Any fish experts in the house?

[13m]

One of our children bought a tank and cold water fish recently. The fish are Danios and platys. We followed the instructions of the shop to the letter and have been back 6-7 times to have the water tested. Evidently we had "new tank syndrome".

The Platys have not been happy, swimming near the bottom, and tonight one died. Cue much wailing from the young owner.

We're scheduled to go back to have the water tested again tomorrow. Last time the nitrite reading was high.

I presume that the shop (Pets At Home) know what they are doing, however does anyone have any tips please? We don't want the trauma of another fatality - and the other Platy looks wobbly.

The Danios have been fine throughout by the way.

[13m]

Turn7 said:

Personally speaking :

PAH are dire in terms of aquatic knowledge.

I wouldnt have either of those species in an unheated tank.

Has anyone mentioned tank cycling to you ?

Whats the size and volume of the tank ?

Were all fish introduced after tank filled with water ?

How many fish ?

Tank cycling - you mean change 50% water, then 20% then 20% etc? If so yes.

Tank 21L I believe.

The Danios were introduced first and have thrived. Then the Platys.

There were 4 - two of each. Now one Platy only.

[13m]

AlexC1981 said:

Tank cycling refers to the nitrogen cycle. Fish produce ammonia. Bacteria grow in the filter and consume the ammonia and excrete nitrite. A different type of bacteria grows and consumes the nitrite and excretes nitrate, which is nowhere near as toxic as the first two chemicals. You have to do a weekly part-water change to get rid of the nitrate. It takes weeks for the right bacteria to grow so you have a stable cycle and zero ammonia and nitrite levels.

I assume your tank has a pump and filter? Do you know anyone with tank who might be able to donate some of their existing filter media? You can jump start the cycle by using donated media.

Alternatively get some Tetra Safe Start. It contains bacteria that usually takes ages to grow. It is one of the few products of its type that actually does help to get your tank started quicker. You can buy it at PAH. Don't add Tetra Safe Start within 24 hours of using a dechorinator or any sort of ammonia removal treatment as it will prevent TSS from working.

OK yes this has been explained. As I said, the last test showed high nitrites. Presumably that will self correct in time but we don't want to lose any more fish in the meantime.

[13m]

InductionRoar said:

Most good aquatic centres will give you some of their water from a well established tank (which is the correct PH) - this may settle it down sufficiently.

Put plenty of plants in there too.

Good luck.

Thank you.

[13m]

pills said:

Where in the country are you?

Near Nottingham.

The water was tested again today - high nitrite level.

We've bought some tablets that mat help and will do another series of water changes.

[13m]

Pat101 said:

Hi .

sorry for not reading the whole thread but what filtration are you using??

Cheers

Pat.

Don't know. It's a black rectangular one bought with the tank.

We put in the balls to sort out the water and this evening the second platy, which I though was a goner, is swimming about more happily.

[13m]

robbocop33 said:

Surprised more people arent mentioning about the danios,they're tropical fish needing warm water!!Well at least they were when i kept them alongside my neons,siamese fighter fish,mollies etc

The danios are still going strong. The one remaining platy is remaining still at the bottom of the tank.

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budgie smuggler said:

Well that process can take 6 - 8 weeks to complete. And it's usually 50%+ water changes you need each time, not 20%.
Think about it, 20% removes only 20% of the toxins (whether ammonia or nitrite), so you're leaving 80% in there. It's going to accumulate more and more each day until the bacteria grow.

So for now:

Keep doing big water changes daily (50%+) with (ideally) temperature matched, dechlorinated ('conditioned') water.

Cut right down on feeding, just a very small amount per day. (Those fish can live several weeks with none at all in fact.)

Don't replace the dead fish for a couple of weeks.

Good luck

edit: bugger, didn't see this was already covered above. +1 on the Tetra SafeStart advice, it's a good product.

Edited by budgie smuggler on Tuesday 16th February 11:30

Pretty much what we are doing, aside from we're using tap water.

[13m]

SeeFive said:

I recently set up a couple of new small (46ltr community / Amano shrimp and 15ltr fry / rcs) tanks with small hang on style filters in my apartment in a new area. A bit different to the massive tanks and huge high t/o canister / low t/o UV filters I had previously for fresh and marine trops, so I was worried about keeping such a small volume of water up to quality with my targeted borderline high stock levels.

I used Tetra Safe Start and a lot of plants on a few fish-in cycle. Absolutely brilliant, cycled completely very quickly (8-10 days) with no apparent stress to the fish but had an issue getting the nitrates down even with very large water changes. Could not get it below 40ppm no matter what i did, so could not complete my gradual stocking of diddy community fish and shrimps.

So seemingly out of ideas, for the hell of it I tested my tap water. Sure enough, nitrates at 40ppm straight out of the tap! I now use remineralised RO only for water changes and all seems to be ok (waits for all life to float upside down after such a rash statement).

You don't have to install an RO plant in house for small tanks, as remineralised RO is £1.50 for 10 litres from my local aquatics store and obviously has a 0ppm reading, which of course dilutes in-tank nitrates a lot better than some tap water sources containing higher nitrates. I do 20 litres a week across both tanks warmed in the plastic transportation container in a sink of hot water before changing it.

At your stage of the cycle, feed lightly, get some fast growing plants in and keep up the water changes, big ones as advised maybe with remineralised RO if you have nitrates present in your tap water and you will soon have it all in check. If you get a new cycle kick off for any reason, my advice given my recent experience with the product would be to lob in a suitably sized bottle of Tetra Safe Start to get it through quickly. Just don't do any water changes or bother testing water (the readings are weird and very misleading) for at least a week when using safe start.

Just a thought. Given that you have been worried about the health of your fish, have you used any medication in your tank? Many medications kill off the bacteria you need for the cycle, effectively meaning that you start the cycle all over again.

Good luck.

ETA: sorry, in case you don't know my shorthand, RO water is "Reverse Osmosis" processed water - essentially water with all the bad (and good) stuff for fishkeeping water stripped out. Remineralisation puts back the good stuff. If you don't remineralise RO before use, you will probably crash your PH pretty quickly and kill the fish that way instead of the pollutant way... Did you ever want to become a bloody scientist? Fishkeeping is a good way to start

Edited by SeeFive on Wednesday 17th February 02:23

Thanks for this.

Yes, I think we have high nitrites in the water anyway. Perhaps some bought-in water is the way forward.

[13m]

Okay, so Platty 2 is still alive but looking poorly.

I have abandoned PAH and called our local aquatic centre to see if they could sell me some RO water. They basically said, "don't waste your money, the other Platty will die shortly, buy more Danios when it does".

They also said stop rinsing the filter in the tank (which is what PAH said we should do) and change the water less often - weekly to 2 weekly. We have been changing 20% every 2 days. Can anyone venture an opinion on what is the correct frequency please?

We've home tested the tap and tank water. The tank water is showing far higher (dangerous) nitrite levels. So the nitrites are definitely being produced in the tank.

[13m]

SeeFive said:

Your aquarist is probably right. Sadly, the platy may be permanently damaged by the nitrite. Choices are to see what happens or euthanise. Personally, if the fish is not in obvious difficulty, I would hang in there. A mate of mine had a goldfish sick in his pond. He transferred it to a tank in the garage to treat it, and when he went to take a look later, it had gone. He looked down and it was in a bag of cement which was starting to set on its fins! After a wash out including gills with the hose pipe, it was out back in the tank with a cover this time, and it got healthy again. Absolutely unreal as concrete is really toxic to fish.

Unfortunately, I haven't any cement to dip the platy in. Would Pollyfilla be okay?

You suggest the option of euthanasia, how do I tell if the fish is in need of it? It's hanging around the bottom of the tank most of the time, but it still feeds. Perhaps basic thinking, but I tend to assume if an animal is feeding it isn't totally finished.

[13m]

Thank you.

[13m]

Okay, so filter washed out in bucket of tank water. Filter repositioned to disturb the surface / cause bubbles.

How often for the water changes? I've had that many answers my head is spinning.

[13m]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

Dear god! Another person who thinks fish keeping is just a case of buying a tank, filling it with water and chucking some fish in. No wonder you're suffering dead fish!

Your 21 litre tank is far too small for a beginner. Small tanks are much more difficult to maintain than larger tanks, because the small body of water is much more prone to rapid changes in water chemistry. I am keeping a 25 litre tropical tank, but I'm an experienced aquarist with many years experience.

Also, regardless of your level of experience, your 21 litre tank is far, far, far too small for keeping platies. It is no surprise to me that you're losing them. Do NOT buy any more platies; do some research on what types of fish you can keep in such a small tank (hint: there aren't many species that are suitable).

The fish you're keeping are NOT cold water species. Danios will tolerate cooler water but platies won't. You need a heater. In fact, danios are well-known for being tough and having good tolerance for ammonia and nitrite, which is why they're surviving. But they're still having a miserable time in your tank's toxic water.

If you've got high nitrites, you urgently need to reduce the toxicity of the water in your tank. One product you could use is Seachem Prime, which does precisely that: it will convert ammonia, nitrites and nitrates into less toxic forms. It also neutralises chlorine and chloramine in your tapwater - you haven't mentioned whether you're doing that. If your local fish shop doesn't sell it then order it from Amazon and pay extra for next-day delivery - you need it urgently. For your tank you need only a tiny dose (about 0.5 ml), so buy a plastic syringe from a chemist to help you measure out the dose.

I am really rather angry that you have subjected fish to such misery, when it is so easy these days to research how to set up a fish tank. Did you not do any reading before you did it?! Did you take any advice, and if so from whom? If your only source of information has been a teenager working at Pets at Home, then I despair - go to a proper aquatic shop such as a branch of Maidenhead Aquatics, which are much better and can be found in lots of garden centres.

You should seriously consider buying a much larger tank, of at least 70-80 litres and preferably 100 litres or more. Get a heater, and a filter that's large enough for the bigger tank. The danios will continue to survive while the new tank cycles, but do not add any more fish until the tank has ZERO ammonia and nitrites. Then very gradually increase the number of fish. By the way, danios are a schooling species and should be kept in groups of at least 5 or 6, and preferably at least 10 - but your 21 litre tank is far too small for that many. Two danios on their own will be suffering stress due to being separated from the rest of their shoal.

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 19th February 08:16

No, someone who went to the trouble of seeking the advice of a pet shop, then following that advice to the letter. I don't think my son could have been any more diligent.

But outside of your somewhat obnoxious start, thanks for the advice.

[13m]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

So what you're saying is that Pets at Home told you that a 21 litre tank was a suitable size for a beginner, and that danios and platies are cold water species, and it was they who told you you could simply fill with water and chuck the fish straight in immediately with no attempt to establish the tank first?

So the sum total of your research was turning up at a pet shop and having one conversation with a part-time shop assistant? And you think that's sufficient? The internet is awash with great information to help a beginner set up a tank successfully; did you not consider doing some wider research to check the quality of the advice you received at Pets at Home? If you had done five minutes' worth of Googling you'd have quickly discovered that the fish you were considering are tropical, not cold water, and you'd have read the fact that such a small tank is a potential disaster in inexperienced hands. It is laughable to suggest that you or your son were diligent.

The tone of my posts is not obnoxiousness; it is anger. I am very angry that your ignorance has subjected live fish to utter misery. I am also extremely angry at Pets at Home for giving you such truly terrible 'advice', and allowing you to buy totally the wrong fish for your tank when you simply weren't ready for them.

Out of interest, what age is your son, and to what extent did you supervise his purchases? Did Pets at Home sell a fish tank and fish to a child?

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 19th February 09:07

Initially we relied upon the advice of PAH, who seemed to be diligent in vetting us for suitability. We had no reason to doubt their advice. When things did not improve, we spoke to another branch of PAH, who echoed the advice of the first. When things still were not right I posted here and have had some very helpful responses. I also spoke to our nearest aquatic centre who broadly confirmed what PAH said to us in the first place.

Out of everyone who has offered advice, you are the only one who is angry. Everyone else has been sympathetic and helpful. That should probably tell you something.

The lad has been supervised throughout by my wife and we have done everything in our power to ensure that the problem is rectified as soon as possible.

If you want to offer advice, it will be gratefully received. If on the other hand you just want to be angry at someone, reserve your attention for someone that deserves it.

[13m]

Dr Mike Oxgreen said:

You want advice? Here you go...

• Please, buy a bigger tank. You are always going to struggle with such a small tank until you're much more experienced. You will also have a much wider choice of fish species in a larger tank.

• Buy a heater, unless you choose fish that are genuinely non-tropical (someone mentioned White Cloud Mountain Minnows, which can be kept in a centrally-heated room without a heater in the tank). But to be honest, there are not many temperate fish species commonly available - you'd be much better off buying a heater and keeping your tank somewhere between about 22 to 25 degrees (or possibly a touch higher depending on exactly which fish you choose), which will give you a much wider choice of fish species.

• Whatever you do, don't try to keep genuine cold-water fish in a tank that small - especially not goldfish. Biological filtration proceeds more slowly at lower temperatures, and goldfish are heavy polluters and grow far too big for that tank. You could keep a small population of smaller coldwater species if you went for a larger tank, but really goldfish are unsuitable for all but the largest tanks IMHO.

• Only start increasing the population of fish in your larger tank once you've achieved zero ammonia and nitrite, and then increase the population slowly to give your bacterial colony a chance to increase and adapt. Recent research shows that bacterial populations are much more complex than the simple Nitrobacter/Nitrosomonas model traditionally described, and you actually need different bacteria at different concentrations of ammonia and nitrite - so you need to give the little fellas plenty of time to adapt.

• Whilst you've still got any measurable quantity of ammonia or nitrite in your tank, you really must continue with 50% water changes every other day to reduce the toxicity to your fish. Provided you replace the water with properly dechlorinated and reasonably temperature-matched water, this will not inhibit the development of a bacterial colony, because the bacteria do not exist in the water in any significant numbers - they exist on the surface of substrate, plants, decorations and filter media. As I previously recommended, Seachem Prime will also reduce that toxicity, leaving the ammonia/nitrite still accessible to the bacterial colony.

Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Friday 19th February 16:13

Thank you for that.

[13m]

Poisson96 said:

Just also a heads up, I left my tanks when setup etc for 6 weeks before I even thought of adding fish, with the usual water changes and using other tankwater to start the filtration...

Ours would have been 10 days.

I must say that this has been an education. The key learning point I think is that fish are not a good pet for children. Firstly it would seem that the actual equipment required is outside pocket money budget, secondly it's quite an ordeal getting the conditions right and also the mortality is upsetting.

On that last point, even our local aquatic centre says they lose lots of platies.

[13m]

SeeFive said:

With regard to fish not being a good hobby for kids, with a few exceptions - yes I would agree. Tanks, especially small tanks take a religiously applied routine to keep fish friendly, and as we know kids and continued routine tend not to go well together.

It's not so much the adherence to routine, it's the complexity and anxiety attached to it all. There are better first time pets.

One of our children has a hamster, which seems altogether more suitable and again it was bought from PAH. He seems to be settling in well, though sometimes he becomes exhausted and we find him floating on the surface of the tank.

[13m]

Okay, just done a water test.

The nitrate reading is now ideal and the nitrite level has come down from "danger" to "caution".

Things are heading the right way and the platy seems happier.

Do we leave things alone or do another water change?

[13m]

Water change done. Would something like this do for the heater?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aquarium-Tropical-Marine...

If so what size? The tank is actually 24L.