New Build Advice - Which green technology works ?
Discussion
Bought a house 18 months ago which we had every intention of renovating but it is now looking like we're going to build a new house on the plot...I'd like that house to be as efficient as possible to run. Certainly willing to invest capital now in return for cheaper running costs in the future.
We're very early in the process...design isn't anywhere near finalised and we're about to go through what will likely be a six month planning process. Not going to actually build it until 2018 which gives us good time to do the research and get things right. We're using what I hope are architects that will guide us through a lot of this but I'd still like to do as much reading on this as possible...so I can ask them the right questions etc.
A few relevant facts
- We're on mains gas and electricty
- Plot is about 2 acres
- House will be a relatively large (likely 4000sq ft plus)
- We have an old well
- We're currently not on mains sewerage but could be....and we don't have a septic tank as such either. Just a very deep pit under a lawn!
Things that have so far come up in conversation
- It might be possible to use the well for a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger of some sort...i.e. put coils of pipe down it rather than having to bury them in the garden ?
- Hot water system. Apparently none of the things that gets built into new houses is hot water being circulated around the house at the right temperature for baths/showers/washing up etc Rather than it being pumped at a much higher temperature and then being cooled in situ via the hot water supply. Seems to make a lot of sense to me ?
- Solar- Being used for both electricity and heating i.e. "wet" solar
- Insulation of the house is obviousaly massively important. Use of some "Passivhaus" standards without actually being a 100% Passivhaus ? Apparently things like window systems that comply/are approved for Passivhaus are very expensive but there are equivelent systems which perform equally well but aren't approved and are cheaper.
- Heating system. No idea here...have read some thread on here about under floor heating and that would definitely be the preference for downstairs.
I might well get some third party advice/contractor as whilst an architect should know all this stuff ultimately they are being used to design the house....and I really want to get this right and not have issues post build! If anyone has used one would be interested in a recommendation. We're in the South East (Buckinghamshire).
Many thanks
We're very early in the process...design isn't anywhere near finalised and we're about to go through what will likely be a six month planning process. Not going to actually build it until 2018 which gives us good time to do the research and get things right. We're using what I hope are architects that will guide us through a lot of this but I'd still like to do as much reading on this as possible...so I can ask them the right questions etc.
A few relevant facts
- We're on mains gas and electricty
- Plot is about 2 acres
- House will be a relatively large (likely 4000sq ft plus)
- We have an old well
- We're currently not on mains sewerage but could be....and we don't have a septic tank as such either. Just a very deep pit under a lawn!
Things that have so far come up in conversation
- It might be possible to use the well for a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger of some sort...i.e. put coils of pipe down it rather than having to bury them in the garden ?
- Hot water system. Apparently none of the things that gets built into new houses is hot water being circulated around the house at the right temperature for baths/showers/washing up etc Rather than it being pumped at a much higher temperature and then being cooled in situ via the hot water supply. Seems to make a lot of sense to me ?
- Solar- Being used for both electricity and heating i.e. "wet" solar
- Insulation of the house is obviousaly massively important. Use of some "Passivhaus" standards without actually being a 100% Passivhaus ? Apparently things like window systems that comply/are approved for Passivhaus are very expensive but there are equivelent systems which perform equally well but aren't approved and are cheaper.
- Heating system. No idea here...have read some thread on here about under floor heating and that would definitely be the preference for downstairs.
I might well get some third party advice/contractor as whilst an architect should know all this stuff ultimately they are being used to design the house....and I really want to get this right and not have issues post build! If anyone has used one would be interested in a recommendation. We're in the South East (Buckinghamshire).
Many thanks
worldwidewebs said:
Focus on the fabric of the building first then move on to the other stuff. Excellent air-tightness and insulation are the key ingredients and will make everything else a lot simpler
Yes, that seems to be the foundation! I guess finding a builder that knows what he's doing in this respect is absolutely key. S6PNJ said:
Cheib said:
- It might be possible to use the well for a ground source heat pump/heat exchanger of some sort...i.e. put coils of pipe down it rather than having to bury them in the garden?
We also have a well, about 3-4 ft diameter and 100ft deep and the bottom 30ft is water. We enquired about GSHP and using the well but was told it was no where near large enough for our heating requirements (25Kw) and that we'd just end up with a big lollypop! I clearly don't know how big or deep your well is but don't underestimate how much 'heat' is withdrawn over a period of time.All I can say is good luck and it sounds like a fabulous adventure! I look forward to the build thread!
It was a different architect who we aren't using that told me it could be used....
worldwidewebs said:
Cheib said:
worldwidewebs said:
Focus on the fabric of the building first then move on to the other stuff. Excellent air-tightness and insulation are the key ingredients and will make everything else a lot simpler
Yes, that seems to be the foundation! I guess finding a builder that knows what he's doing in this respect is absolutely key. Intention is that we'll live in this house for at least twenty years....I am 48 moved out of London 18 months ago and see ourselves living in this house until we have to/want to "downsize". So maybe that will make things like Triple Glazing worth considering assuming affordable obviously.
This has been very helpful already Gents. To summarise...
Assuming we go with a house with high quality insulation/MIPS and achieve an air tight house we then need MHVR. In addition to that we need heat source either although requirements of additional heat source should be relatively limited if the house is built properly and MHVR operates well ?
- Wet Solar (south facing on top of a hill, house won't be shaded)
- Air Source Heat Pump
- Biomass
- Wood Burner
We've already got a couple of wood burner's in the current house...wouldn't be without one.
As for the Triple Garage that's pretty much a necessity ! Well definitely a double garage plus a garage/shed you can never have enough internal combustion engines in your life. Compact Tractor, ride on mower, rotovator, lawn mower, wheeled strimmer etc etc
This has been very helpful already Gents. To summarise...
Assuming we go with a house with high quality insulation/MIPS and achieve an air tight house we then need MHVR. In addition to that we need heat source either although requirements of additional heat source should be relatively limited if the house is built properly and MHVR operates well ?
- Wet Solar (south facing on top of a hill, house won't be shaded)
- Air Source Heat Pump
- Biomass
- Wood Burner
We've already got a couple of wood burner's in the current house...wouldn't be without one.
As for the Triple Garage that's pretty much a necessity ! Well definitely a double garage plus a garage/shed you can never have enough internal combustion engines in your life. Compact Tractor, ride on mower, rotovator, lawn mower, wheeled strimmer etc etc
TA14 said:
Cheib said:
As for the Triple Garage that's pretty much a necessity ! Well definitely a double garage plus a garage/shed you can never have enough internal combustion engines in your life. Compact Tractor, ride on mower, rotovator, lawn mower, wheeled strimmer etc.
I don't understand how this can be less than a quad: one garage for your car and one for hers plus one for tractors etc. is three before you start talking about PH specials and workshops. For me a starting point would be the two everyday cars at the front with two special cars at the rear of a rectangular quad garage and then out buildings for tractors and workshops but since you have a lot of land a quadrangle layout with one side being the entrance and three sides having double garages (7m deep) with the four corners being (7m x 7m) workshops/bicycle/tractor stores would be great.Need to be realistic though. Maybe applying for the quadrangle in planning but only building two sides of it. As I have recently learnt if you apply for planning and start/complete part of the project the planning is effectively permanent. i.e. We could apply for the quad and only build two garages but be able to build the third at any time in the future.
In fact that's something we'll be doing for the whole project...we'll likely lose future PD rights so will be applying for anything and everything in terms of potential other buildings just in case we want to build those in the future.
Cheib said:
andy43 said:
If you're going solar thermal and gas and biomass/stove think about using a neutral point/thermal store instead of just an extra coil in the hot water cylinder.
Sorry...what's a neutral point/thermal store ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2IG5rKmIl4
Seems like a great piece of kit (no idea if that make is any good).
Happy Jim said:
Cheib, if you've not spent a few years immersing yourself in the self build scene then you would be wise to spend a day in Swindon....no really :-).....They have the National Self Build place there which is a thumping great big display warehouse for every sort of self build gizmo you've never thought of! foundation solutions, roofing solutions, eco stuff, a complete house inside, windows, doors, home automation, grey water recyle etc etc etc
You get to mooch around more suppliers demo stuff than you can imagine (with zero sales boys present to nag you) and if it's of interest you can scan a bar code and receive bumpf delivered to your house to peruse at your leisure.
Ignore the prices for admission, just phone/mail before the day and you get in for free.
Regards
Jim
Never heard of it....looks interesting! You get to mooch around more suppliers demo stuff than you can imagine (with zero sales boys present to nag you) and if it's of interest you can scan a bar code and receive bumpf delivered to your house to peruse at your leisure.
Ignore the prices for admission, just phone/mail before the day and you get in for free.
Regards
Jim
Croutons said:
A thread a few years old but packed with good stuff
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
That was a very helpful read....the complexities of concrete construction etc...blimey so much to think about. Kind of appeals to me though as it will be better for sound insulation in the house I am guessing. Until we moved out of London last year I'd had people living above me for twenty years so I like the idea of not hearing footsteps on the ceiling! http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The bit about having the larder as a cold room was interesting and one of those things that would make a big difference and be cheap to do as part of the build.
On the subject of AV/ Home Automation...will be going down the audio distribution definitely and obviously Cat5/6 everywhere. Home Automation itself I am not sure about beyond security etc I really think things like expensive lighting systems etc are a bit of a pain in the arse and expensive in the long run. Bloke at work built a new house a couple of years ago with some kind of Video distribution system....every time Sky move channels around he had to get the engineers in to re-programme the system for controlling via iPhone. He now uses the Sky remote!
chasingracecars said:
If it's a properly configured home automation then I can remote in from anywhere to adjust settings. Also we can install a device that talks the sky box and will do this for you. Not SkyQ though yet.
Lighting can save you money in the long run as lights can be switched off by PIR etc. Bathrooms etc. Whole house off at the front door and master bed, means you never accidently leave a light on. Holiday mode learns your normal light pattern and can replicate this when you are away. (Not green but good security)
Sounds great but expensive...Lighting can save you money in the long run as lights can be switched off by PIR etc. Bathrooms etc. Whole house off at the front door and master bed, means you never accidently leave a light on. Holiday mode learns your normal light pattern and can replicate this when you are away. (Not green but good security)
How much would the hardware be ?
How much would it cost to wire/install ?
How much would the ongoing service contract be ?
Assume 4000 sq ft 5 bed house, three bathrooms, four living spaces plus say three other rooms.
Overall I am happy to spend money as an investment in lower outgoings a) Because I think utility prices are only going one way and b) I've got maybe ten years left working so am thinking about costs in retirement.
Bore Hole is a possibility. All about the capital outlay/ongoing costs vs the payback though I suppose. As I said we have a septic "pit" so not on mains sewerage as it is...so in theory we could escape paying water rates full stop. I was also reading about rain water/grey water harvesting last night....bore hole might be cheaper than that.
There have been some negative comments above about GSHP vs ASHP....I know bugger all about these at the moment. IIRC correctly from previous reading a lot depends on your current costs and assumption about future energy costs, from what I remember the case for GSHP really only stacked up if your current heating was from oil or gas that you have delivered i.e. if you're on mains gas GSHP didn't stack up.
Bore Hole is a possibility. All about the capital outlay/ongoing costs vs the payback though I suppose. As I said we have a septic "pit" so not on mains sewerage as it is...so in theory we could escape paying water rates full stop. I was also reading about rain water/grey water harvesting last night....bore hole might be cheaper than that.
There have been some negative comments above about GSHP vs ASHP....I know bugger all about these at the moment. IIRC correctly from previous reading a lot depends on your current costs and assumption about future energy costs, from what I remember the case for GSHP really only stacked up if your current heating was from oil or gas that you have delivered i.e. if you're on mains gas GSHP didn't stack up.
paulrockliffe said:
Cheib said:
Sounds great but expensive...
How much would the hardware be ?
How much would it cost to wire/install ?
How much would the ongoing service contract be ?
Assume 4000 sq ft 5 bed house, three bathrooms, four living spaces plus say three other rooms.
I wouldn't get involved in any install where you don't understand it and have to rely on someone else to make sure it keeps pace with future developments. Other people are either unreliable or cost a lot of money and you can do all this sort of stuff yourself easily enough if you're switched on enough to work out how to get a house built.How much would the hardware be ?
How much would it cost to wire/install ?
How much would the ongoing service contract be ?
Assume 4000 sq ft 5 bed house, three bathrooms, four living spaces plus say three other rooms.
The future isn't distributed AV, because the market is limited by the cost of running wires everywhere. It's obvious that the future is smart TVs and devices like Chromecast, which are already cheap enough to be a better bet for most people than racks of expensive kit that are a pain in the backside to keep working as tech changes. Chromecast Audio can already be grouped to give you distributed audio over any device with an Aux or SPDIF input.
All you really need is a decent WiFi network - BT Homehub types won't keep up with the number of devices you'll end up with - and then drop in wires for ceiling speakers back to a suitable place to hide/host an amplifier and a Chromecast Audio. This can be anywhere with power basically, either in the room or in a central location like I've done. My setup is across 9 rooms using 8 CC Audios, £15 Lepai amplifiers and £20 eBay special ceiling speakers, so it can be done very inexpensively if you want.
For video, the only current issue is that broadcasting Sky TV to Chromecast is tricky, but rather than spending the money on AV distribution, just get Sky Q for that if it's essential. Plex, a cheap server and Chromecast is a great setup for most video sources.
For home automation type stuff what you really want to aim for on a new build is an install where your plugs and switches can be relay controlled. Wire back to a central point and then it's relatively simple to add whatever control you want in the future. But I reckon the future will be wireless again, because that's where the market has to be as most people can't easily wire things.
Not sure what's out there that covers this, but there are lots of options that are expensive and not really future-proof. In a few years time Google Home will have replaced 90% of the current market by doing everything that bit better and fully integrating everything. Things like WiFi light and socket face plates that are basically a manual switch and a WiFi switch controlling a relay, integrated controllers for washing machines, feedback form fridges/freezers for temperature, active NFC type tech for monitoring contents.
As a temporary solution we currently use a couple of Naim Muso's for our Music plus my main Hi-Fi system which is old school but high quality!
The one thing I would say is it's certainly worth having built in speakers...ideally you would want speakers that are both wired and wireless I suppose. If such a thing exists.
The idea of being future proof is great.....its just sodding hard to achieve. Though I suspect we've seen the big change in how the infrastructure works i.e. from a bespoke wired network per system to wireless which is what's happened in the last ten years.
C Lee Farquar said:
With regards to the well and rainwater harvesting.
I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
What a fantastic idea! I assume you have to get the well surveyed/assessed ? I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
Evanivitch said:
Cheib said:
C Lee Farquar said:
With regards to the well and rainwater harvesting.
I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
What a fantastic idea! I assume you have to get the well surveyed/assessed ? I have an old deep percolation well that doesn't fill very quickly.
I got building regs approval on our new build to divert all the rainwater into it. Gives you a free, installed rainwater harvesting tank.
C Lee Farquar said:
Yup, 100' would take a bit more bottle.
I think I'd be looking for a mate who wanted to take up potholing.
30' isn't bad! I don't have a clue how deep mine is. I might try and pull the concrete cover off this weekend and have a look (with a torch). I think it must be quite deep as we're on top of a hill and I guessing the valley floor is 100' below us.I think I'd be looking for a mate who wanted to take up potholing.
skintemma said:
We did a renovation a while back. Good call on knocking your whole place down, it'll work out far more cost effective and will have the VAT benefits.
I looked at a zillion different options before deciding how/what to build. We're not on mains gas so went with GSHP - it's excellent. Our entire energy bill (including lighting, etc) works out at an average £60 a month. The house is always lady-temperature spec! We also get a heat fund payback of £2500 per year for 7 years. We put the ground loops in with a mole drain which brought the cost right down.
Borehole for us wasn't cost effective as the water table was about £30K down! Water isn't as expensive as you think (although we do have a harvester for the garden - currently unconnected), it's the waste water that adds to the cost. A Klargester Bio Disc deals with our waste water - about £150 to service and desludge.
We used SIPS for the new extension and 3-bay garage with office above. The garage, for example, cost £22K to fabricate and install (and was up in 6 days, with two blokes). It's an excellent way to build. I'd definitely use it for any building in the future.
I didn't bother with solar as it wasn't cost effective for us - the incentives have changed too, I believe.
There's loads of info on a blog I wrote (I think it's still live, I haven't looked for an age) www.themeadenproject.wordpress.com. It covers quite a lot of detail about the thought processes behind the methods we used, you might find something of use in there.
(Still) Skintemma
That's very helpful thanks...will give the blog a full read over the weekend. The idea of energy costs being £60 a month is fantasy land for us at the moment (living in the house we intend to demolish).I looked at a zillion different options before deciding how/what to build. We're not on mains gas so went with GSHP - it's excellent. Our entire energy bill (including lighting, etc) works out at an average £60 a month. The house is always lady-temperature spec! We also get a heat fund payback of £2500 per year for 7 years. We put the ground loops in with a mole drain which brought the cost right down.
Borehole for us wasn't cost effective as the water table was about £30K down! Water isn't as expensive as you think (although we do have a harvester for the garden - currently unconnected), it's the waste water that adds to the cost. A Klargester Bio Disc deals with our waste water - about £150 to service and desludge.
We used SIPS for the new extension and 3-bay garage with office above. The garage, for example, cost £22K to fabricate and install (and was up in 6 days, with two blokes). It's an excellent way to build. I'd definitely use it for any building in the future.
I didn't bother with solar as it wasn't cost effective for us - the incentives have changed too, I believe.
There's loads of info on a blog I wrote (I think it's still live, I haven't looked for an age) www.themeadenproject.wordpress.com. It covers quite a lot of detail about the thought processes behind the methods we used, you might find something of use in there.
(Still) Skintemma
Reading about your Klargester Bio Disc has got me thinking....our current sewerage ends up in an unknown place i.e. a pit that "drains" somnewhere. When we hopefully re-build that's not going to pass building codes so will have to have a proper solution or connect to the mains sewer.
SIPS construction for the garage is certainly very interesting. We've had a very preliminary costing done...the QS estimated £33k for a timber framed double garage.
Vroom101 said:
Just worked out who you are (or at least who your husband is!). There'll be a nice 911 RS in that garage, then 
.
From what I read in all the build magazines, SIPS is really becoming popular, especially as it goes up so quickly. One thing that puts me off though, is that when I drill into a wall to put something up, I like to drill into something solid like brick or block. Drilling into wood or partition wall does doesn't sit right with me. Just my own hang-up, I know...
Slat Wall looks like a great solution for garages...and may well work well with SIPS ? https://storagemaker.co.uk/garage-storage-slatwall....From what I read in all the build magazines, SIPS is really becoming popular, especially as it goes up so quickly. One thing that puts me off though, is that when I drill into a wall to put something up, I like to drill into something solid like brick or block. Drilling into wood or partition wall does doesn't sit right with me. Just my own hang-up, I know...
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff