Am I being mugged? Extra charges from the builder
Discussion
I am pretty sure I know the answer already but I am interested in opinions.
We have had an extension built over the garage, the room is 5m x 5m as part of the building work the garage underneath was rewired the room above was wired and newly built enclosed stair case was wired.
The builder quoted for the electrics within his initial quote, he estimated the price for all the electrical work as £1200.
As the build progressed we decided to up the spec and agreed with the builder to buy some of the fixtures, namely all the lights, and to pay the costs above the £1200 he quoted as he was sub contracting the work to a local firm. This was done verbally and everybody was happy.
The build is now complete (bare a few minor things) and as part of the final bill the builder has advised the electricians have put in a bill to him for £3200, so the builder is asking for his £1200 and the extra £2000. Bare in mind we have already paid £900 for all the lights. This brings the total bill to £4100.
The builder has provided an itemised bill form the electrician for all the parts they have supplied and then a bill for labour
The bill says they have used 650m cable and they have charged us for 96 hours labour which is 12 full days work. Other than the amount cable I don't have an issue with the parts part of the bill but I'd like to know peoples thoughts on the labour.
Over the rooms we have;
28 x sockets
30 x LED down lights
1 x dangling light in the loft
1 x smoke alarm
1 x heat alarm
switches for the lights in each room.
they supplied a new consumer unit which is in the garage (so no long runs for the cables)
The work was completed by them over two separate visits to the house first fix and final fix so they was no deal in labour hours due to access or routing cables.
If there is a resident sparky who could given an idea of realistic amount of labour involved that would be good but all comments are welcome.
We have had an extension built over the garage, the room is 5m x 5m as part of the building work the garage underneath was rewired the room above was wired and newly built enclosed stair case was wired.
The builder quoted for the electrics within his initial quote, he estimated the price for all the electrical work as £1200.
As the build progressed we decided to up the spec and agreed with the builder to buy some of the fixtures, namely all the lights, and to pay the costs above the £1200 he quoted as he was sub contracting the work to a local firm. This was done verbally and everybody was happy.
The build is now complete (bare a few minor things) and as part of the final bill the builder has advised the electricians have put in a bill to him for £3200, so the builder is asking for his £1200 and the extra £2000. Bare in mind we have already paid £900 for all the lights. This brings the total bill to £4100.
The builder has provided an itemised bill form the electrician for all the parts they have supplied and then a bill for labour
The bill says they have used 650m cable and they have charged us for 96 hours labour which is 12 full days work. Other than the amount cable I don't have an issue with the parts part of the bill but I'd like to know peoples thoughts on the labour.
Over the rooms we have;
28 x sockets
30 x LED down lights
1 x dangling light in the loft
1 x smoke alarm
1 x heat alarm
switches for the lights in each room.
they supplied a new consumer unit which is in the garage (so no long runs for the cables)
The work was completed by them over two separate visits to the house first fix and final fix so they was no deal in labour hours due to access or routing cables.
If there is a resident sparky who could given an idea of realistic amount of labour involved that would be good but all comments are welcome.
Thanks for the replies, just to be clear
The existing double garage is 5m x 5m
The room built on top is 5m x 5m
The loft surprise, surprise is also 5m x 5m
the 30 lights are all individual spot LEDs 12 in the garage ceiling, 12 in the games room ceiling and 6 up the new staircase. There is also a single light that dangles in the loft
The consumer unit wasn't changed they put a smaller unit next to the original one in the garage and ran all the new wiring to that.
The sockets are excessive but they are for specific purpose (NOT growing dope) so half the garage can be used as a studio, and the ones in the extension are for the cinema and gaming stuff.
the cable amount is not a typo they have billed us for 650m of cable, some of it is different ratings so I am assuming its just been put on as a full roll of each.
It's a tough spot to be in as the builder has been excellent, he's a local guy and has been going 30+ years, he obviously uses the local electrical firm who we have used before a few years ago for another job.
The existing double garage is 5m x 5m
The room built on top is 5m x 5m
The loft surprise, surprise is also 5m x 5m
the 30 lights are all individual spot LEDs 12 in the garage ceiling, 12 in the games room ceiling and 6 up the new staircase. There is also a single light that dangles in the loft
The consumer unit wasn't changed they put a smaller unit next to the original one in the garage and ran all the new wiring to that.
The sockets are excessive but they are for specific purpose (NOT growing dope) so half the garage can be used as a studio, and the ones in the extension are for the cinema and gaming stuff.
the cable amount is not a typo they have billed us for 650m of cable, some of it is different ratings so I am assuming its just been put on as a full roll of each.
It's a tough spot to be in as the builder has been excellent, he's a local guy and has been going 30+ years, he obviously uses the local electrical firm who we have used before a few years ago for another job.
shtu said:
If you don't have it already, ask for a breakdown as it's more than expected.
Looking at it though, it's really to the scale of a full house wiring job and then some - the building isn't big on plan, but it's 3 storeys with an awful lot of sockets, switches, etc. A typical "house rewire kit" would have 10 sockets and 8 pendants in it. (plus the other bits, obv.)
Say, £50 a light\socket\switch\detector to install and test, you've got 61 lights\sockets\detectors, plus say, 10 switches to control the lights.
That's £3550 already, without thinking too much about the Consumer unit install, labour to run the cable, etc.
Even if you said 30 minutes to install and test each second fix item, that's almost 36 hours there alone. (think about the setup of ceiling lights, and the moving about from place to place to do each one - it's not a 5 min job)
If you had a couple of sparks onsite, there's 6 eight hour days of labour stated.
It's a lot more than you discussed, I don't think it's totally ridiculous, though they may be laying it on a little as you didn't agree the prices upfront.
All points taken on board.Looking at it though, it's really to the scale of a full house wiring job and then some - the building isn't big on plan, but it's 3 storeys with an awful lot of sockets, switches, etc. A typical "house rewire kit" would have 10 sockets and 8 pendants in it. (plus the other bits, obv.)
Say, £50 a light\socket\switch\detector to install and test, you've got 61 lights\sockets\detectors, plus say, 10 switches to control the lights.
That's £3550 already, without thinking too much about the Consumer unit install, labour to run the cable, etc.
Even if you said 30 minutes to install and test each second fix item, that's almost 36 hours there alone. (think about the setup of ceiling lights, and the moving about from place to place to do each one - it's not a 5 min job)
If you had a couple of sparks onsite, there's 6 eight hour days of labour stated.
It's a lot more than you discussed, I don't think it's totally ridiculous, though they may be laying it on a little as you didn't agree the prices upfront.
I have a breakdown of each individual part they have supplied and then a bill for 96 hours labour
The only point I'm not happy with on the parts bill is the 650m of cable they are charging me for, everything else is fine.
There are only 4 light switches one in the garage one the games room and two on the stairs (top and bottom).
how relevant is the comparison to a full house rewire? Given the fact that all the first fix was done when it was a shell so no access problems and the spot lights are not much over a meter apart?
Mousem40 said:
I agree with Shtu, his calculations are correct. Each 'point' is around £50 (it's always priced that way £ per point, I've never been charged by the hour)
The amount of cable seems ok. 200m of T&E 1.5, 200m of 2.5, 100m BT, 100m coax, some 3 core, That's >600 already, Then add materials on top.
The cable I am being charged for is;The amount of cable seems ok. 200m of T&E 1.5, 200m of 2.5, 100m BT, 100m coax, some 3 core, That's >600 already, Then add materials on top.
200m x 2.5mm twin and earth cable
250m x 1.5mm twin and earth cable
100m x 1.0 3core and earth cable
100m x 6.0 twin and earth
Some interesting replies to answer a few points;
The cable I am being charged for is;
200m x 2.5mm twin and earth cable £79.35
250m x 1.5mm twin and earth cable £138.00
100m x 1.0 3core and earth cable £30.93
100m x 6.0 twin and earth £132.25
These have VAT added to them so it's a sizable chunk of the parts bill.
None of the electrical work was retrofit as in no going back and redoing stuff, we changed 'spec' before any electrical work started
I advised you guys wrong it wasn't 28 sockets it's 22 (who knows where I got 28 from)
so the break down of work is
Stairs
6 x spots LED lights
1 x smoke alarm
1 x heat alarm
2 switches
Loft
1 x hanger pendant light
1 x switch
1 x socket
Room above garage 5m x 5m
12 x spot LED lights
11 x sockets
1 x light switch
1 x switch that turns the plug off behind the TV
Garage
12 x spot LED lights
10 x sockets
1 x outside PIR light
1 x switch (its a double at the door that turns the lights on and the PIR light off)
1 x Consumer Unit (£65 + VAT)
So that's 61 individual items they have fitted
at 96 man hours that is just over 90 minutes and item over first and second fix
at 650m of cable it's an average of 10,6m of cable per item, now I know it's not as simple as this but nothing fitted is 10m away from the consumer unit allowing for the cable to be fitted trough the walls
The consumer unit is mounted literally touching the other original, its mounted on the other side of the wall to the electricity metre.
The consumer unit has 6 labelled circuits;
Stair lights
games room lights
garage lights
garage sockets
sockets ring 1
sockets ring 2
Total parts bill
£808.55 + VAT
Labour Electrician £1430 + VAT
Labour Electricians Mate £372 + VAT
Total bill £2.610.55
VAT £522.11
Total £3132.66
+ We have paid £900 for the 30 spot lights
Opinions still welcome, the plan is to e-mail the builder, some of our communication has been by e-mail so it won't be odd him getting and e-mail from us, saying we are a little concerned about the bill and think they may have over estimated a few things and ask him to go back and revise it with them and see what response we get.
The cable I am being charged for is;
200m x 2.5mm twin and earth cable £79.35
250m x 1.5mm twin and earth cable £138.00
100m x 1.0 3core and earth cable £30.93
100m x 6.0 twin and earth £132.25
These have VAT added to them so it's a sizable chunk of the parts bill.
None of the electrical work was retrofit as in no going back and redoing stuff, we changed 'spec' before any electrical work started
I advised you guys wrong it wasn't 28 sockets it's 22 (who knows where I got 28 from)
so the break down of work is
Stairs
6 x spots LED lights
1 x smoke alarm
1 x heat alarm
2 switches
Loft
1 x hanger pendant light
1 x switch
1 x socket
Room above garage 5m x 5m
12 x spot LED lights
11 x sockets
1 x light switch
1 x switch that turns the plug off behind the TV
Garage
12 x spot LED lights
10 x sockets
1 x outside PIR light
1 x switch (its a double at the door that turns the lights on and the PIR light off)
1 x Consumer Unit (£65 + VAT)
So that's 61 individual items they have fitted
at 96 man hours that is just over 90 minutes and item over first and second fix
at 650m of cable it's an average of 10,6m of cable per item, now I know it's not as simple as this but nothing fitted is 10m away from the consumer unit allowing for the cable to be fitted trough the walls
The consumer unit is mounted literally touching the other original, its mounted on the other side of the wall to the electricity metre.
The consumer unit has 6 labelled circuits;
Stair lights
games room lights
garage lights
garage sockets
sockets ring 1
sockets ring 2
Total parts bill
£808.55 + VAT
Labour Electrician £1430 + VAT
Labour Electricians Mate £372 + VAT
Total bill £2.610.55
VAT £522.11
Total £3132.66
+ We have paid £900 for the 30 spot lights
Opinions still welcome, the plan is to e-mail the builder, some of our communication has been by e-mail so it won't be odd him getting and e-mail from us, saying we are a little concerned about the bill and think they may have over estimated a few things and ask him to go back and revise it with them and see what response we get.
Mousem40 said:
Your bill includes the cables?
I'm now of the opinion that your total bill is cheap.
In London sparkies charge say £30-70 a point (a point being any socket/light switch etc) - no materials. Forget hours worked for the moment (£ per point ultimately converts into hours of work they assume needs to be done, it's all relative and I'm giving you other relative quotes based on number of points which is the norm). £50 being the average retail price (plus VAT/Tax)
Taking out the materials element of your job, means you're paying £35 a point all in!
That is a really decent price and I bet you'll have some useless (to you) half used reels of 3-core lying around too.
Stop running around the house with a tape measure working it all out, you haven't been ripped off on the labour element. He may have over ordered slightly on the cables so ask for £50-100 off but I can't see how you can know either way.
So just so I am clear, Mr Smith wants his formerly unlit garage bathed in light.I'm now of the opinion that your total bill is cheap.
In London sparkies charge say £30-70 a point (a point being any socket/light switch etc) - no materials. Forget hours worked for the moment (£ per point ultimately converts into hours of work they assume needs to be done, it's all relative and I'm giving you other relative quotes based on number of points which is the norm). £50 being the average retail price (plus VAT/Tax)
Taking out the materials element of your job, means you're paying £35 a point all in!
That is a really decent price and I bet you'll have some useless (to you) half used reels of 3-core lying around too.
Stop running around the house with a tape measure working it all out, you haven't been ripped off on the labour element. He may have over ordered slightly on the cables so ask for £50-100 off but I can't see how you can know either way.
Edited by Mousem40 on Thursday 27th August 23:36
Edited by Mousem40 on Thursday 27th August 23:40
If he goes for a giant disco ball in the middle he pays for;
Consumer unit £60 + install £50
Disco ball £50 + install £50
Switch £10 + install £50
30m of wire £30
So total £300 + VAT
however if he wants 12 spotlights;
Consumer unit £60 + install £50
Spot lights x 12 £360 + install x12 £600
Switch £10 + install £50
140m of wire £140
Total £1270 + VAT?
- *Update***
I sent the builder a nice e-mail expressing my concern at the high amount of the bill and said I thought I had spotted a few things that didn't seem right and said I would have expected him to have vetted the bill before passing it on.
All the builder did was forward the e-mail on directly to the electrician and then forward his reply directly back to me. I am disappointed as it feels like he is trying to distance himself from the issue.
The response from the electrician is in my opinion unprofessional, they have acknowledged that the 6mm cable was added to the invoice in error and was not something that was used on the job and also removed 2 x smoke detectors that were added to the bill again in error.
There was no apology for the 'mistake' on the bill just a reduction in the amount and no acknowledgement on any of the other queries just a statement about the bill being fair. Then some waffle about them having to stop all their work to come and do this as we put pressure on them (first we knew they were coming was when the builder said the electricians will be here on x day they arrived on worked and left). Then some other waffle about the amount of lights being excessive. Of course we were led by the them on the amount needed in the room.
So we have a £200 reduction in the bill
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