Christmas Bad News
Discussion
Chaps, sad post this. Posting here as no-one really knows the situation, can’t tell anyone for reasons you will see, and would just like to vent. When reading about this situation I saw lots of posts by women on forums for mothers, so please accept me as treating PH as a bit of a “Mumsnet for blokes” and asking for advice/perspective/virtual shoulder to cry on, as well as the need for a rant.
As some of you may know, Lady F and I were very excited to be pregnant. We had told (very few) people (I told hundreds on here, but that is not really the same!). We were terribly excited.
Well, as the Fates hate us, at our 13 week scan, they discovered abnormalities, confirmed by a CVS test, confirming that the baby has Trisoma 13, Patau Syndrome. Likelihood of being born alive minimal, and if so, of surviving to after 4 months minimal. Likelihood of birth defects, well, pretty much certain. The scan showed half a heart, missing limbs and all sorts of horrors.
Unsurprisingly, the doctors advised termination, and that is what we are doing, this Friday. The timing sucks – whilst something like this will never come at a good time, having an abortion just before Christmas (and the day after her birthday) has to rank as a new low for my poor wife.
We are both devastated. One of the worst things about this is that it is not just dealing with a miscarriage – it is being all excited, getting more excited when seeing a heartbeat, then looking at the faces of the doctors in the room as they look at the ultrasound and realise that something is very, very wrong. And then realising that you need to go and have an abortion. At Christmas.
The NHS way of doing things has genuinely not helped.They had overbooked secondary scan appointments so having been told that something was seriously wrong, we were left alone in a room for 2 hours before there was any other information. We then (being in a teaching hospital) had another scan and CVS test done whilst no words apart from instructions were imparted to us. I watched, holding Lady F’s hand as she cried, whilst the doctors had hushed conversations amongst themselves and refused to answer my questions. Finally a woman consultant arrived who finally showed some compassion and started telling us things. The whole experience was awful. They offered no advice on what procedure for termination would be best for us, just gave us a phone number and sent us on our way. I spent most of the evening reading about chromosomal issues, abortion and other such fun issues, with no advice or guidance whatsoever.
This is not a lack of resources issue (apart from the wait). This is a hiring people for delicate tasks who have no interest in helping you, even giving you a kind word, or in any way trying to do anything but basic, necessary medical care. Basic, hman skills were lacking. The most interest they showed was when they told us that this was “very interesting” and asked if they could bring some students in. At this point, I am ashamed to say I finally lost my rag and told them to go f
k themselves.
The icing on the cake was of course a resource issue, with the NHS not being able to do the termination themselves due to having no capacity, and us effectively having to arrange it ourselves with a private clinic (who have been amazing, to be fair, displaying all the kindness and efficiency lacking from our national health service).
This comes across with me being angry at the free health service we all get, when I should be angry at the situation. Well, I am angry with both – but regarding the process, it was actually relatively efficient (we were in and out in 6 hours with all the scans and tests done), but it was also cold, dehumanising and made a bad situation even worse. You haven’t felt anger until you have heard your own wife on the phone, begging the midwife for help/guidance in organising an abortion of your first child, and being given a phone number for a private clinic and being told it would be faster if we did it all ourselves. Rage doesn’t even begin to cover the way I feel about the whole situation, and the way that Lady F had to do so much herself, in her terrible state.
A genetic test means that we will be able to determine if this was a freak chance, or if there is something wrong with me or Lady F. I would obviously like to know this, to save ourselves from all of this again if we can. However, the final genetic testing of the material from the foetus needs to be taken to Kings NHS before they close for Christmas at 5pm on Friday – there is no out of hours delivery. So I have to drive the tissue from our dead child over there on Friday afternoon or, if the procedure takes longer, keep it in my fridge over the Christmas period and deliver it next week. It may seem like a small thing, but that, on top of everything else, fking sucks.
And to cap it all off, in proper PH style, I had even put the personal plate on my Morgan on retention, and was about to accept a low offer for it to get rid of it fast and move onto a fun family wagon. I have thankfully just managed to stop the sale.
Sod this for a game of soldiers, frankly..
As some of you may know, Lady F and I were very excited to be pregnant. We had told (very few) people (I told hundreds on here, but that is not really the same!). We were terribly excited.
Well, as the Fates hate us, at our 13 week scan, they discovered abnormalities, confirmed by a CVS test, confirming that the baby has Trisoma 13, Patau Syndrome. Likelihood of being born alive minimal, and if so, of surviving to after 4 months minimal. Likelihood of birth defects, well, pretty much certain. The scan showed half a heart, missing limbs and all sorts of horrors.
Unsurprisingly, the doctors advised termination, and that is what we are doing, this Friday. The timing sucks – whilst something like this will never come at a good time, having an abortion just before Christmas (and the day after her birthday) has to rank as a new low for my poor wife.
We are both devastated. One of the worst things about this is that it is not just dealing with a miscarriage – it is being all excited, getting more excited when seeing a heartbeat, then looking at the faces of the doctors in the room as they look at the ultrasound and realise that something is very, very wrong. And then realising that you need to go and have an abortion. At Christmas.
The NHS way of doing things has genuinely not helped.They had overbooked secondary scan appointments so having been told that something was seriously wrong, we were left alone in a room for 2 hours before there was any other information. We then (being in a teaching hospital) had another scan and CVS test done whilst no words apart from instructions were imparted to us. I watched, holding Lady F’s hand as she cried, whilst the doctors had hushed conversations amongst themselves and refused to answer my questions. Finally a woman consultant arrived who finally showed some compassion and started telling us things. The whole experience was awful. They offered no advice on what procedure for termination would be best for us, just gave us a phone number and sent us on our way. I spent most of the evening reading about chromosomal issues, abortion and other such fun issues, with no advice or guidance whatsoever.
This is not a lack of resources issue (apart from the wait). This is a hiring people for delicate tasks who have no interest in helping you, even giving you a kind word, or in any way trying to do anything but basic, necessary medical care. Basic, hman skills were lacking. The most interest they showed was when they told us that this was “very interesting” and asked if they could bring some students in. At this point, I am ashamed to say I finally lost my rag and told them to go f
k themselves.The icing on the cake was of course a resource issue, with the NHS not being able to do the termination themselves due to having no capacity, and us effectively having to arrange it ourselves with a private clinic (who have been amazing, to be fair, displaying all the kindness and efficiency lacking from our national health service).
This comes across with me being angry at the free health service we all get, when I should be angry at the situation. Well, I am angry with both – but regarding the process, it was actually relatively efficient (we were in and out in 6 hours with all the scans and tests done), but it was also cold, dehumanising and made a bad situation even worse. You haven’t felt anger until you have heard your own wife on the phone, begging the midwife for help/guidance in organising an abortion of your first child, and being given a phone number for a private clinic and being told it would be faster if we did it all ourselves. Rage doesn’t even begin to cover the way I feel about the whole situation, and the way that Lady F had to do so much herself, in her terrible state.
A genetic test means that we will be able to determine if this was a freak chance, or if there is something wrong with me or Lady F. I would obviously like to know this, to save ourselves from all of this again if we can. However, the final genetic testing of the material from the foetus needs to be taken to Kings NHS before they close for Christmas at 5pm on Friday – there is no out of hours delivery. So I have to drive the tissue from our dead child over there on Friday afternoon or, if the procedure takes longer, keep it in my fridge over the Christmas period and deliver it next week. It may seem like a small thing, but that, on top of everything else, f
king sucks.And to cap it all off, in proper PH style, I had even put the personal plate on my Morgan on retention, and was about to accept a low offer for it to get rid of it fast and move onto a fun family wagon. I have thankfully just managed to stop the sale.
Sod this for a game of soldiers, frankly..
Thanks all. When I can't really talk to anyone about this, being able to vent on here, and seeing your messages, as well as knowing others have gone through this, helps more than you know.
As someone else said - if this is the worst thing that happens to us in our lives, that in itself is a blessing. But right now, in the middle of it all, this feels pretty awful.
In my head I am asking questions why "why am I crying about a child I never even knew", and "why is this loss of something that was nothing but a hope anyway such a sting". I think it is that - this was our first pregnancy, we're both healthy, so neither of us thought anything could go wrong, we started adjusting our lives and our expectations.
A year ago I didn't really know if I wanted children. Now, having lost the chance of my own (hopefully temporarily), there's nothing I want more. Human nature is a puzzle, eh?
As someone else said - if this is the worst thing that happens to us in our lives, that in itself is a blessing. But right now, in the middle of it all, this feels pretty awful.
In my head I am asking questions why "why am I crying about a child I never even knew", and "why is this loss of something that was nothing but a hope anyway such a sting". I think it is that - this was our first pregnancy, we're both healthy, so neither of us thought anything could go wrong, we started adjusting our lives and our expectations.
A year ago I didn't really know if I wanted children. Now, having lost the chance of my own (hopefully temporarily), there's nothing I want more. Human nature is a puzzle, eh?
Chaps, I cannot tell you how much help this thread (and a few personal messages) have been. It is also humbling to see that something I thought was such a personal tragedy is in fact something so common - this has put things in perspective, and made me get my chin up and push on, rather than wallowing.
Knowing that others have been through this and come through not just intact, but also to go on and have happy, healthy children, is giving me a real sense of hope. Thank you, and my many, many commiserations to those who have had similar. This feels so awful: I can barely imagine what those of you who went through it repeatedly must have felt like, and the strength of character shown by you and your partners to get up from the floor, re-group, and try again. That is some pretty strong stuff, and I admire you for it and will be taking some inspiration from you.
In an odd twist, one of my very best friends of 20 years called me yesterday - he had read the thread, and knew my handle on here. Although he had never before talked about it, it turns out that he and his wife went through something very similar, as well as a number of miscarriages. My heart went out to him, and the thought of the two beautiful children he and his wife now have gave me huge hope for the future.
We are gearing up for tomorrow's horror at the clinic. Packing stuff today as we fly to see her parents in the USA on Boxing Day (safe to do so, I am told - I wanted to cancel). Currently packing all our ski gear - Lady F is joking that at least she now gets to go skiing rather than hang around indoors! Strong spirit and typical of Lady F - but perhaps a bit ambitious...not that I could stop her dropping into some hideously hardcore mogul field even if I tried.
Thanks guys. Really.
Knowing that others have been through this and come through not just intact, but also to go on and have happy, healthy children, is giving me a real sense of hope. Thank you, and my many, many commiserations to those who have had similar. This feels so awful: I can barely imagine what those of you who went through it repeatedly must have felt like, and the strength of character shown by you and your partners to get up from the floor, re-group, and try again. That is some pretty strong stuff, and I admire you for it and will be taking some inspiration from you.
In an odd twist, one of my very best friends of 20 years called me yesterday - he had read the thread, and knew my handle on here. Although he had never before talked about it, it turns out that he and his wife went through something very similar, as well as a number of miscarriages. My heart went out to him, and the thought of the two beautiful children he and his wife now have gave me huge hope for the future.
We are gearing up for tomorrow's horror at the clinic. Packing stuff today as we fly to see her parents in the USA on Boxing Day (safe to do so, I am told - I wanted to cancel). Currently packing all our ski gear - Lady F is joking that at least she now gets to go skiing rather than hang around indoors! Strong spirit and typical of Lady F - but perhaps a bit ambitious...not that I could stop her dropping into some hideously hardcore mogul field even if I tried.
Thanks guys. Really.
Oh, and in another twist, my Morgan, up for sale as I felt something more practical would be required for the new arrival, sold. I tried to stop the sale, but in the end could not - and on reflection, that's probably a good thing.
While Lady F is recovering I shall be perusing the Classifieds and deciding what form the new toy, with no practical purposes whatsoever, should take. Something that she may actually enjoy driving...
While Lady F is recovering I shall be perusing the Classifieds and deciding what form the new toy, with no practical purposes whatsoever, should take. Something that she may actually enjoy driving...
Edited by Harry Flashman on Thursday 22 December 12:25
Smitters said:
Two things.
First, I'm right with you. We had our 13 week scan last week. No heartbeat sound. No wriggling. Just total dread. They can see a six week old development, but no detectable heartbeat. Cue lots of quizzing about dates. We're certain we're 13 weeks. We were given a leaflet and sent home, told we'd get a call to arrange another more detailed scan, maybe that afternoon, but within 24 hours.
24 hours later we're calling the hospital, expecting to arrange to come in asap, only to be told that the next scan is in two weeks time, so they can confirm no growth and then proceed from there. I get why, but given our date certainty, we are sure. Thus, we are "enjoying" Christmas knowing that on the 28th we go for our second scan, instead of being away with the OHs parents and all the while, there is a distinct possibility the physical miscarriage may start.
So, that's obviously st. And no help to you, except to know other people get how st you feel.
Second, please don't immediately buy another two seater. Stick the money somewhere it can grow at an irritatingly small pace and buy a nicer family wagon when the time comes. Or go and buy the family wagon anyway. At least wait until the genetic tests are done and some time has passed, to absorb and plan the next car step. Just my humble opinion, but I don't think the message a newly miscarried wife needs from hubby is that he's searching for a sports car with no room for a baby, no matter how resilient she is.
I am SO sorry that you are going through this now as well - my heart goes out to you.First, I'm right with you. We had our 13 week scan last week. No heartbeat sound. No wriggling. Just total dread. They can see a six week old development, but no detectable heartbeat. Cue lots of quizzing about dates. We're certain we're 13 weeks. We were given a leaflet and sent home, told we'd get a call to arrange another more detailed scan, maybe that afternoon, but within 24 hours.
24 hours later we're calling the hospital, expecting to arrange to come in asap, only to be told that the next scan is in two weeks time, so they can confirm no growth and then proceed from there. I get why, but given our date certainty, we are sure. Thus, we are "enjoying" Christmas knowing that on the 28th we go for our second scan, instead of being away with the OHs parents and all the while, there is a distinct possibility the physical miscarriage may start.
So, that's obviously s
t. And no help to you, except to know other people get how st you feel.Second, please don't immediately buy another two seater. Stick the money somewhere it can grow at an irritatingly small pace and buy a nicer family wagon when the time comes. Or go and buy the family wagon anyway. At least wait until the genetic tests are done and some time has passed, to absorb and plan the next car step. Just my humble opinion, but I don't think the message a newly miscarried wife needs from hubby is that he's searching for a sports car with no room for a baby, no matter how resilient she is.
I hear you on the sports car. Brain is all over the shop at the moment. I am a very lucky man and have an Aston to call on as well. I am going to use it a lot to take Lady F to lots of nice places in the months to come, while we recover and work out what to do next. Lots of nice places. Hopefully where we can conceive a healthy child.
They just wheeled her into the anaesthetic room to put her under general, and I fell to pieces when they asked me to let go of her hand.
I know that this is just a minor procedure and a small bump in the road for us, but right now it feels huge and appalling.
Sitting in the waiting room for her to come out in an hour if all goes ok. Then I have to take the samples of our dead baby to the genetics lab in Goodge Street myself - couriers etc didn't work out, and Lady F didn't want to ask friends for help, wanting me to do this as she knows she can rely on me. Am in bits. Can't even imagine what she's going through right now.
This is properly awful.
I know that this is just a minor procedure and a small bump in the road for us, but right now it feels huge and appalling.
Sitting in the waiting room for her to come out in an hour if all goes ok. Then I have to take the samples of our dead baby to the genetics lab in Goodge Street myself - couriers etc didn't work out, and Lady F didn't want to ask friends for help, wanting me to do this as she knows she can rely on me. Am in bits. Can't even imagine what she's going through right now.
This is properly awful.
Hello from sunny Utah, all. The good news is that one week on from the termination, Lady F is improving, with far fewer tears, and her body slowly returning to normal.
We are with her family on holiday in the US, and her cousin has been here with their 4 month old baby girl. I thought that this would be really hard on Lady F - but actually it seems to have given her hope that we could have better luck next time, and that maybe we were just unlucky. We are still waiting for test results, which hopefully will show that we do not have problems, and that we were just unlucky. If there is a problem, we'll start making other plans.
It's been a weird week - a lot has happened: abortion, Christmas, flights to the USA, New Year. It feels a long time ago that we were in the clinic. Emotions have been up and down - I think I am over it, really, but I am watching my wife closely as I think she is soldiering through and hiding some grief/anger. She's been a trooper though - she's even insisted on going skiing most days, and when she hasn't, I've been staying home with her and whisking her off for spas and other treats. Spending the nappy budget! Keeping her distracted has been the key and I feel very lucky we are able to spoil ourselves a bit and take minds off things.
Interestingly, whilst Lady F is an exercise addict and generally in good shape, now that the baby has gone, her body is revealing how punishing a pregnancy really is. She is tired, feels flabby and simply cannot do the sort of things she normally can (so no black mogul runs, for example - she cannot keep up with her brothers on a family ski day, and is skiing with her 75 year old father, which is frustrating for her). She is very upset and angry angry about this - I think it is an outlet for other grief. Women really go through a lot more than us chaps in this situation. That may sound obvious, but when you see it first hand, it's a bit humbling.
A friend has recommended a good counsellor close to us who has experience in this area, and I think we will be going, together. Talking about this without going in circles is hard, and conversations are upsetting and raw, even for a couple like us, who generally like communicating with each other.
Thanks for all your thoughts, and especially to those of you who shared your own heartbreaking stories - I wish you all the best for your futures, and thank you for the hope you have given me. Please use this thread to post abut stuff if you find it cathartic - I certainly have. This should be for everyone who has been through something like this, not just the Flashmans (Flashmen?).
I think I am going to do something for a charity that helps parents to get through this stuff: those that do not have the financial resources that we have been able to call on. This must be very tough for anyone, and doubly so if you cannot afford some counselling and help. Maybe I can give something back for the generous help and support I have received from you, friends and family over the last week or so.
Happy New Year all. I hope 2017 is a good one for you all.
We are with her family on holiday in the US, and her cousin has been here with their 4 month old baby girl. I thought that this would be really hard on Lady F - but actually it seems to have given her hope that we could have better luck next time, and that maybe we were just unlucky. We are still waiting for test results, which hopefully will show that we do not have problems, and that we were just unlucky. If there is a problem, we'll start making other plans.
It's been a weird week - a lot has happened: abortion, Christmas, flights to the USA, New Year. It feels a long time ago that we were in the clinic. Emotions have been up and down - I think I am over it, really, but I am watching my wife closely as I think she is soldiering through and hiding some grief/anger. She's been a trooper though - she's even insisted on going skiing most days, and when she hasn't, I've been staying home with her and whisking her off for spas and other treats. Spending the nappy budget! Keeping her distracted has been the key and I feel very lucky we are able to spoil ourselves a bit and take minds off things.
Interestingly, whilst Lady F is an exercise addict and generally in good shape, now that the baby has gone, her body is revealing how punishing a pregnancy really is. She is tired, feels flabby and simply cannot do the sort of things she normally can (so no black mogul runs, for example - she cannot keep up with her brothers on a family ski day, and is skiing with her 75 year old father, which is frustrating for her). She is very upset and angry angry about this - I think it is an outlet for other grief. Women really go through a lot more than us chaps in this situation. That may sound obvious, but when you see it first hand, it's a bit humbling.
A friend has recommended a good counsellor close to us who has experience in this area, and I think we will be going, together. Talking about this without going in circles is hard, and conversations are upsetting and raw, even for a couple like us, who generally like communicating with each other.
Thanks for all your thoughts, and especially to those of you who shared your own heartbreaking stories - I wish you all the best for your futures, and thank you for the hope you have given me. Please use this thread to post abut stuff if you find it cathartic - I certainly have. This should be for everyone who has been through something like this, not just the Flashmans (Flashmen?).
I think I am going to do something for a charity that helps parents to get through this stuff: those that do not have the financial resources that we have been able to call on. This must be very tough for anyone, and doubly so if you cannot afford some counselling and help. Maybe I can give something back for the generous help and support I have received from you, friends and family over the last week or so.
Happy New Year all. I hope 2017 is a good one for you all.
Thanks Jim - and to everyone.
Lady F unfortunately had some complications with the abortion, which means she really hasn't had a great January 2017. But her hormones are back to normal, her body is largely recovered and she seems largely herself again, which is great. She's back to her punishing exercise routine, so at least is getting back into her customary great shape. The downside is that I now have to go to the gym so as not to be ashamed. And I hate the gym.
It's quite bemusing when someone who is normally ultra rational becomes either sad or angry at the drop of a hat: you have to bite your tongue and realise that she enjoys it all even less than you do, and needs a hug, not an argument. Poor girl.
We have started doing some work for a local support group that helps people who go through miscarriages and worse, still births: NHS gives you a session of counselling, but that's it now, due to them needing money for more critical things: so these local groups/quasi charities have popped up and need volunteers. Lady F especially is finding it rewarding and constructive - I was scared it would make her dwell on things, but it hasn't, which is great.
I am helping by trying to buy another two seat sports car, as we are not having a kid just yet. This is most likely not actually helping at all, but Lady F is taking it all in good humour - I don't think she knows how serious I am about buying a good TVR Tuscan...
Lady F unfortunately had some complications with the abortion, which means she really hasn't had a great January 2017. But her hormones are back to normal, her body is largely recovered and she seems largely herself again, which is great. She's back to her punishing exercise routine, so at least is getting back into her customary great shape. The downside is that I now have to go to the gym so as not to be ashamed. And I hate the gym.
It's quite bemusing when someone who is normally ultra rational becomes either sad or angry at the drop of a hat: you have to bite your tongue and realise that she enjoys it all even less than you do, and needs a hug, not an argument. Poor girl.
We have started doing some work for a local support group that helps people who go through miscarriages and worse, still births: NHS gives you a session of counselling, but that's it now, due to them needing money for more critical things: so these local groups/quasi charities have popped up and need volunteers. Lady F especially is finding it rewarding and constructive - I was scared it would make her dwell on things, but it hasn't, which is great.
I am helping by trying to buy another two seat sports car, as we are not having a kid just yet. This is most likely not actually helping at all, but Lady F is taking it all in good humour - I don't think she knows how serious I am about buying a good TVR Tuscan...
princeperch said:
I read this at Christmas and it sent a shiver down my spine if I'm honest.
Fast forward 3 months or so, and it's real.
10' week scan today, no heartbeat detected. This is in addition to the wife having the severe form of morning sickness for the past 6 week and being off work, having to be admitted to hospital on a drip once.
She's not even sure if she wants to go through it again after this.
Now we have an evening of her running to the bog expelling what was meant to be our first kid in a few months.
I
I'm pragmatic about it. So is she to a certain extent. It's still fking st.
I am so, so sorry to hear this. Trust me, I feel for you both, big time.Fast forward 3 months or so, and it's real.
10' week scan today, no heartbeat detected. This is in addition to the wife having the severe form of morning sickness for the past 6 week and being off work, having to be admitted to hospital on a drip once.
She's not even sure if she wants to go through it again after this.
Now we have an evening of her running to the bog expelling what was meant to be our first kid in a few months.
I
I'm pragmatic about it. So is she to a certain extent. It's still f
king st. Anything I can do to help, even if it's just a chat on or off-thread, let me know.
We have not conceived since, but it does get less raw, really. If Mrs PP is anything like Lady F, she'll need some care and love right now - as will you. Help each other out: you'll come out even stronger than before if you can hold each other up through this, I promise!
Wishing you both the best during a rubbish situation.
Also PP, my wife also felt that she never wanted to go through pregnancy again after her rough first trimester. It has taken a while for her to even think about putting herself through it again. We're both still a bit scared of it all, to be honest, but are beginning to get out heads around it. The way you both feel now will change.
Edited by Harry Flashman on Saturday 25th March 00:03
That is AWESOME news!
And in a twist of fate Lady F is also pregnant after 10 months of trying - but very early days and we are both terrified it's going to go wrong again. Very odd experience: none of the excitement of the last time, only dread that it's all going to go south again. We are going for a private early scan on Wednesday - 8 weeks. Useless really as they won't be able to tell if it has chromosomal deficiencies like the last time, but we both felt we had to do something...
Well done PP. hopefully in a few weeks we'll join you in celebration!
And in a twist of fate Lady F is also pregnant after 10 months of trying - but very early days and we are both terrified it's going to go wrong again. Very odd experience: none of the excitement of the last time, only dread that it's all going to go south again. We are going for a private early scan on Wednesday - 8 weeks. Useless really as they won't be able to tell if it has chromosomal deficiencies like the last time, but we both felt we had to do something...
Well done PP. hopefully in a few weeks we'll join you in celebration!
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