Dog attacked for fourth time
Discussion
Just venting...
Our black lab has previously been bitten 3 times by Staffies, once while off the lead and twice on the lead. The horrible thing is the way they didn't act aggressive at all. He was "polite", wagging, submissive and they were acting normal, just sniffing each other - then *BAM* with no warning. After the last time (on lead) he developed a fear of other dogs on a lead, and after 4 years of being the most dog-friendly dog in the world he now acts aggressive when meeting dogs on a lead
.
Yesterday was at a local park, playing fetch with a ball launcher. He is still very dog friendly off the lead, but tends to keep his distance unless they come up to him. I spotted a Border Collie running at him from half way across the field with its teeth bared - obviously looking for trouble. It ran straight up to our Lab, who acted calm and happy until the moment the collie sank its teeth into his leg (his "brother" is a Border Collie so maybe he thought that's who was running at him).
The transformation was instant and quite funny - "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry" would be an appropriate catchphrase for him. In a split second the collie was flattened with a set of teeth around its neck. As soon as the collie submitted our Lab calmed down and backed away (very proud of him for that!)
... But now is he going to be scared of dogs off the lead, too?
Hard not to get pissed off with other dog owners sometimes.
Of course it was the usual "oh he's never done that before!" before spending 10 minutes chasing after him and screaming at him to stay so he could get the collie's lead on...
Our black lab has previously been bitten 3 times by Staffies, once while off the lead and twice on the lead. The horrible thing is the way they didn't act aggressive at all. He was "polite", wagging, submissive and they were acting normal, just sniffing each other - then *BAM* with no warning. After the last time (on lead) he developed a fear of other dogs on a lead, and after 4 years of being the most dog-friendly dog in the world he now acts aggressive when meeting dogs on a lead
.Yesterday was at a local park, playing fetch with a ball launcher. He is still very dog friendly off the lead, but tends to keep his distance unless they come up to him. I spotted a Border Collie running at him from half way across the field with its teeth bared - obviously looking for trouble. It ran straight up to our Lab, who acted calm and happy until the moment the collie sank its teeth into his leg (his "brother" is a Border Collie so maybe he thought that's who was running at him).
The transformation was instant and quite funny - "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry" would be an appropriate catchphrase for him. In a split second the collie was flattened with a set of teeth around its neck. As soon as the collie submitted our Lab calmed down and backed away (very proud of him for that!)
... But now is he going to be scared of dogs off the lead, too?
Hard not to get pissed off with other dog owners sometimes.
Of course it was the usual "oh he's never done that before!" before spending 10 minutes chasing after him and screaming at him to stay so he could get the collie's lead on...
.
BigLion - you could have given the same advice without the exaggerations or silly assumptions.
I appreciate you've seen dog owners reacting badly - I have too, and I'm sure most here have. Most people don't research and discuss their dogs' behaviour on pet forums so you're probably preaching to the wrong audience.
I don't react or pull on the lead or say anything, and I also don't/can't correct him when he does something silly because he's too delicate and even verbal praise can be overwhelming for him sometimes, let alone telling him off.
The last time my Lab was bitten on the lead was a Staffie who had good body language (a bit stiff, but relaxed enough)... I know bad doggy body language and he didn't have it. The owner is another story, she tightened the lead for absolutely no reason when her dog had done nothing wrong and that prompted it to bite and not let go.
My Lab has properly "snapped" at 2 dogs since then. The first time my Lab snapped at another dog (a German Shepherd) I was barely even looking because for 4 years he was the most dog-friendly dog I've ever seen, so I had no reason to think he would do it. The next time was at the vet (vaccinations). In the waiting room someone walked their dog up to mine to let them meet. I could tell my dog was a bit wound up (he stiffened up) but I left the lead loose and didn't say anything so I wouldn't influence him - that wasn't enough, he snapped anyway although the other dog didn't do anything wrong.
I will continue trying to help him get over it, but I'm not going to take the risk with any dogs unless the owner knows there's a risk of mine snapping. I can't let him frighten another dog the way he was so we now cross the road when another dog's coming. Yeah it sends the wrong message but I'm not risking it.
When the Collie was running towards him I didn't do/say anything, not that he would know - he was away looking for the tennis ball. He's bigger and tougher than a Collie (he beats his Collie brother up all the time when they're playing) so I left them to it. As I predicted he had no trouble flooring the Collie although I didn't expect him to be so quick to let go when the Collie submitted - very proud of him for that!
He's very delicate (mentally... physically he's made of steel) and every time he has a bad experience he refuses to get over it. He has been back to the park since the Collie incident and he was OK with the few dogs he met, although his body language was definitely stiffer than usual.
We have tried "dog trainers" (absolute crap... worse than crap) and an expensive qualified behaviourist (better but pretty much gave up when even "baby steps" got an aggressive reaction from the Lab). The best explanation we got was that it's extreme submissive behaviour. We are working very hard to try and build his confidence.
I've written about him before on this forum - he was the most socialised puppy I've ever had or seen. We took him through absolutely every scenario we could think of and he was perfect. Traffic/livestock/cats/water/dogs/children/loud noises... He was out all day every day being socialised and he was bullet-proof! He even successfully helped to socialise a couple of dogs in the extended family who were very dog aggressive, because his body language was so perfect and he didn't react when they snapped. He was an absolutely perfect puppy until about 1 year old when it all started going downhill for no reason we could see. He got scared of hard floors (we had to put rug "islands" all over the house for him), then he got fearful/aggressive while eating, then loud noises scared him, then walking around corners scared him, then zips scared him, then running water scared him... It kept getting worse for 3 years until about a year ago when he sorta leveled out. He is still really bad, but probably not getting worse. We've seen slight improvements in some things but it's ridiculous - if you pick up a carrier bag or turn on the tap he curls up with his tail between his legs and starts licking his lips and looking for an escape route... But then at the park he'll have the time of his life running and sliding face-first down steep rocky hills and jump into water that's colder than absolute zero. You wouldn't believe seeing him like that how much of a pampered princess he is at home.
I remember watching a really stupid episode of the Dog Whisperer where Cesar Milan tried to "dominate" a Lab who was extremely fearful/aggressive around food, because in Cesar's world every problem can be fixed in the exact same way. Predictably he got badly bitten and it wasn't a happy ending for the dog - the owners gave it up without trying any more appropriate remedies. The dog in that always reminded me of our Lab. Lovely temperament and very friendly/gentle, wouldn't hurt a fly - until he gets scared.
Anyway... sorry for the very long post! My point was that not every case can be fixed in 2 weeks and sometimes dogs do have mental health issues, which I'm guessing our Lab does.
I appreciate you've seen dog owners reacting badly - I have too, and I'm sure most here have. Most people don't research and discuss their dogs' behaviour on pet forums so you're probably preaching to the wrong audience.
I don't react or pull on the lead or say anything, and I also don't/can't correct him when he does something silly because he's too delicate and even verbal praise can be overwhelming for him sometimes, let alone telling him off.
The last time my Lab was bitten on the lead was a Staffie who had good body language (a bit stiff, but relaxed enough)... I know bad doggy body language and he didn't have it. The owner is another story, she tightened the lead for absolutely no reason when her dog had done nothing wrong and that prompted it to bite and not let go.
My Lab has properly "snapped" at 2 dogs since then. The first time my Lab snapped at another dog (a German Shepherd) I was barely even looking because for 4 years he was the most dog-friendly dog I've ever seen, so I had no reason to think he would do it. The next time was at the vet (vaccinations). In the waiting room someone walked their dog up to mine to let them meet. I could tell my dog was a bit wound up (he stiffened up) but I left the lead loose and didn't say anything so I wouldn't influence him - that wasn't enough, he snapped anyway although the other dog didn't do anything wrong.
I will continue trying to help him get over it, but I'm not going to take the risk with any dogs unless the owner knows there's a risk of mine snapping. I can't let him frighten another dog the way he was so we now cross the road when another dog's coming. Yeah it sends the wrong message but I'm not risking it.
When the Collie was running towards him I didn't do/say anything, not that he would know - he was away looking for the tennis ball. He's bigger and tougher than a Collie (he beats his Collie brother up all the time when they're playing) so I left them to it. As I predicted he had no trouble flooring the Collie although I didn't expect him to be so quick to let go when the Collie submitted - very proud of him for that!
He's very delicate (mentally... physically he's made of steel) and every time he has a bad experience he refuses to get over it. He has been back to the park since the Collie incident and he was OK with the few dogs he met, although his body language was definitely stiffer than usual.
We have tried "dog trainers" (absolute crap... worse than crap) and an expensive qualified behaviourist (better but pretty much gave up when even "baby steps" got an aggressive reaction from the Lab). The best explanation we got was that it's extreme submissive behaviour. We are working very hard to try and build his confidence.
I've written about him before on this forum - he was the most socialised puppy I've ever had or seen. We took him through absolutely every scenario we could think of and he was perfect. Traffic/livestock/cats/water/dogs/children/loud noises... He was out all day every day being socialised and he was bullet-proof! He even successfully helped to socialise a couple of dogs in the extended family who were very dog aggressive, because his body language was so perfect and he didn't react when they snapped. He was an absolutely perfect puppy until about 1 year old when it all started going downhill for no reason we could see. He got scared of hard floors (we had to put rug "islands" all over the house for him), then he got fearful/aggressive while eating, then loud noises scared him, then walking around corners scared him, then zips scared him, then running water scared him... It kept getting worse for 3 years until about a year ago when he sorta leveled out. He is still really bad, but probably not getting worse. We've seen slight improvements in some things but it's ridiculous - if you pick up a carrier bag or turn on the tap he curls up with his tail between his legs and starts licking his lips and looking for an escape route... But then at the park he'll have the time of his life running and sliding face-first down steep rocky hills and jump into water that's colder than absolute zero. You wouldn't believe seeing him like that how much of a pampered princess he is at home.
I remember watching a really stupid episode of the Dog Whisperer where Cesar Milan tried to "dominate" a Lab who was extremely fearful/aggressive around food, because in Cesar's world every problem can be fixed in the exact same way. Predictably he got badly bitten and it wasn't a happy ending for the dog - the owners gave it up without trying any more appropriate remedies. The dog in that always reminded me of our Lab. Lovely temperament and very friendly/gentle, wouldn't hurt a fly - until he gets scared.
Anyway... sorry for the very long post! My point was that not every case can be fixed in 2 weeks and sometimes dogs do have mental health issues, which I'm guessing our Lab does.
Edited by bigbob77 on Wednesday 27th April 23:06
BigLion said:
Have you had him neutered - hopefully he is intact ?
You don't break a dog's personality by neutering. That's equally silly to the vets who say it'll calm them down.
Have you tried medication - SSRIs equivalents?
Not yet, if he takes another turn for the worse then it's an option
If you are local I'm happy to spend some time with you and your lab at a local park.
Thanks but no thanks.
Re that dog whisperer episode iirc the lab was removed because there was a small child in he family and resource guarding was becoming an issue and hence CM said too much risk - however CM got to the point where he was able to put his hand in the bowl whilst the dog was eating (he used a false hand at first).
I still remember the dog's body language at the end of the episode with the fake hand. It looked scared and deflated. The poor thing needed something different. Not just "durrrr, doggy be bad, doggy thinks it's better than me, durrr doggy needs dominated". All he had to do was say "I made a mistake, the dog was scared and I approached it really aggressively, it was 100% my fault I got bitten and I'm going to come up with a better plan now."
The first time our Lab got aggressive over food I made the mistake of telling him off, not even that harshly but he couldn't cope with being told off at all - he ran to his bed shaking with his hackles up and growling. I accepted my mistake, now we've developed a routine he's happy with but if he ever does get wound up while eating I sit on the floor facing away from him - the least threatening position I can think of... He comes running over with his tail going 100mph and jumps into my lap for a cuddle.
I'm a software developer, not a dog whisperer, so I would expect someone like Cesar Milan to be more creative than that.
Edited to add: Just had a look through your post history. You have an uncanny way of finding fault with basically everything and everyone! Like in every single thread You don't break a dog's personality by neutering. That's equally silly to the vets who say it'll calm them down.
Have you tried medication - SSRIs equivalents?
Not yet, if he takes another turn for the worse then it's an option
If you are local I'm happy to spend some time with you and your lab at a local park.
Thanks but no thanks.
Re that dog whisperer episode iirc the lab was removed because there was a small child in he family and resource guarding was becoming an issue and hence CM said too much risk - however CM got to the point where he was able to put his hand in the bowl whilst the dog was eating (he used a false hand at first).
I still remember the dog's body language at the end of the episode with the fake hand. It looked scared and deflated. The poor thing needed something different. Not just "durrrr, doggy be bad, doggy thinks it's better than me, durrr doggy needs dominated". All he had to do was say "I made a mistake, the dog was scared and I approached it really aggressively, it was 100% my fault I got bitten and I'm going to come up with a better plan now."
The first time our Lab got aggressive over food I made the mistake of telling him off, not even that harshly but he couldn't cope with being told off at all - he ran to his bed shaking with his hackles up and growling. I accepted my mistake, now we've developed a routine he's happy with but if he ever does get wound up while eating I sit on the floor facing away from him - the least threatening position I can think of... He comes running over with his tail going 100mph and jumps into my lap for a cuddle.
I'm a software developer, not a dog whisperer, so I would expect someone like Cesar Milan to be more creative than that.
Edited by bigbob77 on Thursday 28th April 01:04
BigLion said:
I would never ever create a situation where he is allowed to avoid despite how stressful he may become during a short window of time - anxiety passes with exposure, avoidance means you leave your dog distressed for life.
You know those TV programmes where psychologists expose phobic people to their triggers - there's a lot more that goes on in the background, you only get to see the exciting bit at the end. But hey your armchair psychology helps you treat any dog within 2 weeks and that's great 
, I'll stick with the slower and gentler approach personally.You should extend your services to people, BTW... "I fix any anxiety within 2 weeks or your money back" - you'll make a fortune and I'll be your first customer
moorx said:
I'm glad that you seem to have CM sussed 
I'm definitely not suitably qualified to advise, but I do know of a very good dog forum where I am happy to ask for recommendations of behaviourists (if that is something you want to explore again)? I would need to know what area you're in if so.
Alternatively, if you would like to post yourself, I can give you the details.
Thanks for that, yes I would be interested in the details I'm definitely not suitably qualified to advise, but I do know of a very good dog forum where I am happy to ask for recommendations of behaviourists (if that is something you want to explore again)? I would need to know what area you're in if so.
Alternatively, if you would like to post yourself, I can give you the details.
He stopped getting worse about a year ago. He's still a PITA but slowly getting better so I'm sticking to our current routine. If things take a turn for the worse again I'll definitely explore new behaviourists, especially since I've found out our pet insurance will cover the cost!
BigLion - You're getting confused. I didn't say anything about keeping him on the lead? The opposite - he's a lot better behaved off the lead and both him and his "brother" are very obedient so no issues there.
BigLion said:
I was referencing the fact you want others to keep their dogs on leads to stop them attacking your lab.
Err... no, I didn't say that and never would. I do think some dog owners should teach their dogs to behave before letting them off in a public area. At the very least they should have reliable recall. Not like the Collie owner above who had to chase it around the park (screaming his head off) for 10 minutes to get its lead back on so they could go home.BigLion said:
Each to their own, but I'm out of this thread and wish everyone all the best.
That's OK I'm surprised there's anyone left on this thread after my earlier rant 
I find Cesar Milan entertaining. He's probably less bad than many dog trainers although that's really not saying much. But his programmes are just the highlights, they don't show his many failed attempts or the actual processes used, only the "fun" bits. The worst thing about him is that he has spawned millions of armchair behaviourists with just enough knowledge to get themselves into trouble.
Edited by bigbob77 on Thursday 28th April 17:06
BigLion said:
large powerful breeds whose very DNA is about being the alpha?
That doesn't make sense. Are you saying these breeds of dogs cannot co-exist - they must live as a single dog only? Dogs don't care what size they are. Some big powerful dogs are spoiled princesses, some tiny dogs are fearless killers, and vice-versa.I can't remember what your hero's take on that is... But I'd be really surprised if he ever said that big powerful dogs are wired differently to small dogs somehow?
BigLion said:
Oh by the way why not have a look at how Holly is now?
http://youtu.be/wlN6NsbWAQg
... Have you actually seen the full episode? That is how she was before. She was a submissive, playful, gentle dog... with fear issues while eating.http://youtu.be/wlN6NsbWAQg
I'm really sorry this thread seems to have turned me into this:
Yeah I don't think the black face thing is to blame, although it makes sense that it would be a small factor especially to more visual dogs like Collies.
The Collie's owner had no control at all over his dog and it should never have been loose in that state. He had three dogs and the other two were fine. I remember he was also holding a tennis ball launcher... I know my Collie gets jealous if I pay attention to other dogs while I should be throwing the ball. Maybe this other Collie got confused and saw my Lab as "competition" between him and the ball. Who knows.
Anyway, thanks for all the helpful opinions/advice on this thread. However I am going to ignore them all and instead follow BL's advice and show my Lab who's alpha! How dare he be scared!?? If I see even one little hint of fear in his eyes HE IS GOING DOWN
The Collie's owner had no control at all over his dog and it should never have been loose in that state. He had three dogs and the other two were fine. I remember he was also holding a tennis ball launcher... I know my Collie gets jealous if I pay attention to other dogs while I should be throwing the ball. Maybe this other Collie got confused and saw my Lab as "competition" between him and the ball. Who knows.
Anyway, thanks for all the helpful opinions/advice on this thread. However I am going to ignore them all and instead follow BL's advice and show my Lab who's alpha! How dare he be scared!?? If I see even one little hint of fear in his eyes HE IS GOING DOWN
robbocop33 said:
I've heard of two dog attacks in my area lately,they've both been by Border Collies??Had another strange realisation about Collies around my area the other day,when i'm out and about with my dog it just struck me like a bolt at the blue that every time i've ever seen Collies they don't seem to walk about,sniff,piddle,then walk,then sniff,then piddle etc like normal dogs.They just seem to spend all their time staring at their owners and wait to get something thrown!:-)
I'm sure most people here (dog enthusiasts) know this already, but nowhere near enough Border Collie owners know this before getting a pup... Border Collies are pure working dogs. They pretty much never switch off and everything they do is 110%. Even giving them a cuddle - it can't just be a pat like other dogs, it gets seriously intense sometimes and god help you if you try to stop or take your hand away 
. If you don't keep them busy they won't just lie there bored - they will find something to keep themselves busy with.They are incredible dogs, the things they can do and learn are amazing... But they are also a huge PITA! My BC gets several walks during the day, then after work goes to the park and plays with the ball launcher until he flops over on the grass out of breath (takes about 50 throws and I throw it really far)... By the time we get home (5 minute drive) it's all forgotten and he's like a big leech constantly demanding attention!
No wonder half of the Border Collies I see on walks either act aggressive or stalk every car that passes!
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