Brexit Celebrations
Discussion
So much to celebrate and celebration season is fast approaching.
Anyone have any plans either for this year or on going? And when?
June 23rd to celebrate the referendum?
The day Article 50 notice is given?
The day we finally complete negotiations?
Nigel Farage's birthday?
All of the above?
Anyone have any plans either for this year or on going? And when?
June 23rd to celebrate the referendum?
The day Article 50 notice is given?
The day we finally complete negotiations?
Nigel Farage's birthday?
All of the above?
Self determination and democracy are the pay off. I don't need to wait 5 years and hear how a phone poll of people with an A level in Economics estimate that we could have 2.479% more GDPs if we stayed in.
Rubbing remainers nose in it is a sometimes amusing fringe benefit but I do genuinely think that it was and will be the biggest step forward for democracy and liberty in Europe since the fall of communism and deserves to be celebrated.
Rubbing remainers nose in it is a sometimes amusing fringe benefit but I do genuinely think that it was and will be the biggest step forward for democracy and liberty in Europe since the fall of communism and deserves to be celebrated.
I think that's a bit apologetic. I'll bet that in 10 years time fewer than 20% of people will want to rejoin the EU. Probably less than 10%.
I see Brexit as an opportunity for a great national renewal, both in practical terms of improving the way our democracy works and in less tangible terms of renewing our vision of Britain and it's place in the world.
I see Brexit as an opportunity for a great national renewal, both in practical terms of improving the way our democracy works and in less tangible terms of renewing our vision of Britain and it's place in the world.
Sometimes commitment and enthusiasm are a major factor in making something a success. Brexit seems like just such a situation where limping along thinking that we might have made a mistake will be destructive, making us accept a worse deal with the EU and be less ambitious with the rest of the world, all the while being careful not to upset what I believe is a fairly small number of hardcore remainers who will never be happy with anything and who will pin on Brexit everything that happens in the next 30 years that would have been blamed on Thatcher for the last 30.
If we grab it by the b
ks and make some radical reforms at home (a proper second chamber, a meaningful bill of rights, a genuinely balanced budget for the long term) and advance a big, global agenda in trade and foreign policy then I think it is far more likely to succeed.
Some flag waving and fireworks on a nice summer's evening should not be seen as a divisive dig at people who thought differently last year but as a positive and inclusive step towards national renewal.
If we grab it by the b
ks and make some radical reforms at home (a proper second chamber, a meaningful bill of rights, a genuinely balanced budget for the long term) and advance a big, global agenda in trade and foreign policy then I think it is far more likely to succeed.Some flag waving and fireworks on a nice summer's evening should not be seen as a divisive dig at people who thought differently last year but as a positive and inclusive step towards national renewal.
Vocal Minority said:
Thirded
Not 52/48.
It wouldn't have been contentious if it had that level of support.SKP555 said:
Some flag waving and fireworks on a nice summer's evening should not be seen as a divisive dig at people who thought differently last year but as a positive and inclusive step towards national renewal.
This only really works when it was something people were broadly united behind in the first place. Maybe 70/30. Or 80/20 even better. Not 52/48.
A more complete answer...
It's the fact thay it's contentious which gives it it's significance.
It would have been easier and less risky to simply have stayed where we were, and been subsumed into the declining European project.
People chose to vote leave in spite of the upheaval and the risk, and largely people did so out of a belief in self determination and democratic government. Even if you are one of those who didn't want the difficulties this may throw up in the short term or who puts these things lower down your list of priorities than stability and immediate prosperity, it is a courageous and principled decision.
Look at it like packing in your comfortable 9-5 job which has paid your bills for 20 years because it was destroying your soul.
Further, I believe this makes the opposition to leaving ultimately hollow and short term. The only really strong arguments to remain centred on the disruption leaving could cause to trade, travel, visa arrangements etc. They were a powerful argument for not changing anything but after leaving they will never be any aort of argument for rejoining.
For that you would need an ideological and emotional commitment to the EU and that is something that barely seems to exist in this country in the way it does on the continent. And even amongst those who do hold such a view it's not axiomatic that Britain should be a part of it.
This will fade away very quickly and I am confident that in 10 years time there will be no more question of Britain joining the EU than there is of us joining the Eurozone.
Lastly, this will not go away.
Even if the government decides to can the whole thing tomorrow we won't be back to where we were before the referendum. We would be a proven reluctant member of a deeply unpopular EU whose electorate had been betrayed and whose democracy was a laughing stock.
So whatever you thought was the best course of action last summer the important thing now is to make the absolute best of what happens next, not attempt some apologetic damage limitation exercise or hope it will all go away. Scanning the polls for signs of Bregret that never come or manufacturing spikes in "hate crimes" in the hope that a tenuous connection with racism will discredit the whole venture.
If not Brexit, support self determination and democracy with enthusiasm because it's the best chance we have of making it work.
It's the fact thay it's contentious which gives it it's significance.
It would have been easier and less risky to simply have stayed where we were, and been subsumed into the declining European project.
People chose to vote leave in spite of the upheaval and the risk, and largely people did so out of a belief in self determination and democratic government. Even if you are one of those who didn't want the difficulties this may throw up in the short term or who puts these things lower down your list of priorities than stability and immediate prosperity, it is a courageous and principled decision.
Look at it like packing in your comfortable 9-5 job which has paid your bills for 20 years because it was destroying your soul.
Further, I believe this makes the opposition to leaving ultimately hollow and short term. The only really strong arguments to remain centred on the disruption leaving could cause to trade, travel, visa arrangements etc. They were a powerful argument for not changing anything but after leaving they will never be any aort of argument for rejoining.
For that you would need an ideological and emotional commitment to the EU and that is something that barely seems to exist in this country in the way it does on the continent. And even amongst those who do hold such a view it's not axiomatic that Britain should be a part of it.
This will fade away very quickly and I am confident that in 10 years time there will be no more question of Britain joining the EU than there is of us joining the Eurozone.
Lastly, this will not go away.
Even if the government decides to can the whole thing tomorrow we won't be back to where we were before the referendum. We would be a proven reluctant member of a deeply unpopular EU whose electorate had been betrayed and whose democracy was a laughing stock.
So whatever you thought was the best course of action last summer the important thing now is to make the absolute best of what happens next, not attempt some apologetic damage limitation exercise or hope it will all go away. Scanning the polls for signs of Bregret that never come or manufacturing spikes in "hate crimes" in the hope that a tenuous connection with racism will discredit the whole venture.
If not Brexit, support self determination and democracy with enthusiasm because it's the best chance we have of making it work.
Tryke3 said:
Who in the goverment do you think is capable of doing any of that? U turn after u turn, current goverment is going on full retard imo
Anyway, bet the EU will still be here stronger than ever in the next 10 years. I have travelled extensively with work in the last 2 years, EU area especially the old eastern block is unrecognisable from even 5 years ago. The way i see it populism needs to have its 5 minutes of being in power, it will quickly die out. Hungary will show that
We don't have to rely entirely on the government to do it. They will do what gets them elected. Anyway, bet the EU will still be here stronger than ever in the next 10 years. I have travelled extensively with work in the last 2 years, EU area especially the old eastern block is unrecognisable from even 5 years ago. The way i see it populism needs to have its 5 minutes of being in power, it will quickly die out. Hungary will show that
Edited by Tryke3 on Friday 17th March 02:08
As for fleeting populism - do you think that we will just quietly forget about it and rejoin the EU in a couple of years?
Farage's birthday was a joke...
Zetec
As above, I don't see why it needs to be divisive.
The decision to leave was divisive primarily because it runs the risk of economic instability. I really didn't hear any other argument gain any serious traction throughout the campaign.
Once we are out and this reason is irrelevant we are left with the reason we voted out, which was largely about democratic self governance.
Economic stability is a good thing, and I would admit that the Leave side were cavalier about this. I certainly was and would have voted Leave on principle at almost any economic cost.
I know there are a few Remain voters who ideologically and emotionally love the EU. However I don't believe that is anything like 48%. Maybe more like 4%.
I am fairly sure that the vast majority of the 48% support the principles of democracy and self determination in abstract, even if they disagree with that particular manifestation of it.
As the pragmatic reasons for not rocking the boat fade away why shouldn't remainers celebrate the fact that people stood up for this principle?
Zetec
As above, I don't see why it needs to be divisive.
The decision to leave was divisive primarily because it runs the risk of economic instability. I really didn't hear any other argument gain any serious traction throughout the campaign.
Once we are out and this reason is irrelevant we are left with the reason we voted out, which was largely about democratic self governance.
Economic stability is a good thing, and I would admit that the Leave side were cavalier about this. I certainly was and would have voted Leave on principle at almost any economic cost.
I know there are a few Remain voters who ideologically and emotionally love the EU. However I don't believe that is anything like 48%. Maybe more like 4%.
I am fairly sure that the vast majority of the 48% support the principles of democracy and self determination in abstract, even if they disagree with that particular manifestation of it.
As the pragmatic reasons for not rocking the boat fade away why shouldn't remainers celebrate the fact that people stood up for this principle?
Vocal Minority said:
SKP555 said:
Farage's birthday was a joke...
I know there are a few Remain voters who ideologically and emotionally love the EU. However I don't believe that is anything like 48%. Maybe more like 4%.
really?I know there are a few Remain voters who ideologically and emotionally love the EU. However I don't believe that is anything like 48%. Maybe more like 4%.
Who are they? What do they think? And where were they during the campaign?
I'm not talking about the professionally upset or those who vaguely think it's all a bit jingoistic and maybe racist. Where is the actual positive case for the EU? And who is making it?
Zetec
Ok here we are. My made up figures were surprisingly accurate.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-unite...
(About half way down)
Sovereignty was by far the biggest driver of the leave vote, well ahead of even immigration.
Just under one in five (17%) said their main reason was that the UK would “become more isolated from its friends and neighbours”, and fewer than one in ten (9%) said it was “a strong attachment to the EU and its shared history, culture and traditions.”
So 9% of Remain voters, which is a smidge over 4% of those who voted.
I suspect as those young people age they will realise that having control of who makes decisions and how, and the ability to hold them to account offers a far better chance of a good standard of living than any trade deal ever will.
Why see it as a slap in the face?
It's not (for me anyway) about laughing at people who are worried abouf their job or about saying we won you lost. It's about building a unifying vision for what we do after this now that the decision is made.
Ok here we are. My made up figures were surprisingly accurate.
http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-unite...
(About half way down)
Sovereignty was by far the biggest driver of the leave vote, well ahead of even immigration.
Just under one in five (17%) said their main reason was that the UK would “become more isolated from its friends and neighbours”, and fewer than one in ten (9%) said it was “a strong attachment to the EU and its shared history, culture and traditions.”
So 9% of Remain voters, which is a smidge over 4% of those who voted.
I suspect as those young people age they will realise that having control of who makes decisions and how, and the ability to hold them to account offers a far better chance of a good standard of living than any trade deal ever will.
Why see it as a slap in the face?
It's not (for me anyway) about laughing at people who are worried abouf their job or about saying we won you lost. It's about building a unifying vision for what we do after this now that the decision is made.
Scotland leaving won't dampen my enthusiasm at all. It will be sad in a way but the divergence between politics north and south of the border is nearly impossible to reconcile in or out of the EU.
If they figure that their deep fried bread is buttered on that side then so be it.
If there is a chance to save the union it lies not in an uneasy half way out compromise with the EU but in a sensible and consistent settlement within the UK which is fair to everyone.
If they figure that their deep fried bread is buttered on that side then so be it.
If there is a chance to save the union it lies not in an uneasy half way out compromise with the EU but in a sensible and consistent settlement within the UK which is fair to everyone.
Zetec-S said:
Imagine if you worked for a large company who announced a big round of redundancies. And after the announcement they said something along the lines of "we know it's a difficult time, but we all need to work together to help make the company stronger. We hope you'll all join us later for the company bbq" 
Well you know what?If the alternative is the company going bust and everyone being unemployed, and I'm getting a pay out, why the hell not go to the bbq?
Keep on good terms, and go back as a contractor on better money when things pick up.
(I also might just like beer and bbqs. It's Aruban flag day tomorrow, if anyone fancies it?)
Kermit power said:
I don't find the outcome embarrassing, and ultimately I think history will just show is to be the first nation to leave a project that has been doomed since the introduction of the Euro without political union, but I do find many of people's reasons for voting rather embarrassing, as they suggest that I live in a country with many people incapable of actually researching their own facts before taking a decision.
One huge positive to come out of it is that our national politicians will no longer have the usually utterly untrue excuse of "we'd like to do something different here, but EU law won't let us".
As per the Ashcroft polls above, far and away the biggest reason Leave voters cited for voting that way was to have decision making. A desire for self determination and democratic control aren't things to be embarrassed of. One huge positive to come out of it is that our national politicians will no longer have the usually utterly untrue excuse of "we'd like to do something different here, but EU law won't let us".
33% said controlling immigration which you could call bigotry or xenophobia, but you could also explain some of that as people defending their economic interests and quality of life, as per the main argument against leaving.
I can understand disagreeing, but don't get the embarrassment.
ATG said:
SKP555 said:
ATG
Why are you embarrassed that people wanted democratic control? Embarrassed in front of who?
We already had democratic control. It shows an embarrassing lack of understanding to think that we didn't. We've cut our noses off to spite our faces. Why are you embarrassed that people wanted democratic control? Embarrassed in front of who?
Who exactly is it that you feel will think less of you for this difference if opinion with your compatriots?
ATG said:
That's right, because they've demonstrated they don't understand the strength of their own democratic system (which means they don't value it) nor do they understand how the EU actually operates.
It makes the UK look foolish in the eyes of anyone with the vaguest interest in economics and global politics. The outcome of the vote was met with a mixture of bemusement, shock and piss-taking from the overwhelming number of my friends and contacts overseas.
Or maybe we do understand it and have a different opinion of the merits of EU membership? It makes the UK look foolish in the eyes of anyone with the vaguest interest in economics and global politics. The outcome of the vote was met with a mixture of bemusement, shock and piss-taking from the overwhelming number of my friends and contacts overseas.
Your foreign friends and contacts having a limited understanding of British politics and a particular sense of humour might make you feel a bit awkward but it hardly constitutes a reason to stay in the EU. Are you just being a bit thin skinned?
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