorry, I think that went over my head - that's what you meant isn't it?
That the reality is that people didn't choose Leave because of regulations?
It's about the other stuff - the emotive stuff.
Perhaps you didn't mean that.
I'm actually doing the vacuuming at the moment! It's probably a carp hoover - it's taking it out of me.
It's about a wife range of different things, some economic, some practical, some 'emotive'.That the reality is that people didn't choose Leave because of regulations?
It's about the other stuff - the emotive stuff.
Perhaps you didn't mean that.
I'm actually doing the vacuuming at the moment! It's probably a carp hoover - it's taking it out of me.
I didn't want to ask people abut the immigration issue for fear of stirring the racism pot so I wanted to know what it means 'being told what to do'
I've taken that to be unnecessary or disagreeable rules and regulations.
I've not found any EU rules or regs that affect me personally in a bad way - quite the contrary.
As people on PH are statistically more likely to be Leavers and generally like to read up on stuff, the perfect people I thought, to ask which regualtions actually are bad enough to make you want to leave.
But I don't think people really are revealing EU rules or regs which bug them personally.
Rovinghawk said:
footnote said:
I've not found any EU rules or regs that affect me personally in a bad way
So the ports thing isn't a bad regulation because it doesn't affect you personally? You seem to be moving the goalposts.The first objection in your mind was vacuum cleaners so you can hardly call me out on altruism.
If you followed my thoughts on the 'ports thing' I expressed concerns for the effect on employees which you seem unbothered about.
Nor was the ports issue even on the agenda when Leavers were interviewed in Yarmouth this morning and Boston yesterday.
Of course, they obviously knew about it and voted on those grounds but chose not to mention it
But then you still haven't managed to answer the OP anyway, have you?
sidicks said:
biggles330d said:
Do you really think the UK Government is going to be more generous to the farmers from UK taxation than CAP is? It might favour French Farmers but they carry a lot of influence which has benefitted UK farmers. I can see very quickly a lot of noisy farmers faced with many more cheap imports (yes, that was promised with access to more global markets) and a drastically lower subsidy settlement from Government than they're used to. I'm staggered at how many farmers voted out as they seem to have the most to loose along with the Welsh steel workers and northern automotive workers.
Maybe turkeys do actually vote for Christmas?
If we're not subsidising the French we have scope to increase subsidies to our farmers, if considered appropriate.Maybe turkeys do actually vote for Christmas?
We could use that money from the tax on migrant fruit-pickers wages, sorry, they've gone haven't they?
Still, at least there's lost of jobs for the young English unemployed now - I bet they can't wait to get their backs into it.
crankedup said:
The NFU rep' made an appearance on local television, apparently a significant number of farmers within the east Anglia region had voted to leave EU. Obviously confident that the UK Government will meet the subsidy requirements of the industry?
I saw a Cornish person on TV saying they'd voted Leave but wanted to keep getting the EU money too.I've seen many Leavers on tv saying we're not all thick bigots - go figure.
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