The weights vs cardio experiment

[pilchardthecat]

I thought i'd start this thread following on from my experiment which was inspired by this thread - where i've switched from a high-intensity cardio routine with a bit of weights that i've been doing for a number of years, to a full-on weightlifting split routine with minimal cardio (so far none at all).... whilst maintaining the same diet (to be precise, i've added a bit more protein, and dropped some carbs, the net calories haven't changed).

After 4 weeks I have put on just over 7lbs (162lbs to 169lbs)

Based on the caliper tests my body fat % has increased from 6.5% to 8.5% (the belt test confirms - my trousers are tighter ). I reckon of the 7lbs about 3.2lbs is muscle and 3.8lbs of fat.

I'm not surprised by this, but have decided to continue the experiment (it's fun, and i know that my BMR is up from 1720 to 1770 so i think it's too early to draw any actual conclusions)

My first question to the weightlifting gurus out there is this - is there a way i can re-introduce some cardio into my split routine in such a way that it doesn't set back the weight training process?

Is there any harm in doing say a 1 or 2 hour run immediately after training the chest? As long as it's afterwards i'm not depriving the lifting of any glycogen, and it doesn't occur during the rest period from training legs.

Edited by pilchardthecat on Thursday 17th May 18:01

[pilchardthecat]

interesting - i'm basing those numbers on the caliper test. So you are saying that switching to a weights regime from a cardio regime i should expect to put on less muscle mass and more fat? for the same calorie intake

could there be a disproportionate increase in muscle in the first few weeks - i'm not coming at this as a novice but from a shrunk-down-by-800-calories-a-day cardio routine

[pilchardthecat]

Chaz9950 said:

It all depends on what your end target is, as to get the best way to achieve your goal.

In the end, what do you want? Less BF? More muscle? More CV fitness?

The original purpose was to settle an argument over which exercise model was best for someone who wanted to lose fat (not me, just in general terms).

My experience has been that doing 80% high-intensity cardio + 20% full-body resistance training is better than, say a 3/4-day split bodybuilding routine. Lots of overweight people are told to stop jogging and start weight training because it burns more calories. My experiment was intended to see what would happen to me if i gave up cardio and followed a full-on bodybuilding routine whilst maintaining the same calorific intake

Obviously i gained weight, which means that i've burnt fewer calories than i would have doing my normal routine (rowing, eliptical, running, resistance circuits, etc). Based on my caliper tests i gained some fat, and i thought i'd gained a fair bit of muscle too (though opinion above is that 3lbs in 4 weeks is not possible).... So in my own mind i've settled the argument - if you can get good CV fitness and push yourself hard enough, you'll burn more fat doing cardio.

Having said that, I haven't gone long enough to see if the increased BMR has any effect, and also i'm really enjoying doing deadlifts and all that stuff .... so i'm going to carry on. However - i still want to maintain my CV fitness (which is very good) and not get fat.... so i suppose that's my goal now. Cake + eat it.

[pilchardthecat]

GBDG said:

The "experiment" isn't really proving anything.
...There is no way to burn as many calories doing weights as there is doing cardio. ...

I mostly agree, other than to say it's proving what i thought to be profoundly obvious, and which you also seem to think of as a simple fact......but many people don't accept the statement above - and the internet is full of advice telling overweight/undertrained/unfit people to forget about cardio and do a 3x1hour/week weightlifiting regime, because it "burns more calories"

HonestIago said:

....
There is a bunch of broscience out there about cardio hindering muscle gain etc but it is GARBAGE unless perhaps you are a 250lbs+ IFBB pro. When cutting you have to be slightly careful ie if fasted keep it to a moderate intensity and not for too long (say 1hr).

Interesting - this where my thoughts are heading. I'm thinking a 1 hour chest session on the weights followed by a 45 minute bike ride......

[pilchardthecat]

HonestIago said:

Out of interest what does a chest session look like for you? 45mins on bike afterwards is great if you don't get bored!

This week i did
- bench 4x8
- machine flys 3x10
- incline bench 4x7
- dumbell flys 4x8
- single dumbell front raise 3x10

I have some holiday to use up so i thought i'd take a few afternoons off and do some mega-cardio on top I've got to that age now where i have almost limitless endurance for cardio. I'd probably start running marathons but i over-pronate and running hurts (despite various orthotics/shoes)

[pilchardthecat]

GBDG said:

pilchardthecat said:

This week i did
- bench 4x8
- machine flys 3x10
- incline bench 4x7
- dumbell flys 4x8
- single dumbell front raise 3x10

Front raises are a shoulder exercise :S

Not if you have a single dunbell and hold it out with both hands, palms in. It hits my pecs more than the bench to be honest - although my bench technique isn't great!

[pilchardthecat]

HonestIago said:

If your intensity/work ethic is there that is PLENTY volume for chest. Sorry if that's unwelcome advice!

all advice is welcome

I am gradually moving towards the heavier/fewer reps approach, though it is difficult psychologically. Will it set me back doing 5 exercises per muscle group?

[pilchardthecat]

Ordinary_Chap said:

Cardio can be done but doing an hour of cardio after a heavy weights session isn't a good idea for the above reasons.

From what I can see it seems you are confused about what you are trying to achieve, most folk have to gain some fat to also gain some muscle, now I'm not saying you've got to balloon but trying to lose weight whilst gaining muscle isn't likely to get you anything other than disappointment.

For most comes the realisation you will need to gain some element of fat to gain muscle if you are not chemically enhanced otherwise gaining muscle may either be a exceptionally slow process if you do actually achieve anything at all.

Interesting....

"Recent studies have highlighted the importance of consuming different nutrients in varying quantities before or after resistance training."

Can't one simply drink the shake 30 minutes prior to training? and thus negate the negative effect to which you refer?
Or what if i chomp a protein bar and then hop on the bike?

I take your point though, i guess it is the holy grail

[pilchardthecat]

So I'm now at about week 10.

176lbs/80kg - up 7lbs in the last 6 weeks.... still in the same trousers but down a notch on the belt!

I've been doing deadlifts once a week and really enjoying them - up to 150kg for 3 or 4 reps, then doing 130kg for a couple of sets of 5 or 6. This has pretty much doubled in 6 weeks and my 1-rep-max is now 2xbodyweight

I've also started a 20-rep squat routine. I'm finding the compound exercises much more rewarding than the myriad machines for isolation etc.

Help! - my main problem is the squats - i can't seem to stop myself from either leaning forward or lifting my heels as i reach the bottom position. Leaning forward is bad as it hurts my lower back and lifting my heels is bad as it makes me unstable coming back up. This has prevented me from increasing the weight and i'm squatting well under half what i'm deadlifting now - 60kg for the 20 reps, barely

I'm properly addicted now!

[pilchardthecat]

LordGrover said:

Where do you place the bar, high or low? I'm guessing quite high... try lowering it a little and sink as though sitting. May be worth trying box squats to get a feel for how it should go.
Have you seen the Rippetoe vid?

I get it as low/far back as i can without hurting my shoulders holding it. I'm thinking the problem is actually that my hamstrings are too tight/short? I can't even get the form right with an empty bar!

Will watch the vid later

[pilchardthecat]

Part of my problem seems to have been resolved by not using the padded foam thingy that makes the bar more comfortable but also pushes it higher. Without the foam thing i had a much lower bar, and hence a straighter back. The only problem is that comfort is now the weight-limiting factor.

I definitely have stiff hamstrings/hip flexors though - it's been a while since i've tried this but straight-legged my finger tips are 6" short of the floor. Must be getting old .... there was a time i could put my palms flat

Several months of stretching ahead i reckon

[pilchardthecat]

LordGrover said:

That padding is the devil's work. Get used to the bar.

I shall.... good advice, thanks. Despite the fact that the bar is uncomfortable, my lower back wasn't hurting half as much.... a bit of stretching and i'll nail it i reckon

[pilchardthecat]

Halb said:

pilchardthecat said:

I shall.... good advice, thanks. Despite the fact that the bar is uncomfortable, my lower back wasn't hurting half as much.... a bit of stretching and i'll nail it i reckon

Have you read the article I posted?

Yes, very informative. I also watched a bunch of these http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/weight-training-...

I've done some overhead squats etc and concluded that I have severe ankle flexibility problems (calfs too short). Hence my determination to do various stretching exercises.

As the article suggests, hips are more complex but i think my hip problem (mobility+flexibility) is also a side effect if tight calfs/hamstrings - i can squat perfectly if i raise my heels 2" off the ground. If i keep my heels on the floor, i am forced to tip forward instead.

[pilchardthecat]

Halb said:

As the article said, heels can give you that stability, but won't correct the underlying issue.

Here are some mobility drills.
http://www.strengthcoach.com/public/1298.cfm

I myself have tight hams, but I can ATG squat as good as anyone with feet flat ion the floor.

Yes, i merely mention the heel raise thing as it confirms a diagnosis of tight calfs (according to the article).

[pilchardthecat]

Thought i'd update this as i haven't for ages, and i feel obliged to as over time i have very much changed my mind from the cardio-is-best mentality.

I've been deadlifting more than twice my bodyweight for a few months now (160kg), just about cracked full squat technique and am doing weighted dips/pullups/etc with 15-20kg strapped to me for 6-8 reps.

I did a "bulk" a few months back where i piled on the fat, but have now lost most of it again. The closest i get to the treadmill these days is a casual jog on an off day. Back at 9% bf and dropping

My conclusion - lift very heavy things much less often than you think you should, everything else is diet.