Auction House Shenanigans
Discussion
I inherited a load of 'antiques' when my grandfather died, I use that term loosely as it was mostly junk but I sent it to a local (supposedly reputable) auction house.
The auction was back in January, they charge you £4 per lot plus 18% commission on sales + VAT, when an item sells you have to wait 6 weeks before they pay you.
Some of the items were 19th century Chinese vases, they had a guide price of £80-£120 and £150-£200 respectively. The former sold for £42 and the latter £70 which I guess is just the way the die falls, right? However on the original pre-sales form they provided me these items had a reserve of £80 and £150. When I pointed out before the auction they'd not listed some of my lots on the form they provided an updated pre-sales form but on this one the reserves were gone.
I've just been looking at their latest catalogue for their next auction in March so imagine my surprise when I see these vases listed again, however the one they originally listed at £80-£120 now has a guide price of £120-£150 and the others (previously at £150-£200) are yet to be priced. I haven't even been paid for these items yet!
Does this sound untoward?
The auction was back in January, they charge you £4 per lot plus 18% commission on sales + VAT, when an item sells you have to wait 6 weeks before they pay you.
Some of the items were 19th century Chinese vases, they had a guide price of £80-£120 and £150-£200 respectively. The former sold for £42 and the latter £70 which I guess is just the way the die falls, right? However on the original pre-sales form they provided me these items had a reserve of £80 and £150. When I pointed out before the auction they'd not listed some of my lots on the form they provided an updated pre-sales form but on this one the reserves were gone.
I've just been looking at their latest catalogue for their next auction in March so imagine my surprise when I see these vases listed again, however the one they originally listed at £80-£120 now has a guide price of £120-£150 and the others (previously at £150-£200) are yet to be priced. I haven't even been paid for these items yet!
Does this sound untoward?
Edited by Oakey on Friday 24th February 14:58
MDMA . said:
my cynical side says they have bought your goods. you'll end up with 25.73 + 50.08 and they will end up with stock worth 6 times as much. or that's how I work it out.
Yes, this was what I was thinking. Another example. Last auction was two weeks ago, one of my lots was a job lot (a box of pottery). It 'sold' for £5. So after fees and commission I'd be lucky to see 5p-10p. Not that I've been paid yet anyway.
Not only is that job lot now listed again in their upcoming auction under a different lot number for £10-£15 but they've used the exact same photo from when they listed it for me (it even has the original lot number sticker visible). So effectively, I'm paying them to 'buy' my stuff which they're immediately flipping.
I also watched the last auction live online through The Saleroom. A pair of Royal Crown Derby saucers I listed had a winning bid of £28 yet when I got my post-sales form they've listed it as sold for £10 and when I queried this with them they said they'd look into it and get back to me (they haven't).
Another item on the post-sales form was listed as 'unsold' yet I've seen it actually did sell.
The entire thing is leaving a sour taste in my mouth, their reviews are't promising either;
"They constantly miss Internet bids from the salesroom tending to sell to a room bidder often for less than what was bid on the Internet."
"Oh and yes the family buy a large chunk of goods from the auction which they fail to pay for, hence the massive cash flow problem and why they struggle to or will postpone your payment. Be warned, beware, be careful! "
"I recently took a valuable antique collection to their saleroom to be valued by them, I was told to leave the items and a valuer would get back to me in the next week as they needed to do 'further research', after 4 weeks of hearing nothing I called their offices to find they didn't have the items and they had sold them for £80 when the collection was worth £1000+, I made a formal complaint but have never received a response, reported them to the police!!! AVOID AT ALL COSTS!! RUN BY A BUNCH OF DELUSIONAL THIEVES!"
"Rip people off and steal their money. Lose their goods and don't pay up. Once they find the goods they keep them for themselves. Don't give staff a break and lie to them in order to get them to unwillingly lie to customers. Disgraceful people. Business should be shut down."
MDMA . said:
Try and get what's owed and move on. Seems to be a theme with them reading those reviews 
Does look like they are buying their own stock from the lots in the sale. Not good.
I still have items there, I'm thinking when they send the next pre sales form I'm going to point out the Chinese vases and say "you forgot to include these, these are mine too" and supply my photos of them (I photographed and inventoried everything before sending it to them). If they dispute it I'll question how it's possible someone could be selling items that belong to me, at a higher guide price than my own listing, when I've never received a penny for the items. Does look like they are buying their own stock from the lots in the sale. Not good.
You'd think there'd be some law against this? If I sell an item to a genuine bidder at a low price then you can accept that's just the way the dice fall, if that low bidder is in fact the auction house though, then it raises all sorts of questions. If they're in control of the sale then they can manipulate the final selling price. The auction room could have been empty for all I know!
techiedave said:
If it is Gerards my brother had some issues with them last year.
It couldn't be resolved amicably and it did involve visits to them
Go on, I'm listening. I've since spoken to a mate about the place in question, he says the owner is shady as fIt couldn't be resolved amicably and it did involve visits to them
k and has, in the past, pulled guns on people and had guns pulled on him (over gambling debts).I was speaking to one of their disgruntled ex-employees earlier, apparently 'forgetting' to include reserves is something that happens quite often.
Like I said earlier, I don't mind these things when they happen fair and square but not if I'm being taken for a mug and bent over for a reaming.
Like I said earlier, I don't mind these things when they happen fair and square but not if I'm being taken for a mug and bent over for a reaming.
There are just too many inconsistencies that makes it all seem shady.
I watched the auction live and made notes of the winning bids for each lot. One lot, A, ended with a winning bid of £10 on The Saleroom. The other, B, (pictured earlier) was 'Passed'.
When I got the post sales form it said A sold for £5 and B sold for £5. I queried this as well and was told lot A was split into two lots (A and B) and together they sold for £5 making up £10. This sounds like BS because they're clearly two separate lots.
That along with the discrepancy with the Royal Crown Derby plates that I saw go for £28 only to be told it was £10 stinks.
I watched the auction live and made notes of the winning bids for each lot. One lot, A, ended with a winning bid of £10 on The Saleroom. The other, B, (pictured earlier) was 'Passed'.
When I got the post sales form it said A sold for £5 and B sold for £5. I queried this as well and was told lot A was split into two lots (A and B) and together they sold for £5 making up £10. This sounds like BS because they're clearly two separate lots.
That along with the discrepancy with the Royal Crown Derby plates that I saw go for £28 only to be told it was £10 stinks.
Edited by Oakey on Tuesday 28th February 14:20
AdamIndy, do you have much experience of The Saleroom?
I'm looking back at the catalogue for the previous auction in Jan to check the hammer price for my lots that sold and all bar two of them are not showing up? The lot numbers just jump up massively. Would there be any particular reason for this?
I'm looking back at the catalogue for the previous auction in Jan to check the hammer price for my lots that sold and all bar two of them are not showing up? The lot numbers just jump up massively. Would there be any particular reason for this?
I don't know, I've been watching the auction and when items like that with a bid already on them comes up I've heard him say these are online bids and that's where the bidding then starts.
Also, I had someone else email them about those items and surprise surprise, they have reserves on them this time.
Also, I had someone else email them about those items and surprise surprise, they have reserves on them this time.
PhilboSE said:
Have you taken up the issue with the lack of reserve on your sale yet?
You are possibly reading too much into the sale price disparity from this sale to the previous; if there was someone out there who wanted them last time, they would have bought them. Sometimes it just goes that way; this time concession bids have already been received up to £160 (which means that there are at least 2 people interested).
You won't get any information from the AH now about who owns the vases - if they're legit then they won't reveal a third party and if they're crooked they won't reveal themselves! Your only course, in likelihood, is to chase them for the reserve price that they didn't apply and get your money.
Not yet, I'm planning to.You are possibly reading too much into the sale price disparity from this sale to the previous; if there was someone out there who wanted them last time, they would have bought them. Sometimes it just goes that way; this time concession bids have already been received up to £160 (which means that there are at least 2 people interested).
You won't get any information from the AH now about who owns the vases - if they're legit then they won't reveal a third party and if they're crooked they won't reveal themselves! Your only course, in likelihood, is to chase them for the reserve price that they didn't apply and get your money.
And you're right, the problem is those specific lots from the very first auction are not available to view on The Saleroom so I cannot see if they actually sold and whether the price they supposedly sold for is correct. By comparison, certain lots in Feb's auction that are showing as 'Passed' (unsold) on The Saleroom I've been told did actually sell. If they didn't sell during the auction then they must have sold after the auction ended which raises the question of who bought those lots. Was it a genuine buyer or did the AH just decide "yeah we'll have those" and pull a token figure out of their ass?
I can't prove it but what I suspect happens is the AH just 'buy' peoples lots for peanuts if they don't sell, e.g.
If I have 10 lots and they don't sell, I owe the AH £40 in lotting fees, they'd then have to invoice me for that money as per any other business.
Instead what I suspect happens is they say "yeah they sold for £5 each" for a total of £50 which after fees and commission that leaves you, the seller, about £1. Then they stick those items back in their auction for £10-£15 each until they sell, after all it costs them nothing.
I'm in the process of typing them an email but I've noticed something that seems a bit coincidental.
As I watched Feb's auction on The Saleroom I made a note of the items that sold and their hammer price and also which items didn't sell. As previously mentioned, there was then a number of discrepancies between my list and their list of items.
My list totaled £132 made up of 7 sold lots and 6 unsold lots.
Their list (the one with lower hammer prices and a number of unsold lots that apparently sold) totaled £129, consisting of 10 sold lots and 3 unsold lots.
That seems a bit convenient.
As I watched Feb's auction on The Saleroom I made a note of the items that sold and their hammer price and also which items didn't sell. As previously mentioned, there was then a number of discrepancies between my list and their list of items.
My list totaled £132 made up of 7 sold lots and 6 unsold lots.
Their list (the one with lower hammer prices and a number of unsold lots that apparently sold) totaled £129, consisting of 10 sold lots and 3 unsold lots.
That seems a bit convenient.
Edited by Oakey on Friday 3rd March 18:35
Good question, not sure yet. If they've acted fraudulently then that's surely a police matter? I only caught this discrepancy because I was watching the auction online and making notes, I did not have the foresight to do that for the very first auction which raises the question of what discrepancies may have occurred during that auction, I only have their word those lots sold for what they claim they did. How many other issues like this have occurred I wonder?
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