High fat diets - anyone else do them?

[oldbanger]

I generally follow a moderate carb, paleo(ish) lifestyle which won't make me gain (much). However, I know from experience that I only reliably lose weight if I get fat up to the 60% calorie intake range and carbs below 15% (ideally below 20g per day). If I incorporate intermittent fasting then I get a bit more leeway, but not much.

Aside from the fact that I get told I will drop dead from doing this, it's a pretty anti-social way to eat, especially if on a budget. I would eat Steak/salmon salad every day but finances allow for nothing like that. I can't do casein so can't bulk fat intake with cream etc. I find I wind up living off eggs, bacon, tinned mackerel and lettuce when dieting, for convenience. However, it's boring and I know from experience that I come across as some kind of food weirdo.

I don't drink alcohol, don't smoke. I can't get to the gym and couldn't afford it right now anyway. Whilst I can get out for an occasional swim, my main forms of exercise are walking and housework. My new office is in a tower block so I am now taking the stairs to the top every lunchtime.

What I would be interested in is whether anyone else does high fat/ketogenic and what you do, especially what non-dairy options you use.

[oldbanger]

Thank Mark, I'll look into it.

[oldbanger]

OK, I have now discovered bulletproof coffee. What an amazing concoction and hopefully the answer to the problem of getting more fat into my diet.

[oldbanger]

Jefferson Steelflex said:

I would advocate moderate fat, moderate protein and low-ish carb, something like 40/40/20, the the key is your calorie count really.

From my experience of cutting carbs, the lack of stting is a literal pain in the arse.

If you go high fat, that isn't a problem at all. Believe me!

That kind of ratio would have me gaining steadily, unfortunately.

[oldbanger]

Talking about ratios I started looking at this because I've been in a very long stall (I am noticeably slimmer but the scales have hardly moved at all since the start of Jan)

If I am aiming for a 70%+ fat diet, it appears I have been at least 40g over on protein every day and at least 80g under on fat! I can't see a solution other than sticking extra coconut oil or butter into absolutely everything. Most other fatty options either come with lots of protein (ie meat) or hidden carbs (processed sausage/coconut yoghurt). I have a dairy (casein) allergy so whilst I do take a bit of butter I am wary of going overboard.

[oldbanger]

I find nuts quite difficult to be honest as they're still very carby. I am dairy free but have found CoYo coconut yoghurts which aren't as full of starchy thickeners as other dairy free desserts, and have no added sugar. However a small tub (125g) will set me back £2 and still contains about 5g carbs thanks to the addition of starch

[oldbanger]

AlexC1981 said:

Sorry I missed your note (twice!) about the casein/dairy allergy. Surely a diet that strict containing no dairy and very limited carbs is not going to be sustainable for any length of time? You must be missing out on a lot of nutrients.

Maybe try avocado? Only 8.5% carbs. Pecans are only 14% and are one of my favourite foods. My healthy (& non-dairy) treat food whilst dieting; 85% dark chocolate is 17% carb.

Have a look here:

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/nuts

I am not sure what nutrients I am missing by avoiding dairy products and trying to reduce extra/hidden carbs from nuts, chocolate, diary subsitutes etc.

Assuming no hidden carbs in processed meats, nuts etc, 20g of carb per day equates to something like this, for example

50g fresh spinach (2.8g)
1 medium tomato (4.9g)
50g cucumber (1.8g)
50g olives (3g)
100g cauliflower (5g)
5 asparagus spears (2.5g)

I have no problems getting enough veg, the issue is that many things like nuts or avocado, even salmon, are described as high fat, when in reality they really aren't, not for the purposes of an 70-80% fat diet. So whilst I can eat them for their protein or carbs (and vitamins/minerals), they are not going to help me get my fat ratio up very much.

So far the only things I've found other than very fatty cuts of meat (but I've still got to watch protein intake), and just eating/drinking butter and coconut oil, are coconut yoghurt and processed pork sausage, both of which have added starches so have the unfortunate trade off that I have to reduce vegetable intake to compensate. Eggs are great, but actually contain a little carbohydrate, which needs to be offset the same.

It might be that given I can't take cream, cheese etc, that I just have to get the extra fat via butter, olive oil and coconut oil, but I have been wondering if there was anything else. I have been considering pemmican (basically beef tallow cake) but it seems like a complete and utter faff to be honest, especially without a proper dehydrator.

[oldbanger]

joshcowin said:

I am exactly the same, to loose weight my carbs must be under 40g per day.

I bulk buy chicken, I eat a lot of cod in the evenings usually with chorizo.

To make nice sauces wizz up spinach and ground almonds add chillies and spices to taste!

Ground turkey is great to make meatballs from its 7% fat

I love chorizo, but unfortunately a lot of preserved meat has milk protein in it. Argh!

[oldbanger]

joshcowin said:

What are you doing for fibre intake? I struggle to get any decent amount in!

Green veg and salad

[oldbanger]

AlexC1981 said:

oldbanger said:

I am not sure what nutrients I am missing by avoiding dairy products and trying to reduce extra/hidden carbs from nuts, chocolate, diary subsitutes etc.

Assuming no hidden carbs in processed meats, nuts etc, 20g of carb per day equates to something like this, for example

50g fresh spinach (2.8g)
1 medium tomato (4.9g)
50g cucumber (1.8g)
50g olives (3g)
100g cauliflower (5g)
5 asparagus spears (2.5g)

I have no problems getting enough veg, the issue is that many things like nuts or avocado, even salmon, are described as high fat, when in reality they really aren't, not for the purposes of an 70-80% fat diet. So whilst I can eat them for their protein or carbs (and vitamins/minerals), they are not going to help me get my fat ratio up very much.

So far the only things I've found other than very fatty cuts of meat (but I've still got to watch protein intake), and just eating/drinking butter and coconut oil, are coconut yoghurt and processed pork sausage, both of which have added starches so have the unfortunate trade off that I have to reduce vegetable intake to compensate. Eggs are great, but actually contain a little carbohydrate, which needs to be offset the same.

It might be that given I can't take cream, cheese etc, that I just have to get the extra fat via butter, olive oil and coconut oil, but I have been wondering if there was anything else. I have been considering pemmican (basically beef tallow cake) but it seems like a complete and utter faff to be honest, especially without a proper dehydrator.

I am no dietician, but using myfitnesspal the above veg + say 15 rashers of streaky bacon? Gives you:

Plenty vitamin A.
About half the daily recommended amount of vitamin C.
A quarter of the recommended amount of potassium.
A very small about of fibre.
Practically no iron.
Practically no calcium.

I suppose it's ok if you take supplements too. I take a vitamin+minerals supplement and an omega 3 capsule.

How many calories are you eating in total? The veg you listed above amounts to 106 calories. How much meat are you having with that? Even 15 rashers of streaky bacon would only be another 615 calories, plus dressing for the veg - 100 calories? That's only 821 calories a day. If you are only eating that much now, you are going to pile it on when you go back to normal eating.

Sorry if I sound like I am criticising, I only know what I have picked up online, but I find this a really interesting topic and I like to learn more about nutrition and what and how people eat.

I am getting around 1700-2000 calories per day.

I think what you've missed is that when I say high fat diet, I mean high fat diet. I mean at least 75% calories from fat. I am aiming for about 20g carbs, 85g protein, 150g+ fat.

I couldn't eat that much bacon. I love it, but it's quite salty. However, I eat quite a few eggs, I'd say on average 3 a day (some days more, some days less). I also regularly eat bone in fish (e.g. mackerel). I am definitely not short of calcium, in fast I stopped supplementing many years ago as I was worried about overdoing it. My nails are rock hard.

I do still supplement, but not regularly and only with vit D3 and magnesium.

If not intermittent fasting, a typical menu would be something like

Breakfast - Black coffee, butter and coconut oil smoothie (bulletproof coffee)
Lunch - Eggs with prosciutto, green salad and olives, with olive oil
Dinner - Fatty cut of meat, with green veg, extra butter

I am not going to go back to normal eating, by the way. I haven't touched pizza, bread or pasta for more than a decade. I ate some biscuits whilst drunk in 2013, and I still remember the experience. I will eventually go back to moderate carb either because I've actually lost what I want to, or I'm fed up of dieting.

Edited by oldbanger on Tuesday 7th February 23:55

[oldbanger]

AlexC1981 said:

oldbanger said:

I ate some biscuits whilst drunk in 2013, and I still remember the experience

Was it a good or bad experience?

Eating 1800 calories of meat, fat and veg must be very filling, if boring. As you are not doing much exercise, drop it to 1550 and you should lose a couple of pound a week and not go hungry. Has this not worked for you before... is that why you eat how you do?

I am teetotal now, it was that bad!

I have been on various low fat, low calorie diets since I was a kid, initially instigated by my parents. I have only ever lost weight through low carbing and now I am an old fart I seem to need to be stricter than before.

[oldbanger]

grumbledoak said:

Macadamia nuts are highest in fat but they are pricey.

Peanut butter isn't too bad - get one made only from peanuts and salt(*). 100g (about half a jar) of "meridian" is 46g fat for 12g carbs.

---

* i.e. what peanut butter should be made of, not the gloop based rubbish they try to fob us off with.

Thanks I had forgotten about macadamia nuts. They are lovely, if a bit hard on the teeth

Meridian makes a nice almond butter too

[oldbanger]

Interestingly, as I've increased the amount of saturated fats like butter and coconut oil, I am really going off vegetable oil. So much so that I've not been able to eat mayo and have even started to feel queasy going past fast food places.

I have a recipe for bacon fat mayo, but I never seem to have enough bacon fat to make a decent portion, and topping it up with chicken fat or olive oil have been total disasters.

I had noticed the aversion to vegetable oil (and it's smell) the first time I went strict low carb - and also how strongly sugar smells, though the awareness of sugar is something that's stayed with me ever since.

I am going to have to cut back on butter though - I can tolerate a bit but at probably 5 or 6 times my usual intake, I have developed arthritis in my right hand and the given my problems with dairy the most plausible cause of any inflammation right now would be the butter.

[oldbanger]

You produce glucose from a proportion of your protein intake (gluconeogenesis) and therefore high protein may not help some people at all - it depends how glucose intolerant you are.

Also as protein doesn't get stored by the body unless used for cell growth/repair, excess protein is broken down and excreted. High protein diets can therefore give you ammonia smelling BO

Edited by oldbanger on Friday 24th February 15:09

[oldbanger]

Shinobi said:

Three weeks in and I have more energy, 15 pounds down (only weighed 80kg so not a chunker) lifts in the gym are up due to the protein and I think I've been to the gym more as I have more energy when I get home.

Edited to add... I neglected to mention that I am impressed with the progress you've made. Top work.


Argh! I am 7lb down after 7 weeks, but was completely stalled for a lot of January. I started using a food diary/calculator and realised I'd let my carbs creep back up and my fat intake was still too low. I also have upped exercise quite a bit - I am training for the three peaks and weight loss alone, even if I succeed in losing 25% of my current body mass, isn't going get me through the experience, so I am hoping muscle gain has hidden some of the weight loss.

Edited by oldbanger on Friday 24th February 18:22

Edited by oldbanger on Friday 24th February 20:58

[oldbanger]

DuncanM said:

Do you guys not find it an utterly depressing way to live?


What about the health implications of being on such a high fat diet?

Keto, as a lifestyle, sounds hellishly miserable.

I don't find it depressing at all really. When first I started restricting carbs about 12 years ago I had loads of health issues, including terrible skin, insomnia, my hair was thinning, I had no energy, I had lots of sugar crashes and I constantly had digestive problems. These problems cleared up really quickly and return within a couple of days if I fall off the wagon properly.

The stricter I become the better I feel. I was intermittent fasting on a 20/4 daily cycle with moderate rather than low carb for 6 months at one point, and once I got past the initial 2 days of nausea, I found it fantastic for mental clarity and stopped feeling hungry in my off times. I have a thinking job and that matters massively.

Sure low carbing is difficult to fit in around feeding a family of 5 junk food addicts, which is part of the reason why I haven't been strict enough, but I don't want to fit in any more.

The only thing I really miss right now is curry. However I can still have some occasionally and will be able to indulge more regularly when the time comes.

[oldbanger]

Yipper said:

Yes, every diet always has a downside.

For high-fat, high-protein diets, they can eventually harm the kidneys and brain. The kidneys get protein-overload and become less and less efficient at processing waste. The brain gets carb-shortage, which leads to brain fog and can accelerate dementia.

Well I suspect that my brain is already made mostly of fat. Doomed I tell you.

[oldbanger]

DuncanM said:

Thank you for the reply, sounds like it's working for you

It just sounds like tip toeing through life. Don't get me wrong, I have gone moderately low carb in the past (Low GI diet), and it does feel good. The excessive buttering up your bacon, just sounds unhealthy.

Stop eating fruit and veg! (Carbs) - Said no Heart doctor ever.

My dinner tonight. Pork belly with pak choi, broccoli, basil, mushrooms, kale, peppers and aubergine

This was <10g carbs, so slightly less than half my daily carbs, by the way

Edited by oldbanger on Friday 24th February 21:01

[oldbanger]

Yipper said:

The brain gets carb-shortage, which leads to brain fog and can accelerate dementia.

Alzheimer's could be caused by excess sugar: new study finds 'molecular link'
Abnormally high blood sugar levels, or hyperglycaemia, is a well-known characteristic of diabetes and obesity, and it is already understood that diabetes patients have an increased risk of developing Alzheimer's, where abnormal proteins aggregate to form plaque and tangles in the brain.
Now, however, scientists have unravelled the specific molecular link between glucose and Alzheimer's disease, suggesting people who consumer a lot of sugar but are not diabetic are at increased risk.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/02/23/alzh...
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep42874

edited to add - the mechanism for how high blood sugar is likely to cause atherosclerosis has also recently been found - many previous studies have found a correlation between high insulin/blood sugar and atherosclerosis
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/1702...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/1702...

Edited by oldbanger on Wednesday 1st March 13:01

[oldbanger]

Shinobi said:

Possibly the answer for Gout also

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/316111.ph...

That's interesting as high fructose consumption also correlates with gout
e.g. http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/6/10/e013191.full
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC45787...