Terrorism - how will this all end?

[BigLion]

With yet another likely terrorist attack it feels like these are happening daily.

What do people think will be the end game in say 5 years time?

Will people in the West start to feel more sympathetic towards the policies spouted by the likes of Trump, will society end up divided with Muslims seen as the common enemy despite the vast majority not condoning the violence or will we see an erosion of human rights akin to Guantanamo etc.?

[BigLion]

jjlynn27 said:

Oakey said:

Sam All said:

I'd like to think that. However our fairness and our strength will be used against us in the shape of PC and such. I do not underestimate their intellect and their single mindedness, focus & sacrifice for their religion. Technology - Pakistan has nukes and no doubt there is a cosy arrangement with the KSA.

We are greater in number at present but the trend is crystal clear, because of the above, and they punch above their weight. Anyone want to bet that 10% of the UK will be Muslim by 2050? Probably sooner.

It will get messy and messier the longer we sleep walk into this. Respect for the host and their way of life.

Pretty sure it's already been estimated that ten percent of Europe will be muslim by 2030 (or it may be 2050)

edit: it's 2050 according to the Guardian and they'll outnumber Christians worldwide by 2070

Edited by Oakey on Saturday 23 July 18:56

You reckon anyone knows what's going to happen by 2070?

So sad to see grown men in fear over something that'll 'happen' 30-50 years from now.

Bonkers. And 'they' part is really quite telling.

Population trends are not that hard to forecast 50 years into the future - in fact it is rather straight forward, it's not like trying to predict whether it's going to be a white Xmas.

As a nation you have to plan for the future, with a mindset like yours we would never have bothered with the car or space exploration!

[BigLion]

Greg66 said:

BigLion said:

With yet another likely terrorist attack

Except it wasn't.

Thank god I used the word 'likely' then, but this wasn't about Munich per se but the more generic terrorism issue in Western Europe - unless you only operate with a 24hr memory. Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

[BigLion]

rscott said:

Digga said:

Not all Islam us evil, no. Not all Muslims want to change society into a caliphate, but there are some fundamental nodes of conflict between large parts of Islam and liberal, Western culture:
- Gender equality
- Sexual equality
- Alcohol
- Dress (or lack of)

All of the above are sticking points; the West will not yield on these. Moving forward, Islam has to deal with this. It cannot expect pockets of Sharia to shield it from core, basic human rights, if it wants not just to exist, but to integrate with the West. It has to change.

Some are not unique to Muslims though - alcohol is banned by other religions too (Sikhs & Mormons, for example).

Sharia law obviously shouldn't replace or override British laws, but parts of it aren't incompatible, just as parts of the Jewish courts can operate within our laws.

The key is to work with all these faiths to ensure that if any religious courts exist, they do so in an open and public manner which is compatible with existing laws.

Sikhism is the polar opposite to Islam - both in terms of equality principles and level of integration into western culture. In fact it is amazing to think 500 or so years ago, sikhism was was apparently stating that men and women are equal in every regard - and yet here we are in 2016 and Islam won't even let a woman go to a Mosque

However that said, I do know plenty of Muslims who drink alcohol when we go out in London and some of the Muslim women I've gone out with would drink many under the table.

Personally the way I see this going is an ever increasing westernisation of Muslim women will change the landscape - the generation coming through are slowly turning their back on Islam in increasing numbers (relatively speaking) based on what I've seen in major urban areas.

The disillusionment with Islam from the generation coming through has increased (helped by science and being educated to demand more from life) and many now aspire /demand a better kind of life as a result. I know many Muslim women who wear the burka but will drink and have non-Muslim boyfriends / partners / husbands, and a few of them don't even bother to wear burkas now.

The change will come from within, but it will take time but some green shoots can be seen

[BigLion]

jjlynn27 said:

BigLion said:

Population trends are not that hard to forecast 50 years into the future - in fact it is rather straight forward, it's not like trying to predict whether it's going to be a white Xmas.

As a nation you have to plan for the future, with a mindset like yours we would never have bothered with the car or space exploration!

You are right, I'm the blinkered one with 'omg another islamist attack'. No, that was you wasn't it?

The whole 'oh "they'll" outnumber Christians' bs is just that, bs. Plan for the future? How are you going to 'plan' for the number of 'them' in the future?

'BigGirlsBlouse' more likely, stop being scared so much.

As for car and space exploration; .

Please don't overwhelm your post with facts as heaven forbid you might develop a more intelligent grasp of the subject matter. Anyhow you stick with the play on names and I'll continue to interact with the adults on this thread

[BigLion]

jjlynn27 said:

BigLion said:

Population trends are not that hard to forecast 50 years into the future - in fact it is rather straight forward, it's not like trying to predict whether it's going to be a white Xmas.

As a nation you have to plan for the future, with a mindset like yours we would never have bothered with the car or space exploration!

How do you 'plan' for population growth? Hand out more condoms to certain parts of society? Build the wall?

National infrastructure development as an example...

I suspect in your wild outrage you have probably confused planning for population growth as being some form of population control.

Btw if you want to control population just look at the policies that have / are being deployed in China, Japan and India. I'm not interested in debating the nature of their polices, but just want to help educate you.

[BigLion]

jjlynn27 said:

BigLion said:

jjlynn27 said:

BigLion said:

Population trends are not that hard to forecast 50 years into the future - in fact it is rather straight forward, it's not like trying to predict whether it's going to be a white Xmas.

As a nation you have to plan for the future, with a mindset like yours we would never have bothered with the car or space exploration!

How do you 'plan' for population growth? Hand out more condoms to certain parts of society? Build the wall?

National infrastructure development as an example...

I suspect in your wild outrage you have probably confused planning for population growth as being some form of population control.

Btw if you want to control population just look at the policies that have / are being deployed in China, Japan and India. I'm not interested in debating the nature of their polices, but just want to help educate you.

I'm not sure where you got 'wild outrage' from, but if it makes you feel any better, sure, why not.
Lets step back, I was laughing at the statement of someone as frightened as you about what'll happen in 50 to 70 years. It wasn't about population growth, it was about population growth of certain segments of society.

The point, and even you can understand, was that I not sure why should anyone particularly care if one set of people that believe in deity, outnumbers other group of people that believe in other deity in 50 - 70 years time. As for population growth predictions;

Please point me to my post which states I was in anyway concerned? Once you do that then we'll go from there.

[BigLion]

Pothole said:

BigLion said:

With yet another likely terrorist attack it feels like these are happening daily.

They're not, you're just being sucked in by the media/political hype

What do people think will be the end game in say 5 years time?

There is no end game. WW1 was ostensibly started by a terrorist organisation, not much has changed since.

Will people in the West start to feel more sympathetic towards the policies spouted by the likes of Trump, will society end up divided with Muslims seen as the common enemy despite the vast majority not condoning the violence or will we see an erosion of human rights akin to Guantanamo etc.?

Define "the West"

Define the west ? If you cannot make an interpretation I suggest you move on, I'm not here to argue the minutia of definitions with someone when we're so obviously talking at a macro level.

Honestly I would have thought people would have a life to be getting on with.

[BigLion]

jjlynn27 said:

BigLion said:

Please point me to my post which states I was in anyway concerned? Once you do that then we'll go from there.

Just to the left of the wild outrage post. HTH.

No I never, honestly you cannot have an intelligent debate with some people on here as they just lack the ability to coherently understand the discussion and who said what.

BigLion said:

jjlynn27 said:

Oakey said:

Sam All said:

I'd like to think that. However our fairness and our strength will be used against us in the shape of PC and such. I do not underestimate their intellect and their single mindedness, focus & sacrifice for their religion. Technology - Pakistan has nukes and no doubt there is a cosy arrangement with the KSA.

We are greater in number at present but the trend is crystal clear, because of the above, and they punch above their weight. Anyone want to bet that 10% of the UK will be Muslim by 2050? Probably sooner.

It will get messy and messier the longer we sleep walk into this. Respect for the host and their way of life.

Pretty sure it's already been estimated that ten percent of Europe will be muslim by 2030 (or it may be 2050)

edit: it's 2050 according to the Guardian and they'll outnumber Christians worldwide by 2070

Edited by Oakey on Saturday 23 July 18:56

You reckon anyone knows what's going to happen by 2070?

So sad to see grown men in fear over something that'll 'happen' 30-50 years from now.

Bonkers. And 'they' part is really quite telling.

Population trends are not that hard to forecast 50 years into the future - in fact it is rather straight forward, it's not like trying to predict whether it's going to be a white Xmas.

As a nation you have to plan for the future, with a mindset like yours we would never have bothered with the car or space exploration!

[BigLion]

rscott said:

fesuvious said:

Why should any part of shariah be accepted here?

It shouldn't. This isn't an Islamic country. There are plenty that are.

Frankly, on the basis that for tens of millions here the current justice and judicial system, while flawed, serves us just fine we need no Islamic concessions.

In fact, the very existence of separate Islamic councils, advisory panels etc etc underlines and makes very clear that not only can Islam not function within free democracy and the UK but it is utterly corrosive of the existing state of affairs.

Like I said, parts of Sharia law set out the rules of worship, exactly the same as Canon law does for some Christians. What's the problem with adopting that?

Also, we've allowed Halakha for decades here without any issues. That's the Jewish equivalent of Sharia and covers many of the same topics.

Why should we? Honestly this type of thing antagonises me a great deal.

What some people fail to realise is that the UK is an amazing country - we are free to practice our religion and build places of worship, we are allowed to wear religious articles, we have seen places of work accommodate religion where it can etc. etc. and yet certain religious groups are still not happy.

If anyone can show me a more flexible mainstream country then happy to take a look - but in the meantime compare the UK to most other countries and realise why this is one of the most accommodating countries in the world and we have no reason to accommodate outdated modes of thinking which are fundamentally counter to our country values.

[BigLion]

fesuvious said:

How about we just outlaw the practice of 'shariah patrols' and make it a custodial offence?

Exactly!

[BigLion]

rscott said:

AJL308 said:

The pork thing is one of the irrational things I was getting at in my previous post. Why pork? There is no reason for it. I can kind of see the reasoning behind alcohol but not pork. It's irrational. Religion is irrational.

Wikipedia is your friend - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_restrict... - references the quotes from various religious texts which forbid pork.

Or for Hindus - https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_cow

Pork is viewed as 'filthy meat'.

Rscott - a direct question :

Do you without any hesitation, wish that all Muslims terrorists who plan to attack civilians, whether in ISIS or otherwise, are the absolute scum of the earth and the world would be a better place if USA drones killed them all ?

[BigLion]

AJL308 said:

longtimeracer said:

Please accord Muslims with some respect, their religious view iabout pork is based on risks observed centuries ago that a parasite, trichinosis, can be contracted by eating pork, as it was endemic then- still is in some parts of the world. That might not be relevant now but it had a rational basis. Let's have a bit less knee jerk reaction guys. I too am ambivalent about religion btw, but believe we need a code of ethics otherwise the world would be a worse place than it is already- ( steps down from soap box)

This is the point though - 'centuries ago'. We live in the 21st Century now, not the 15th.

Not to accept that today there is little problem eating pork and storing it for eating, etc, is completely irrational. The fact that it has entrenched its self so deeply into religious ideology, even to the point that Muslims see pigs as 'offensive' to their sensibilities is tin foil hattery, quite frankly.

The fact that people should accord that stance with 'respect' is insulting.

I don't care what people practice I their religions providing it doesn't involve forced conversion or killing - the rest is no skin of my nose.

[BigLion]

rscott said:

BigLion said:

Pork is viewed as 'filthy meat'.

Rscott - a direct question :

Do you without any hesitation, wish that all Muslims terrorists who plan to attack civilians, whether in ISIS or otherwise, are the absolute scum of the earth and the world would be a better place if USA drones killed them all ?

I wish there weren't terrorists of any kind, religious or otherwise.
No, I wouldn't want US drones to take them out - I'd want it to be a combined force with many countries involved. No one country should be judge and executioner over others. Ideally it'd be a UN led mission involving more than just Western countries.

Leaving it to just the US would only lead to another round of terrorists in the future who set out to get their revenge on the (in their view) evil Western country who attacked them.

Good man - I've watched and read a lot and discussed with the Kurdish asylum seekers at my local barbers as to what ISIS did to the Kurds and fellow Sunnis - totally barbaric. I genuinely felt for the Kurdish people I spoke to who were no different to myself.

I hope one day the Kurds get their homeland and the rest of the Middle East some how works through this - the world is a fked up place and the more we can galvanise ourselves around a common set of principals in relation to freedom, right to live without fear and the right to self govern the better.

The worst thing is it does feel Saudi Arabia are pulling the strings in the background and yet the West will never hold them to account on either that or the barbaric human rights record, that's when our championing of democracy is lost as we lose the moral high ground as to the rationale for our pseudo occupation of the Middle East.

One thing for sure, Blair and Bush have blood on their hands.

[BigLion]

mondeoman said:

AJS- said:

I think the pork thingb is quite straightforward. It's safe now because we can store and cook it easily, and can clean the utensils properly etc. Without the ability to do that pork is dangerous. Of course the people prohibiting pork millenia ago didn't know the micro biology of it, but they pulled a clever trick as presumably the people who shunned pork got sick less often.

How chicken escaped this I have no idea?

I understood that pork was considered unclean because, back in the day, when butchered, un-domesticated pig meat was full of lesions and boils, so definitely unsettling and best left alone in favour of goat or camel or beef or lamb or chicken.

Cut and paste:

Prototypically “clean” land animals were supposed to have four legs and cloven hooves and to chew the cud; pigs were an “abomination” because they were four legged, cloven-hoofed beasts that did not chew the cud. “Clean” beasts of the air were supposed to have feathers and to fly with wings; therefore, hopping insects were “unclean” because they had six legs, neither walked nor flew, and lacked feathers. “Clean” water animals were supposed to have fins and scales; shrimp were forbidden because, although they lived in the sea, they lacked fins and scales.

[BigLion]

I think we might have already lost the fight based on the results from channel 4 undertaking the most robust survey (on the matter) ever undertaken.

100,000 British Muslims support suicide bombings.

2 million British Muslim wouldn't tell authorities if someone they knew was going to Syria.

[BigLion]

Likes Fast Cars said:

Always a good read:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/the-conservative-...

Interesting read - this may ring true:

Why do observant Muslims panic and get violently provoked at the slightest sight of “sinning” and “sinners”? Why are they so afraid of abandoning their beliefs when others, not themselves, sin? Why do they think, for instance, the sight of someone not fasting during Ramadan - someone who may not even be Muslim, or who may be sick, or who may be pregnant, etc. - and eating, drinking or smoking publicly may impair their own fasting? Why do they fear that they may be sinning when someone sitting at the next table at a restaurant is drinking alcohol? What so deeply annoys them when someone else sins? Do they think, like homosexuality, sinning can also be contagious? And are they sure they are sin-free? Is anyone?

There must be a rich menu of explanations. But one answer is probably hidden in the observant Muslim’s “conquest-fetish.” This is about his obsession with spreading his own (and only his own) practice of Islam to non-Muslim, not-Muslim-enough, and not-pious-enough lands. These lands could be a foreign country, or another Turkish city, or his own neighborhood. Call it “infidelphobia.”

Edited by BigLion on Wednesday 27th July 22:05

[BigLion]

rscott said:

BigLion said:

I think we might have already lost the fight based on the results from channel 4 undertaking the most robust survey (on the matter) ever undertaken.

100,000 British Muslims support suicide bombings.

2 million British Muslim wouldn't tell authorities if someone they knew was going to Syria.

The same survey said 600,000 of the UK population also supported suicide bombers and that a larger percentage of the general population wouldn't tell on someone going off to join IS.

The survey isn't the most robust ever taken - it excluded half the Muslims in the UK because they lived in areas with less than 20% Muslims.

A spokesperson for Channel 4 told HuffPost UK on Monday, the programme would be “very clear” about how the survey was conducted.

“Around 50 per cent of British Muslims live in the areas we surveyed. ICM, which is one of the UK’s leading polling organisations, with a long track record of producing credible and accurate surveys, is satisfied that the results allow us to draw strong conclusions about the views of UK Muslims.

“There is no evidence to suggest that Muslims have radically different attitudes to the issues surveyed depending on whether they live in areas of more than, or less, than 20 per cent Muslim population.”

[BigLion]

Some British Muslims have rejected the conclusions of the survey, which they say uses a flawed methodology because it was conducted in areas where Muslims make up more than 20% of the population, compared to 5.5% overall. They say the survey results are skewed because they are indicative of Muslims in these areas and not of British Muslims as a whole.

In an interview with CNN, however, ICM Director Martin Boon said that more than half of all British Muslims live in areas that are more than 20% Muslim and that the survey findings are sound. "In my view, this is the most rigorous survey of Muslims outside of the largest and most expensive surveys conducted by the UK government," Boon said.

The president of the British Polling Council, John Curtice, told CNN that ICM had followed standard methods of polling ethnic minorities in the UK.

Unlike many other surveys of Muslim opinion, which have usually been conducted by telephone or online, ICM used face-to-face, in-home research to question a representative sample of 1,081 Muslims across Britain.

[BigLion]

Sir Gerald Howarth, Tory MP for Aldershot, said:

"Three cheers for Trevor Phillips. I think he is absolutely right. There's an element in the Muslim community which reject our values, while enjoying our tolerance.

"We are a tolerant nation because we are routed in the Christian faith, which is a tolerant religion. As our own religious observance declines, a vacuum is being created into which the hardline Islamist community is stepping.

"We have been a very complacent society."

Allison Pearson, a columnist for the Daily Telegraph, called for an immediate ban on all Sharia courts in Britain and called on the government to ensure that all citizens are subject to British law. She summed up the British predicament:

"This is serious. Unless we succeed, the live-and-let-live attitude which makes Britain such a great place could end up being its death warrant."