Consumer Focus faces axe in quango cull
Discussion
Consumer Focus, the body set up by the last Government to represent consumers and challenge companies, will be scrapped, the BBC has learned.
Other consumer bodies facing abolition include the Office of Fair Trading and Consumer Direct.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/9077000.stm
As someone who has worked in the consumer protection industry and am a real believer in consumer power this can only be a disaster for consumers. There are already MORE issues than resources can cope with so I don't see how this will help.
CAB cannot replace Consumer Direct because they don't have the resources or skills, hell Consumer Direct are lacking resources & skills as they are being squeezed financially.
The idea that local authority Trading Standards can pick up the slack when they are also facing cuts themselves is clearly silly.
All it will lead to is companies getting away with more murder than they already do (and believe me, there is a lot of bad stuff going on out there!.
Other consumer bodies facing abolition include the Office of Fair Trading and Consumer Direct.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/9077000.stm
As someone who has worked in the consumer protection industry and am a real believer in consumer power this can only be a disaster for consumers. There are already MORE issues than resources can cope with so I don't see how this will help.
CAB cannot replace Consumer Direct because they don't have the resources or skills, hell Consumer Direct are lacking resources & skills as they are being squeezed financially.
The idea that local authority Trading Standards can pick up the slack when they are also facing cuts themselves is clearly silly.
All it will lead to is companies getting away with more murder than they already do (and believe me, there is a lot of bad stuff going on out there!.
tank slapper said:
Mojooo said:
the BBC has learned.
I hate that phrase. What they actually mean is, some quangocrat who is about to lose his job has leaked it to them.Why do we need so many publicly funded organisations doing ostensibly the same job? Sounds like a good idea to rationalise them.
OFT does a range of things like credit and estate agency works and well as looking at national issues and enforcement.
consumer direct provides the advice to consumers for individual problems
FourWheelDrift said:
"Their activities will be taken over by Citizens Advice and Trading Standards offices."
What's wrong then, no service will be lost.
CAB - they dont have the skills to be advising people on most matters. CAB advisors must have to know a HUGE deal of stuff and they cannot be expected to know everything. My expeirence is that CAB will send people to consumer direct when they cannot answer their query, not the other way around.What's wrong then, no service will be lost.
TS - most TS depts got rid of their telephone based advice services when CD opened, so most of them dont have the manpower or civil advice knowledge to be dealing with the workload. Trading Standards depts are facing cuts - how are they going to increase staff to cope with demand?
I know of a couple of TS depts so low on numbers they wont respond to 99% of consumer queries sent to them from consumer direct. therefore, unless they hire and train new staff (unlikely) people in their region now wont have access to ANY advice from a proper advisor unless they go to CAB (which aint ideal).
Consumer direct also allows TS depts to see which companies nationally are most complained about and take action - that source of intelligence will now be gone as TS depts will presumably be collecting data only for their own region.
Parrot of Doom said:
Meh, I go to the internet for such advice. I don't recall any consumer bodies ever advising people to challenge council parking tickets, or ignore private parking charges.
Why would they?They will advise you of the ins and outs of your contractual rights for private parking tickets. I know as well the data that gets sent to consumder direct is then collated further up the chain to deal with 'problem traders' including private parking companies.
example: http://www.wiltsglosstandard.co.uk/carsold/car_new...ruthlesswheel_clamping_scam/
With regard to your other point - there are lots of people who dont have access to the internet or cannot get answers to more complex situation. On top of that if you actually wnat atcion taken against a company you have to report it to some authrotiy, just whining on pistonheads about clampers achieves nothing.
maser_spyder said:
Putting everybody under one roof, with a single (albeit larger) management structure makes perfect sense to me.
I agree, and that was what happened with Consumer Direct, a more national and consistent way of providing basic advice to consumers. It also meant people in areas with poor councils got consistent advice like everyone else.AFAIK the OFT is actually in charge of CD but things could be merged and costs saved - not gotten rid of.
freecar said:
Having never heard of the above quango, I couldn't give a toss whether thy exist or not!
I'd like to see how many people they help per year for what cost before I decide whether it was a good idea or not. I'm also an avid reader of internet forum and have never seen anyone advising somebody to go to the quango so can't think it will be a tremendous loss to society.
Oh, the old 'i dont know what they do so i dont care'I'd like to see how many people they help per year for what cost before I decide whether it was a good idea or not. I'm also an avid reader of internet forum and have never seen anyone advising somebody to go to the quango so can't think it will be a tremendous loss to society.
quite ridiculous, you could eaisly find out now you know.
the OFT has a list of things listed on its website.
with regards to CD...
Consumer Direct advisors answered more than 1.5 million calls and emails in calendar year 2009
EDLT said:
I assume they are going to merge the quangos together so nobody loses their job...
I doubt it, the way I read it is that both OFT and CD will lose jobs )possibly with the whole of CD being shut down and responsibility going to Trading Standards departments who wont actually pick up the slack to the same level.To address the other persons point, just because you have never needed CD or Trading Standards doesn't mean there isn't a huge demand for them - as I said the demand is far outwieghing the resources IMO.
s3fella said:
Mojocvh said:
s3fella said:
I am a consumer. I have never heard fo these people, nor had cause to contact them. Nor can I envisage ever having to do so.
I don't know of anyone who has contacted them, or used their services.
Therefore I reckon it will be no great loss of service, in the scale of things.
CAB do a LOT of good stuff.I don't know of anyone who has contacted them, or used their services.
Therefore I reckon it will be no great loss of service, in the scale of things.
presumably for the CAB this will lead to an increase in demand
mind you i thought CAB was mainly made up of volunteers?
MiniMan64 said:
I think you might of posted in the wrong place mate if you thing you'll get sympathy for quango cuts here.
I don't know what CD is so I doubt I'll miss them.
I know, I knowI don't know what CD is so I doubt I'll miss them.
That said, to call them a quango and bin it is silly because its all about consumer protection, which IMO should be an important thing in the governments eye and certainly a thing that is provided as a matter of course.
Next time someone comes on here aksing about a clocked car or dodgy electrical appliance they bought we'll have to let them take some of the incorrect advice given on here.
tinman0 said:
Mojooo said:
FourWheelDrift said:
"Their activities will be taken over by Citizens Advice and Trading Standards offices."
What's wrong then, no service will be lost.
CAB - they dont have the skills to be advising people on most matters. CAB advisors must have to know a HUGE deal of stuff and they cannot be expected to know everything. What's wrong then, no service will be lost.
A consumer and company are aligned in a contract. Has the contract been fulfilled, yes or no.
In my experience (and I have used CAB), your adviser will go off for a few minutes (in my case 20minutes) and dig out the relevant materials to guide you in the right direction.
Consumer Law is not that difficult at the end of the day.
There is more to it anyway, are the CAB going to feed that info through to TS depts so prosecutions can be taken against and serial offenders identified? i dout it, because you will have X amount of TS depts trying to make X amounts of links with numerous CAB around the country.
tinman0 said:
Mojooo said:
I wont be affected by these cuts directly but i definitley see a massive disadvantage to UK consumers.
Well, somehow the British consumer got along just fine beforehand, so I imagine they'll be okay in the future.The worry is the slack will not be taken up by anyone if these resources are taken away.
Having worked on the inside I can categorically tell you there are thousands upon thousands of people being ripped off on a large scale all over the UK.
If you watch Watchdog/Rogue Traders, i can tell you there are hundreds if not thousands of rogue traders liek them up and down the country.
tinman0 said:
Mojooo said:
There is more to it anyway, are the CAB going to feed that info through to TS depts so prosecutions can be taken against and serial offenders identified? i dout it, because you will have X amount of TS depts trying to make X amounts of links with numerous CAB around the country.
No, because what happened in the past is that the consumer would go directly to the local TS office who would take it up.I've had TS on the phone before and they do follow these things up.
But the idea that there are tens of thousands of companies up and down the UK ripping people off is stupid. Yes, there are some companies who do need regulation, but by and large they are the tiny minority.
The only reason the dragnet has been widened is because people 'think' they have more rights than they do. You get a bottle of marmalade with a dead rat in it does not equal a lottery win, it merely gets a refund or replacement and a bouquet of flowers saying "sorry".
The advantage of CD is that it kept data sharing at a national level, without it data will only be kept by each local authority. The worser scenario is that people go to CAB and the data doesn't ever get to a TS dept.
Lets put it this way, from what I know from my work in the industry... there are currently some TS depts that will not respond to MOST (i.e almost all) consumer queries because they don't have the resources or they are focussing only only the most serious issues. This is bearing in mind all calls are filtered by Consumer Direct and everyone will at least get the basic help they need by CD first.
Before CD came into being TS depts would have call handling staff to help people but now most depts have gotten rid as CD does most of that work (I know the one TS dept I know well kept some call staff as they dealt with the more serious issues that required in depth help.
The worry is that these TS depts simply will not return to their old levels, so for many people just ringing the TS office will not result in a positive reaction.
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In the area I worked in which was just one county the number of rogue trademens easily run into the hundreds. That is before you start including all the shoddy online retailers, high pressure sellers and companies in general that are not following the law.
If you saw the data you would agree that we are far away from living in a place where businesses are honest.
A lot of the calls will go down as intelligence - i.e someone moaning about a pricing error ar Tesco
The key thing you have to remember is that its intelligence. People reporting things is good because it helps you get a picture of what is going on.
It people are reporting misleading prices at Tesco regularly then it becomes a different issues doesn't it - even if the issue was a minor one for that particular customer.
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In some of the more serious cases I have seen it is usually the case that the number of consumers that actually complain about an issue is quite small, but when the investigation is done and you look through records the number of people affected is much greater.
The key thing you have to remember is that its intelligence. People reporting things is good because it helps you get a picture of what is going on.
It people are reporting misleading prices at Tesco regularly then it becomes a different issues doesn't it - even if the issue was a minor one for that particular customer.
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In some of the more serious cases I have seen it is usually the case that the number of consumers that actually complain about an issue is quite small, but when the investigation is done and you look through records the number of people affected is much greater.
tinman0 said:
Mojooo said:
Consumer Direct pass all of the data they get onto each TS dept. All TS depts can access CD to see what is going on at a national level. That link MUST be retained.
It'a just another level of middle managers justifying their existence.Local TS offices were perfectly capable of understanding businesses in their local areas.
Sorry, but I've spent time on the phone in a previous business with our local Trading Standards office explaining why a customer was upset and how they've been banged to rights for their own stupidity (usually the inability to follow instructions to upload a website) to know how the system works.
What if you have a company operating in a region and they are doing bad things across 6 counties (or if they are in London and doing bad things over 15 of londons councils!) - its easier to get an idea of the scale of things.
If we take rogue tradesman as an example
They may live in one county and operate in just that county - or they may operate in their own county and the neighbouring county or just everywhere/nationally.
The point is if the data becomes localised to each council area then its much harder to see the scale of what is going on in the bigger picture.
Through a lot of extra leg work the local TS may be able to collate that data but by the time they realise its a serious problem the number of customers affect might be huge.
edit - the govt didnt interfere and add a layer, so i am not sure what you are on about, consumer direct had its own function and a massive advantage of that was it joined up TS in many ways
i daresay a national TS service would be better than the local ones we have.
the oft is soemthing of an extra layer but the fact that they provide national stuff is their advantage.
They may live in one county and operate in just that county - or they may operate in their own county and the neighbouring county or just everywhere/nationally.
The point is if the data becomes localised to each council area then its much harder to see the scale of what is going on in the bigger picture.
Through a lot of extra leg work the local TS may be able to collate that data but by the time they realise its a serious problem the number of customers affect might be huge.
edit - the govt didnt interfere and add a layer, so i am not sure what you are on about, consumer direct had its own function and a massive advantage of that was it joined up TS in many ways
i daresay a national TS service would be better than the local ones we have.
the oft is soemthing of an extra layer but the fact that they provide national stuff is their advantage.
Edited by Mojooo on Sunday 10th October 00:49
Edited by Mojooo on Sunday 10th October 00:49
Not really.
Each TS uses its own IT system and they are not all linked to eachother.
But the Consumer Direct data is accessible to all of them. So chances are the Consumer direct IT system will go and each TS dept continues to use its own system
Presumably the Consumer direct phone number will be turned off and everyone now phones their local council.
The other main issue is that the time and effort being spent to train consumer direct staff has been wasted unless they can now find jobs in TS departments.
Of course TS depts wont be hiring ALL of these people (if any) so you end up with a shortage of knowledgable staff in the system available to assist.
Each TS uses its own IT system and they are not all linked to eachother.
But the Consumer Direct data is accessible to all of them. So chances are the Consumer direct IT system will go and each TS dept continues to use its own system
Presumably the Consumer direct phone number will be turned off and everyone now phones their local council.
The other main issue is that the time and effort being spent to train consumer direct staff has been wasted unless they can now find jobs in TS departments.
Of course TS depts wont be hiring ALL of these people (if any) so you end up with a shortage of knowledgable staff in the system available to assist.
Guardian has an article on it now too:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/oct/10/consum...
Interesting that they highlight TS will now be responsible for taking action against energy companies.
consumer focus just got back £70m for consumers - how do they expect a local dept to take on a national issues, especially when they wont have the skill or resources.
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if you listen to the BBC Money Box program they have a guy on their from Is it Fair who says consumer focus is not needed as WHICH can do the same thing. another guy who worked for which for 13 years say no way could they. A guy from consumer focus also says no way, because Which dont even have any legislative powers.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/oct/10/consum...
Interesting that they highlight TS will now be responsible for taking action against energy companies.
consumer focus just got back £70m for consumers - how do they expect a local dept to take on a national issues, especially when they wont have the skill or resources.
--
if you listen to the BBC Money Box program they have a guy on their from Is it Fair who says consumer focus is not needed as WHICH can do the same thing. another guy who worked for which for 13 years say no way could they. A guy from consumer focus also says no way, because Which dont even have any legislative powers.
elster - yes thats the theory but I think its pretty bvious councils will not be employing more staff and the IT system to be impemented to over 150 odd councils all at once? don't think so.
turbobloke -i dont doubt the afforability (well, maybe just a little)- i was just making the case for them to be kept and the undoubted mess that will be left once they are closed down.
turbobloke -i dont doubt the afforability (well, maybe just a little)- i was just making the case for them to be kept and the undoubted mess that will be left once they are closed down.
loafer123 said:
Mojooo said:
Not really.
Each TS uses its own IT system and they are not all linked to eachother.
But the Consumer Direct data is accessible to all of them. So chances are the Consumer direct IT system will go and each TS dept continues to use its own system
Presumably the Consumer direct phone number will be turned off and everyone now phones their local council.
Perhaps neighbouring TS department should meet occasionally, have a coffee and a gossip, and see where they have cross-over cases? I mean, it's not exactly rocket science, now is it?Each TS uses its own IT system and they are not all linked to eachother.
But the Consumer Direct data is accessible to all of them. So chances are the Consumer direct IT system will go and each TS dept continues to use its own system
Presumably the Consumer direct phone number will be turned off and everyone now phones their local council.
and again, that wouldn't really help in a situiation where for example someone had set up a website and taken 5 people for £5000 if they were in 5 local authorities all 100 miles away from eachother. even if it was bought up in a regional meeting you may only get 1 or 2 customers per regional area (which wont show the issue as serious as it actually is).
Coincidentally I was at the O2 arena this week and they had CD number printed on the back of their tickets..
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I guess that 70m refers to the total cost of running CD? I imagine the majority of it will be the cost of call centre advisors. Yes it will be a huge saving. So we will either end up without those resources now or that money just being spent using different tax money and putting those staff elsewhere. I think we all know what the outcome will be.
A quick wiki search shows that here are almost 200 different councils in England/Wales/Scotland. Each with their own TS dept, own IT dept and own database software licences (not to mention the cost of change). And you think it will be possible to get them all to use the same thing? The only way that would happen is if they were forced to by central Govt and I doubt that will happen.
There is *already* a need for a database that offers more features than CD provides for TS and they havent been able to come up with a national one for everyone to use (or get them to use it - even on a regional level) so i dont see this being any different.
Anyhow, this discussion doesnt really seem to be moving in any direction...
I would love for a more coherent approach to the whole thing but it would only work if Govt forced through changes and infact the best way forward would be to have a national combination of CD and TS depts.
The people on here that think its a pointless service, be that as it may, its only when you end up with a family member that has been ripped off or scammed that you need assistance and that is when you will probably find/seek out CD (or the lack of it)
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I guess that 70m refers to the total cost of running CD? I imagine the majority of it will be the cost of call centre advisors. Yes it will be a huge saving. So we will either end up without those resources now or that money just being spent using different tax money and putting those staff elsewhere. I think we all know what the outcome will be.
A quick wiki search shows that here are almost 200 different councils in England/Wales/Scotland. Each with their own TS dept, own IT dept and own database software licences (not to mention the cost of change). And you think it will be possible to get them all to use the same thing? The only way that would happen is if they were forced to by central Govt and I doubt that will happen.
There is *already* a need for a database that offers more features than CD provides for TS and they havent been able to come up with a national one for everyone to use (or get them to use it - even on a regional level) so i dont see this being any different.
Anyhow, this discussion doesnt really seem to be moving in any direction...
I would love for a more coherent approach to the whole thing but it would only work if Govt forced through changes and infact the best way forward would be to have a national combination of CD and TS depts.
The people on here that think its a pointless service, be that as it may, its only when you end up with a family member that has been ripped off or scammed that you need assistance and that is when you will probably find/seek out CD (or the lack of it)
MSE is a good site and it only highlights how weak consumers are in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't confuse his website for the kind of work some of these other organsiations do.
One thing is clear, consumers need empowering and by removing these organisations that will only set things back.
I think the msitake some people make is that they assume consumers are well informed and capable - that is clearly not the case in a large proportion of cases.
One thing is clear, consumers need empowering and by removing these organisations that will only set things back.
I think the msitake some people make is that they assume consumers are well informed and capable - that is clearly not the case in a large proportion of cases.
hornetrider said:
Mojooo said:
I think the msitake some people make is that they assume consumers are well informed and capable - that is clearly not the case in a large proportion of cases.
The ill-informed and incapable can go and swing as far as I'm concerned.There are plenty of victims of companies behaving poorly, an example is the ash cloud thing which was featured on Watchdog and has been running for month. Do tell why these companies cannot follow a rule 101 piece ofleiglsation in the airline industry?
Anyway, the closedown of Consumer DIRECT and some parts of the OFT was confirmed today. Main thing I have found so far is people moaning that the CAB is already struggling to cope with all demand it currently has so there is a question mark over how much extra resourcing they will get.
Doesnt look like the changover will happen ti early next year though
Incidentally I have noticed a load of consumer issues popping up on PH recently!
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