My fence vs neighbour's hedge
Discussion
I'm hoping someone can offer some advice before I go any further! To set the scene I live in a large country house that has been divided into three, my slice is the middle portion. To the right I have lovely neighbours in their late thirties, to the left I have awful elderly busy body neighbours who we no longer speak to (the feelings are mutual). We moved in 18 months ago, the busy bodies have lived their for about 40 years. I could write for ages about them but I'll stick to the fence saga...
We own the aging wooden fence which splits our rear garden boundaries. The fence is still up but is in desperate need of replacement, due to the busy bodies refusing to maintain the hedge which is pushing and bowing the fence. When I was able to talk to them, I asked them to trim the hedge back against our fence/boundary in readiness for brand new posts and panels. Their reply was "the boundary is wrong so we don't need to trim the hedge, you need to move your fence half a foot onto your side". Their garden is roughly an acre, ours is about 25ft wide by 40ft long since we are the middle slice.
We aren't prepared to lose any of our garden width and I know I should be OK due to the 12 year adverse possession rule, the fence (and therefore boundary) has stood for far longer than 12 years and can be verified as the previous owner of our property actually lives in the right side of the house! Our house was built in the 1840s and was divided into three in the early 1900s, the deeds are ambigious and there are no defining measurements. It's my understanding that a long standing fence such as ours dictates the boundary.
Their hedge has significantly damaged and bowed the current standing fence. Any fence replacement is now going to be contrived due to their refusal to maintain the hedge and the fact we are not on speaking terms. I actually think they are deliberately pushing the fence over as they've had the hedge trimmed recently, though obviously not on the boundary side!
I'm wondering if it's possible to force them to cut their hedge back somehow, especially since the current fence's decline has been accelerated by said hedge. Any advice is welcome!
Here's a picture for reference, you can barely see the fence thanks to the hedge! It's also difficult to make out how bowed the fence now is, but it's very bad. Our scrappy garden is to the right...
We own the aging wooden fence which splits our rear garden boundaries. The fence is still up but is in desperate need of replacement, due to the busy bodies refusing to maintain the hedge which is pushing and bowing the fence. When I was able to talk to them, I asked them to trim the hedge back against our fence/boundary in readiness for brand new posts and panels. Their reply was "the boundary is wrong so we don't need to trim the hedge, you need to move your fence half a foot onto your side". Their garden is roughly an acre, ours is about 25ft wide by 40ft long since we are the middle slice.
We aren't prepared to lose any of our garden width and I know I should be OK due to the 12 year adverse possession rule, the fence (and therefore boundary) has stood for far longer than 12 years and can be verified as the previous owner of our property actually lives in the right side of the house! Our house was built in the 1840s and was divided into three in the early 1900s, the deeds are ambigious and there are no defining measurements. It's my understanding that a long standing fence such as ours dictates the boundary.
Their hedge has significantly damaged and bowed the current standing fence. Any fence replacement is now going to be contrived due to their refusal to maintain the hedge and the fact we are not on speaking terms. I actually think they are deliberately pushing the fence over as they've had the hedge trimmed recently, though obviously not on the boundary side!
I'm wondering if it's possible to force them to cut their hedge back somehow, especially since the current fence's decline has been accelerated by said hedge. Any advice is welcome!
Here's a picture for reference, you can barely see the fence thanks to the hedge! It's also difficult to make out how bowed the fence now is, but it's very bad. Our scrappy garden is to the right...
Thanks all for the advice, I didn't really know where to start so it all helps 
.
They have an aggressive/unsocialised great dane which they cannot control (and never EVER walk...) who has tried to break through the fence several times now to get through to my dogs. Doubling up the fence really isn't a bad idea.
desolate said:
Firstly the adverse possession system changed a few years ago so it's now a lot more difficult to claim.
Secondly you can clip the hedge so it doesn't overhang your boundary without their permission.
And Finally life really is too short to get involved in this as it has the makings of something we will read in the Daily Mail in 10 years time. Boundary disputes really are a nightmare and nobody wins.
If it were me I would build a new strong fence inside your boundary leaving current fencing in place. As this is yours and inside your land they can't touch it.
Take photographs and write to the neighbours saying that you haven't moved the boundary and that the current boundary line remains.
Ignore neighbours until the move or die.
I know I brought it up but I don't actually think adverse possession applies here, the deeds are as such there is very little to go off and as far as I can see the fence is OK where it is now. However I really like the idea of just erecting another strong fence against the current one, this solves most of the issues and sticks two fingers up at them for little loss. I'd make it so they were unable to remove the old fence too Secondly you can clip the hedge so it doesn't overhang your boundary without their permission.
And Finally life really is too short to get involved in this as it has the makings of something we will read in the Daily Mail in 10 years time. Boundary disputes really are a nightmare and nobody wins.
If it were me I would build a new strong fence inside your boundary leaving current fencing in place. As this is yours and inside your land they can't touch it.
Take photographs and write to the neighbours saying that you haven't moved the boundary and that the current boundary line remains.
Ignore neighbours until the move or die.
.They have an aggressive/unsocialised great dane which they cannot control (and never EVER walk...) who has tried to break through the fence several times now to get through to my dogs. Doubling up the fence really isn't a bad idea.
We neatly laid turf last spring/summer only to see moles rip the lot. Meaning we need to start again! This was when we laid it last year.
Spare tyre said:
As others have said don't get into further grief
I think the suggestion of leaving the existing fence there and putting up a beefier one is the best. You might loose a little bit of land but it's worth it
I know it's not fair, but people are nobs and you won't win
I'd film it / lots of pics
Does the fence join to the house?
If so I'd make a permanent mark where it does
I'm definitely leaning to doing just that, I might loose a bit of land, but they certainly won't win. Yes the fence does join to the house and making a mark is a great suggestion.I think the suggestion of leaving the existing fence there and putting up a beefier one is the best. You might loose a little bit of land but it's worth it
I know it's not fair, but people are nobs and you won't win
I'd film it / lots of pics
Does the fence join to the house?
If so I'd make a permanent mark where it does
OP back from the dead with an update! Since summer is around the corner we are looking to re-sort out our mess of a garden. The previous suggestions are all really helpful so I appreciate the input
I've been busy with work and life that the fence is still in limbo. It's currently on it's last legs and I will have to do something pretty soon. As tempting as it is to simply erect a nice fence inside the current one I think it would cause an issue when we came to sell the property and the old one will push onto it with the neighbour's further hedge growth. As difficult as it will be, I suspect we will have to take down the current fence and replace it from scratch.
Today is an example of why this is going to be so difficult to contend with. One of the previous posters sarcastically mentioned about the ivy ruining the fence rather than the neighbour's actual hedge, I saw to it this morning.
Pre-Op
Post-Op
Most of the ivy is coming over the fence from their side, though there is roots on ourside too. Their "hedges" are also well over the boundary of the fence. Today I had the audacity of removing (most of) the ivy and trimming their hedge back as it passed over the top of the fence. I knew I wasn't going to get through it without some sort of aggro. The first thing I knew was they let their Great Dane loose which proceeded to batter the fence (see "reinforcements" behind the chair), then the crazy came out of the house and proceeded to go bat s
t mental at me.
I explained that I was simply removing the ivy from my property and trimming their hedge that came over my boundary, due to her reckoning the fence is in the wrong place I know owe damages to her for trimming the hedge... Even if the fence is in the wrong position, I'm well within my right to remove their hedge/ivy from my property, the fence. She proceeded to list the rest of my apparent crimes shouting over the fence and my partner informs me she can hear them debating/writing an angry letter to us as I type this She states that removing the ivy will cause the fence to collapse, though she is desperate for us to replace it at the same time 
We also got personal abuse about stuff completely immaterial to our properties. I managed to keep calm and told her we were carrying on regardless.
She is also very upset that she cannot allow her Great Dane to roam their garden today as it simply will not stop aggressively barking at us whilst we work on the garden and fence, during which we have to keep our dogs inside due to the risk. I do believe that if the Great Dane got through it will do serious harm to our dogs and possibly us too. As such I will be reinforcing the fence with chain link and metal stakes until I can work out what to do with the actual fence. She cannot control this dog, it is never walked due to her not being able to control it. In fact in nearly two years of living here I have never seen it off their property. When it actually comes to removing the rotten fence there will be a risk with this dog loose.
Since my last post I've gone through our house paperwork and any title information I can lay my hands on. The title plan from the land registry simply has two parallel lines marking the garden border. I've measured the widths of the garden, at the front of the garden nearest the house the fence to the brick wall is 23ft, near the shed at the back it's 26ft. So technically there is a 3ft difference compared to the "parallel" lines of the title plan. This is also assuming the brick wall is totally reliable and straight border reference.
Digging through the mountain of paperwork there is a photocopied surveyors (not land registry I believe) plan dating from 1947, being so old and badly scanned the measurements of the garden width are hard to distinguish but it simply has one measurement of garden width which I believe to state 24ft. At the front of the garden this is impossible to be accurate as between the brick wall and the edge of the house by the fence it can only be a maximum of 23ft, there's no debating 23ft. So I don't think the 1947 survey can be totally relied on. That said at this point, I'm tempted to just to stick the fence at 24ft at the rear of the garden and lose the 2ft we currently have. I'm planning to build decking at the rear of the garden and build a bespoke shed, so I don't want to be forced to move the boundary at a later date through legal matters.
Does anyone know if they can force the fence to be moved even though we bought the house with no boundary disputes or the issue being raised at the time.
When we bought the house there was no boundary disputes declared and we were also told of NO neighbour disputes either, though I know for a fact there was police attending for neighbour disputes between the ex tenants and my awful neighbours. Though as we bought the house from the LAND LORD, I'm not sure the non disclosure of neighbour disputes count as it was between the tenants. We are tempted to pursue this with the estate agents we bought the house with as we simply would not have bought the property with full disclosure. Since buying the property there was an incidence in which I called the police to report an harrassment incident about her, since this will have to be fully disclosed when we come to sell the property I don't know what affect on value this will have.
I will be calling a boundary surveyor next week, thinking of talking to citizens advice and thinking of raise a complaint with the estate agent.
Fun and games eh
UPDATE: Since writing this my partner has overheard them actually talking about falsifying claims against over many matters and that the fence has actually been in place for 25 years...
I've been busy with work and life that the fence is still in limbo. It's currently on it's last legs and I will have to do something pretty soon. As tempting as it is to simply erect a nice fence inside the current one I think it would cause an issue when we came to sell the property and the old one will push onto it with the neighbour's further hedge growth. As difficult as it will be, I suspect we will have to take down the current fence and replace it from scratch.
Today is an example of why this is going to be so difficult to contend with. One of the previous posters sarcastically mentioned about the ivy ruining the fence rather than the neighbour's actual hedge, I saw to it this morning.
Pre-Op
Post-Op
Most of the ivy is coming over the fence from their side, though there is roots on ourside too. Their "hedges" are also well over the boundary of the fence. Today I had the audacity of removing (most of) the ivy and trimming their hedge back as it passed over the top of the fence. I knew I wasn't going to get through it without some sort of aggro. The first thing I knew was they let their Great Dane loose which proceeded to batter the fence (see "reinforcements" behind the chair), then the crazy came out of the house and proceeded to go bat s
t mental at me. I explained that I was simply removing the ivy from my property and trimming their hedge that came over my boundary, due to her reckoning the fence is in the wrong place I know owe damages to her for trimming the hedge... Even if the fence is in the wrong position, I'm well within my right to remove their hedge/ivy from my property, the fence. She proceeded to list the rest of my apparent crimes shouting over the fence and my partner informs me she can hear them debating/writing an angry letter to us as I type this
She states that removing the ivy will cause the fence to collapse, though she is desperate for us to replace it at the same time We also got personal abuse about stuff completely immaterial to our properties. I managed to keep calm and told her we were carrying on regardless.She is also very upset that she cannot allow her Great Dane to roam their garden today as it simply will not stop aggressively barking at us whilst we work on the garden and fence, during which we have to keep our dogs inside due to the risk. I do believe that if the Great Dane got through it will do serious harm to our dogs and possibly us too. As such I will be reinforcing the fence with chain link and metal stakes until I can work out what to do with the actual fence. She cannot control this dog, it is never walked due to her not being able to control it. In fact in nearly two years of living here I have never seen it off their property. When it actually comes to removing the rotten fence there will be a risk with this dog loose.
Since my last post I've gone through our house paperwork and any title information I can lay my hands on. The title plan from the land registry simply has two parallel lines marking the garden border. I've measured the widths of the garden, at the front of the garden nearest the house the fence to the brick wall is 23ft, near the shed at the back it's 26ft. So technically there is a 3ft difference compared to the "parallel" lines of the title plan. This is also assuming the brick wall is totally reliable and straight border reference.
Digging through the mountain of paperwork there is a photocopied surveyors (not land registry I believe) plan dating from 1947, being so old and badly scanned the measurements of the garden width are hard to distinguish but it simply has one measurement of garden width which I believe to state 24ft. At the front of the garden this is impossible to be accurate as between the brick wall and the edge of the house by the fence it can only be a maximum of 23ft, there's no debating 23ft. So I don't think the 1947 survey can be totally relied on. That said at this point, I'm tempted to just to stick the fence at 24ft at the rear of the garden and lose the 2ft we currently have. I'm planning to build decking at the rear of the garden and build a bespoke shed, so I don't want to be forced to move the boundary at a later date through legal matters.
Does anyone know if they can force the fence to be moved even though we bought the house with no boundary disputes or the issue being raised at the time.
When we bought the house there was no boundary disputes declared and we were also told of NO neighbour disputes either, though I know for a fact there was police attending for neighbour disputes between the ex tenants and my awful neighbours. Though as we bought the house from the LAND LORD, I'm not sure the non disclosure of neighbour disputes count as it was between the tenants. We are tempted to pursue this with the estate agents we bought the house with as we simply would not have bought the property with full disclosure. Since buying the property there was an incidence in which I called the police to report an harrassment incident about her, since this will have to be fully disclosed when we come to sell the property I don't know what affect on value this will have.
I will be calling a boundary surveyor next week, thinking of talking to citizens advice and thinking of raise a complaint with the estate agent.
Fun and games eh
UPDATE: Since writing this my partner has overheard them actually talking about falsifying claims against over many matters and that the fence has actually been in place for 25 years...
Brick wall:
I'd agree if we were staying forever, we're not. Also I'd have to be even more certain where the boundary is set, I'm not.
Fence / Boundary:
My current belief is that as the fence has stood in it's current position for possibly up to 25 years, I'm within my right to replace it exactly where it currently stands since it's stood for over 12 years. If I do this, I want to make sure that the st neighbours cannot dispute this or try to drag this through the courts.
I've lived in the property since September 2014, the fence is obviously ancient though I have no proof of the age. One of the neighbours on the brick wall/right hand side used to live in my middle property and can confirm the fence was in place when he originally bought our property back in 2002. I'm seeing these neighbours tonight to talk about proving the fence boundary and whether they have any photographical evidence. I'm also hoping to glean information about disputes we were not made aware of when buying the property.
Great Dane/RSPCA:
This thought has crossed my mind but I'm not keen to pursue this for a few reasons. One being I'm not a fan of theirs as an organisation, the other being I believe they have already reported us to the RSPCA about our own dogs We have a black lab and a pug, both are fully socialised and well behaved, and get multiple daily walks off lead, the total opposite to how the Great Dane is and how it is treated.
My OH works part time but there are times they are left on their own during working hours. Even when we were on speaking terms the st neighbour told us how the Pug squealed it's head off all day and that the lab barked constantly. Our other adjoined neighbours (as we're in the middle) also say there is NO issues with our dogs during the day since they work at home. I bought an indoor wifi IP camera and listened in on my phone whilst at work and didn't hear a peep, after a month or two I gave up, they just chill on the sofa all day! The camera is still live though.
There is an issue that my lab and their Great Dane will bark at each other either side of the fence. I have asked them multiple times if the dogs can meet and get used to each other - they have refused. They are both as bad as each other in the barking, but the latest accusation from their side is our lab is the dangerous dog and they cannot have people round or their grandchild in the back garden. This is frankly ludicrous and nothing other than blatant lies, but I believe to aggravate us further they have reported the black lab to the RSPCA, this is one of the things my OH overheard the other day.
My dogs are not without fault, barely any are, but my account above is wholly accurate. Any suggestion my lab is dangerous is laughable and can be backed up from a few professional sources. This is just a blood boiling piss take. I'm not concerned as if the RSPCA turned up I'd simply deny them access to my property, I've heard too many scare stories based on hear-say like my neighbours to take the risk of letting them onto my property.
All I want to do is to replace the fence without causing a legal dispute on the correct boundary. I haven't seen or anything concrete to know I can do this at the current fence placement. This is why I'm struggling and considering asking professional help.
Thanks all for the feedback, it really is appreciated
I'd agree if we were staying forever, we're not. Also I'd have to be even more certain where the boundary is set, I'm not.
Fence / Boundary:
My current belief is that as the fence has stood in it's current position for possibly up to 25 years, I'm within my right to replace it exactly where it currently stands since it's stood for over 12 years. If I do this, I want to make sure that the s
t neighbours cannot dispute this or try to drag this through the courts. I've lived in the property since September 2014, the fence is obviously ancient though I have no proof of the age. One of the neighbours on the brick wall/right hand side used to live in my middle property and can confirm the fence was in place when he originally bought our property back in 2002. I'm seeing these neighbours tonight to talk about proving the fence boundary and whether they have any photographical evidence. I'm also hoping to glean information about disputes we were not made aware of when buying the property.
Great Dane/RSPCA:
This thought has crossed my mind but I'm not keen to pursue this for a few reasons. One being I'm not a fan of theirs as an organisation, the other being I believe they have already reported us to the RSPCA about our own dogs
We have a black lab and a pug, both are fully socialised and well behaved, and get multiple daily walks off lead, the total opposite to how the Great Dane is and how it is treated.My OH works part time but there are times they are left on their own during working hours. Even when we were on speaking terms the s
t neighbour told us how the Pug squealed it's head off all day and that the lab barked constantly. Our other adjoined neighbours (as we're in the middle) also say there is NO issues with our dogs during the day since they work at home. I bought an indoor wifi IP camera and listened in on my phone whilst at work and didn't hear a peep, after a month or two I gave up, they just chill on the sofa all day! The camera is still live though.There is an issue that my lab and their Great Dane will bark at each other either side of the fence. I have asked them multiple times if the dogs can meet and get used to each other - they have refused. They are both as bad as each other in the barking, but the latest accusation from their side is our lab is the dangerous dog and they cannot have people round or their grandchild in the back garden. This is frankly ludicrous and nothing other than blatant lies, but I believe to aggravate us further they have reported the black lab to the RSPCA, this is one of the things my OH overheard the other day.
My dogs are not without fault, barely any are, but my account above is wholly accurate. Any suggestion my lab is dangerous is laughable and can be backed up from a few professional sources. This is just a blood boiling piss take. I'm not concerned as if the RSPCA turned up I'd simply deny them access to my property, I've heard too many scare stories based on hear-say like my neighbours to take the risk of letting them onto my property.
Mr GrimNasty said:
Dear God OP, you sound like a right..........
Boundary surveyors, and finding simply replacing a fence such hard work?
You are about to be the architect of your own misfortune, be warned.
No property plan will define boundaries to the level of accuracy you seem to want.
You have bought a property with a clearly established boundary and that is what you've got.
The road to ruin awaits........
Thanks Pal. I'm literally clueless about the boundary/fence situation and no matter how much I research online I'm still no clearer as what to do with the boundary, why do you think I posted this on PH in the first place... To be clear, I'm happy with the boundary, I know the title plans cannot be relied on for accuracy.Boundary surveyors, and finding simply replacing a fence such hard work?
You are about to be the architect of your own misfortune, be warned.
No property plan will define boundaries to the level of accuracy you seem to want.
You have bought a property with a clearly established boundary and that is what you've got.
The road to ruin awaits........
All I want to do is to replace the fence without causing a legal dispute on the correct boundary. I haven't seen or anything concrete to know I can do this at the current fence placement. This is why I'm struggling and considering asking professional help.
TheLordJohn said:
Honestly, if you can afford to, just move somewhere with more land and so away from neighbours.
I had 12 months of living next to an absolute of a human being (husband works away for 3 months at a time, alcoholic, lived in the village all her life so it was hers, nosey etc) and I swear to God if we were in Texas she'd have been shot dead before now.
Our next house we buy will have at least 3 acres.
That's now the plan. We've had enough of being spied on, abused, harrassed and wondering what's coming next. They're moving onto making up allegations and they have all the time in the world to push their agenda and fight us. We're going to be doing the bare minimum to the property and aiming to put it on the market within two months. Due to our obvious neighbour problems I'm sure we're going to take a loss, which is why I'm doubly keen to pursue any non-disclosed disputes prior to us moving in.I had 12 months of living next to an absolute
of a human being (husband works away for 3 months at a time, alcoholic, lived in the village all her life so it was hers, nosey etc) and I swear to God if we were in Texas she'd have been shot dead before now. Our next house we buy will have at least 3 acres.
Thanks all for the feedback, it really is appreciated
Richie Slow said:
I suggest that in some situations, where there are unpleasant and obnoxious people who try to bully others, a firm line needs to be taken and a steely resolve needs to be shown. You might only need to do it once, when they realise you mean business they might give up trying to push you around. You've tried to be reasonable and it didn't work, now man-up and sort the fence out whether they like it or not.
Although this thread suggests a lot of pussy footing on my behalf, I'd like to think I'm normally someone who gets things done! The reason I'm being so cautious is I don't want anymore value eroded from my home when it comes to sell. If I whack a fence up as is and then get dragged into a legal battle this would be very bad.I tried to make use of the free 30 minutes RIC boundary advice phone call this lunchtime but was unable to get through.
. Next weekend should see some progress!OP UPDATE
After the ivy incident and the fact we would have to interact with them in getting the fence done, we decided to go ahead as one of the first posters suggested and we've put a new fence inside the old one. Now their dispute will be much harder as the original fence is intact, their hedge is intact etc, so they have very little claim. We upgraded to concrete posts and gravel boards to minimise any pushing from the old fence, but there is a fair gap in places ("no mans land"!) and we've reinforced where the old fence was weak and bowed.
We started early Saturday and they rushed out stating "they were going legal", I basically said they have no claim. They then realised that I'm actually planning to keep the old knackered fence there for eternity! I only spoke to the husband which to his credit was actually quite polite, the old witch did hang out the window hollering abuse though... They themselves admitted the original fence had been there 20 years.
So we've lost a bit of land but it's actually made the garden visually a lot larger, and far far neater. Now that's out of the way we are raring to crack on and make it awesome! We await their legal team!
After the ivy incident and the fact we would have to interact with them in getting the fence done, we decided to go ahead as one of the first posters suggested and we've put a new fence inside the old one. Now their dispute will be much harder as the original fence is intact, their hedge is intact etc, so they have very little claim. We upgraded to concrete posts and gravel boards to minimise any pushing from the old fence, but there is a fair gap in places ("no mans land"!) and we've reinforced where the old fence was weak and bowed.
We started early Saturday and they rushed out stating "they were going legal", I basically said they have no claim. They then realised that I'm actually planning to keep the old knackered fence there for eternity! I only spoke to the husband which to his credit was actually quite polite, the old witch did hang out the window hollering abuse though... They themselves admitted the original fence had been there 20 years.
So we've lost a bit of land but it's actually made the garden visually a lot larger, and far far neater. Now that's out of the way we are raring to crack on and make it awesome! We await their legal team!
Edited by rob0r on Sunday 15th May 20:53
I'll put up a proper reply later and post some pictures up. All good so far, no court date! I will 100% be maintaining the original boundary and is one reason I have installed CCTV trained on the fences... If they do remove the original fence then I'll do whatever I can to replace it at their cost, pursuing criminal damage etc. So far it's all quiet, I think they like ourselves are actually pleased to have a secure boundary.
Getting the fence sorted and the boundary secure has sort of unlocked the garden for us. Last year we really had to take care and couldn't relax incase the dogs managed to get though, so now it's really nice. The extra height of the new fence is also a proper bonus. I'm currently gutting the garden and it's nearly all cleared. It's getting totally rotovated, levelled, patio'd, pathed and hopefully a new shed
Getting the fence sorted and the boundary secure has sort of unlocked the garden for us. Last year we really had to take care and couldn't relax incase the dogs managed to get though, so now it's really nice. The extra height of the new fence is also a proper bonus. I'm currently gutting the garden and it's nearly all cleared. It's getting totally rotovated, levelled, patio'd, pathed and hopefully a new shed
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