Body fat target.

[Eleven]

Yesterday I saw a nutritionist because I was concerned my diet was sub-optimal. I learned a lot but that's for later. Interestingly though, I need to eat more and do less cardio.

I had my %BF measured, it was 19. I have put on a bit of fat in the past fortnight, so usually I'd be a bit lower.

I am now trying to decide what my target should be. I am thinking 10% would be a good target with a realistic expectation of 12. Though these figures are somewhat arbitrary.

I am late forties by the way.

Thoughts?

[Eleven]

mcelliott said:

Eleven said:

Yesterday I saw a nutritionist because I was concerned my diet was sub-optimal. I learned a lot but that's for later. Interestingly though, I need to eat more and do less cardio.

I had my %BF measured, it was 19. I have put on a bit of fat in the past fortnight, so usually I'd be a bit lower.

I am now trying to decide what my target should be. I am thinking 10% would be a good target with a realistic expectation of 12. Though these figures are somewhat arbitrary.

I am late forties by the way.

Thoughts?

Ok this is my take on it - all in my opinion of course. My personal belief is that body fat measurements are usually pointless. In the gym that I work out, there are plenty of muscular guys that are probably carrying between 10 - 15% body fat, that look really good. Big, muscular, and with full muscle bellies. Then there are the other guys who are sub 10%, ripped abs, and very vascular but carry no discernible muscle mass, almost to the point of looking scrawny - basically look a bit crap. So, I see body fat measurements as almost irrelevant. I personally prefer to rely on what the mirror says. So my advice is to enjoy getting fit, whether it be in the gym or using the great outdoors for cardio, and don't get too hung up on the numbers.

Edited by mcelliott on Wednesday 30th April 19:48

I agree with you to some degree, hence my final comment about the figures being somewhat arbitrary.

The purpose of my visit was actually because I was struggling with hunger and an inability to train hard enough on my diet, but if I ate more I tended to gain fat swiftly.

However I need to some tangible measure of my physical status and BF is what I have targeted. Other suggestions welcome. How I look in the mirror is probably the least objective measure I can think of.

[Eleven]

tickious said:

How does cardio make you fat?

I don't think it does. The full message, though I await the written recommendations, seemed to be "eat more, do less cardio, do more weights, take commercial quantities of magnesium".

[Eleven]

nagsheadwarrior said:

Why do less cardiovascular? Surely it burns calories that are stored in fat?

You could still lift more as well?

I think I need to stop reading stuff on the Internet, it makes my head hurt!

I think it's a matter of time efficiency. I was already spending a morning going to the gym, training and returning. I think the proposal is that weights will be more useful than the cardio. I do also need to work for a living at some point! I still plan to run (injuries allowing) or cycle on days off.

I agree that too much reading can cause paralysis. One big reason I went to see this chap was that there is just SO MUCH conflicting information on the Internet about THE way to reduce body fat. I decided I needed to follow one line of advice, tailored to my requirement. I asked my physio to recommend a nutritionist and have ended up with this one.

[Eleven]

Westy Carl said:

It's your body / life, experiemnt with what works.

Speaking personally, sometimes I need external and objective input.

[Eleven]

Westy Carl said:

p.s. I would be wary of anyone who says eat more, less cardio, to loose body fat.

Well, let's see. It's not the first time I have heard it being recommended to people.

[Eleven]

dirty boy said:

Eleven said:

How I look in the mirror is probably the least objective measure I can think of.

That's a strange way to look at things. I know the phrase "what you can't measure you cannot control" is very important, but that is for control purposes only.

Unless you're trying to hit specific targets in terms of performance, numbers are largely irrelevant.

However, if you're lifting weights, then you'll want to log how much you're lifting, it's nice to keep lifting bigger!

I treat the mirror as importantly as any other measuring tool. I keep fit for aesthetic reasons, so if I turn side on and the belly is hanging over the jeans, I know i'm not happy, quite a simple but effective tool!

There are too many other factors that affect how one looks in the mirror, for example having eaten a big meal, water retention and state of mind. It's quite possible to look in the mirror and think you look fatter whilst not having gained any fat.

[Eleven]

Okay, so I have received the written recommendations for the next week. Keto diet cycling, 5 days keto with one evening of carbs, 100g of a paleo carb.

Magnesium loading, 2000mg per day.

I have also modified my gym regime from 5 exercises, split routine, performed as a circuit, followed by 45 minutes LISS cardio TO 8 exercises, 3 sets, no cardio. This wasn't a specific recommendation, but a suggestion in conversation.

I plan to try this chap for 3 months for nutrition advice and possibly some PT and see how awesome I am at the end.

[Eleven]

Hoofy said:

Paleo carb? Halal pork? Proactive reaction?

As opposed presumably to bread, pasta, biscuits which aren't.

[Eleven]

el stovey said:

Isn't this all false accuracy? You've decided to scientifically concentrate on body fat which the numbers are arbitrary and it's very difficult to measure in the first place?

As I have said (twice) %BF is somewhat arbitrary, but less so than other measures for example body weight. I don't think BF% is THAT difficult to calculate with the right tools, is it?

[Eleven]

MYOB said:

Eleven said:

As opposed presumably to bread, pasta, biscuits which aren't.

There's nothing wrong with carbs, good fuel for the body.

No one has said there is, have they?

[Eleven]

SickFish said:

Without trying to sound rude...... The plan he has outlined for you is over complicated and unnecessary with potential of you falling off the wagon quickly.

You say you want energy to lift weights? Keto is not optimal.... trust me... I CKD when I am cutting and sometimes I need to double dose on the pre-workout!

OP, would you mind posting your current stats.... weight and current BF please, if you would rather PM me please feel free

Keto is unnecessary if you are not already at 10-12% BF (IME) and not for the feint hearted.... has he explained the Keto induction phase???

How did they measure your BF%?

Also, why no cardio? LISS is crap (for optimal fat loss/ muscle retention), but certainly look into 2-3 sessions of HIIT a week.

It sounds like he has outlined a plan so complicated that you feel you *need* him..... you don't!

Edited by SickFish on Friday 2nd May 10:25

You aren't being rude, I am quite happy for constructive criticism and discussion. I also expected a torrent of "pah this is nonsense, I know better, you're a mug for listening to this crap" and once again the PH Massive has not disappointed!

What I would say is that I am doing this with my eyes open and I am as cynical as the next man. However, this chap was recommended by someone I trust and appears to know what he is doing. I intend to do exactly what he says for the duration of the program and will update this thread as I go along.

In answer to your questions: I am 13st 6lbs, 19.1%BF measured with callipers. I am, however, heavier and fatter at the moment than I have been for a few months!

The keto induction phase is no mystery, I've been through it many times and was on a keto diet when I started this.

The plan isn't complicated and I don't feel I "need" the guy. In fact his first recommendations were few, concise and simple to follow - which is good because I am not all that bright.

I would also add that a keto regime suits me, albeit that its effectiveness drops off and I find I look drawn after a while. This is in part why we're looking at a 5-day CKD.

[Eleven]

SickFish said:

What daily Kcal and macros are in your diet?

I have absolutely no idea, I have never worked it out. Which is another reason why I felt this chap could help, it will add some structure to my otherwise guesswork and rule of thumb regime.

There have been no specific recommendations regarding diet yet. I am keeping a food and exercise diary for ten days, which I will then give to him. He will, I suspect, tear it apart and I am sure that all alcohol will be on his hit list.

The 2000mg of magnesium per day is proving interesting. I feel slightly stimulated, but not in a bad way. I am also, oddly, looking a lot fresher in the face - I have noticed it and it has been commented upon.

[Eleven]

SickFish said:

19.1St = 121.2Kg

121kg - 19% BF = 98.05Kg LBM (15.44 Stone)

Hence the comment "if the BF% is accurate"

My original post was working on a 19.5 Stone weight for ease of numbers

Edited by SickFish on Friday 2nd May 15:23

"If the BF is accurate"

I guessed before the consultation that I was 20%, based upon the (probably hugely inaccurate) diagrams available online. The chap was very keen with the callipers and it wasn't entirely comfortable. He tested I think 11 points including under chin, jaw, back of arm, love handles, inside of thigh, front of thick, back of tricep plus others. The result was 19.1%.

I gather the location of fat can provide clues to how it got there.

[Eleven]

SickFish said:

Eleven said:

SickFish said:

19.1St = 121.2Kg

121kg - 19% BF = 98.05Kg LBM (15.44 Stone)

Hence the comment "if the BF% is accurate"

My original post was working on a 19.5 Stone weight for ease of numbers

Edited by SickFish on Friday 2nd May 15:23

"If the BF is accurate"

I guessed before the consultation that I was 20%, based upon the (probably hugely inaccurate) diagrams available online. The chap was very keen with the callipers and it wasn't entirely comfortable. He tested I think 11 points including under chin, jaw, back of arm, love handles, inside of thigh, front of thick, back of tricep plus others. The result was 19.1%.

I gather the location of fat can provide clues to how it got there.

If he tells you his thoughts on this I'd love to know..... me personally I am pre disposed to fat gain first on my lower back/ hips....

Everything I have read says that this is just down to genetic pre disposition and nothing to do with what you eat/ what you are doing. Otherwise spot fat reduction would be possible (you just stop doing/ eating what is causing the fat in certain areas)

Edited by SickFish on Friday 2nd May 15:58

We only touched upon it briefly, but if I recall correctly fat deposits on parts of the legs suggest high oestrogen levels or some such and there is a location (back maybe) that gives a clue to tolerance to carbs. As I say, we only touched on it and I don't want to misinform. I seem to recall that the locations were clues not definite indicators.

[Eleven]

SickFish said:

I've read some of these theories, however, I remain sceptical.

Me too, but lets see.

[Eleven]

Okay, so I have just got back from the 2nd consultation (14 days since the last).

Week 1's recommendations were essentially:

1. Load magnesium (2000mg / day).
2. Stop doing cardio.
3. Do longer weights sessions in sets rather than circuits and reduce rest time to 40 seconds between sets, keep muscles under tension at all times (harder than I thought).
4. Adopt a cycling ketogenic diet, 100g carbs one evening every 5 days.
5. Increase protein intake.

My body fat was 19.1%.

I have done all of the above.

I have been taking the magnesium in 300mg doses 5 times per day plus my multi vitamin. This is a lot of magnesium.

The negatives -

1. I have been buzzing at times and I have had no need for dietary fibre; even taken with food the magnesium has had a swift and dramatic effect.
2. My body weight has increased sharply (approx. 8lbs).

The positives -

1. After about 2 days I was looking significantly fresher in the face and my skin looked clearer.
2. My sleep has improved dramatically, it's now better than at any time in the last 10 years.
3. I am more energetic in the day.
4. I look a lot healthier and younger.

My body fat this morning was 16.9% and fat distribution is shifting.

I await the written stuff but basically I have another two weeks of high magnesium intake and a longer period between carb nights (7 days). No major food recommendations as yet. There are evidently changes to come, but other things to do first.

I remain agnostic regarding what the long-term benefits will be and I am certainly very wary about blind faith in someone who has yet to prove himself. All I will say is that having followed the initial simple advice I have noticed dramatic changes and, whilst the weight gain is alarming, some tangible benefits. I would seem to have benefitted significantly from magnesium loading.

[Eleven]

SickFish said:

All sounds good.

I can't say I am a great believer in all this new age "fat loss secrets" kind of stuff.

I like to keep it simple Kcal in < Kcal out

Then look at carb cycling when fat loss has stalled.

The simpler it is I find the easier it is to make it a lifestyle change, not a quick fix.

Either way OP, it looks like you are heading in the right direction Congrats and keep it up.

I am very much sceptical about "fat loss secrets" too. However, I have spent less time in the gym, feel better and if the callipers are to believed I've lost 2.2% body fat in 2 weeks.

It is not as simple as cals in vs cals out, had that been the case I would not now be seeing the chap. I was eating way less than I now am, was not losing fat; I was looking and feeling tired.

[Eleven]

SickFish said:

Sharp increase in body weight, I would assume "noob gainz brah!"

An increase in LBM will decrease BF% overall.

Coupled with a lose in subcutaneous water weight....

This will all lead to a lower BF read out

Edited by SickFish on Thursday 15th May 16:27

Basically, yes. The magnesium increases the water content between the muscle fibres, thus increasing the mass that isn't fat. So if the % body mass that isn't fat increases the % that is must decrease.

Which also explains the rapid weight gain - it's water. But it's in the muscle, not on top of it, so my appearance is that of being well nourished and healthy, whereas before I was looking more flabby and haggard.

[Eleven]

DuncanM said:

Hello,

Interesting thread so far, where are you getting your Magnesium because 2000mg a day seems a lot to me?

I am actually taking 2400mg this week. It's Poliquin magnesium glycinate.

The stuff has a very noticeable effects - I feel like I am on stimulants, yet my sleep is a LOT better. I also find that I need to visit the toilet more often and sometimes quite swiftly...

I am finding that I am quite sweaty, which I suspect is the magnesium.

I am also eating loads more. But I am making every meal high protein, snacks are protein too. If I had increased my intake like this a few weeks back I would now be lardy, but that has not happened.

Facially I am looking way fresher and not haggard. I am also looking more defined and large - which wasn't actually the purpose of the exercise. I have had a couple of people comment that I look like I have been hitting the gym more, whereas the opposite is true I am actually spending far less time in the gym. I look like my muscle is where I am holding water, not on top of it.

My body fat distribution seems to be changing too. My umbilical (lower belly) is a better covered, under arm has reduced. My face looks squarer, my neck / chin area is no flabbier despite my face looking better covered.

I have stopped weighing myself outside of visits to see the nutritionist, but I suspect I am heavier than before I started.

My carb night has been extended to every seven days. I am allowed some carbs with my evening meal and a dessert as a treat. I had lemon tart and clotted cream last week, it was superb.

I haven't been very good at staying off the booze at weekends. I am trying to stick to G&T but boy is it boring. Wine with dinner is unavoidable at weekends.

I am not sure where all this is going, but I look and feel way better. I don't feel hungry all the time as I previously did. It will be interesting to see whether I can get down to a good BF percentage without feeling hungry.

I started at 19.1% and need probably to define a target. In accordance with my PH username, and somewhat arbitrarily, I am going to say 11%.