Arghh Cutting! Not working well for me

[stargazer30]

Okay lets get the rant out the way first.
[RANT] Cutting sucks, I mean really sucks ass. That book Bigger Leaner Stronger, the bit where it says you can eat healthy and still enjoy your food.... Utter bks, it will make you hate life and hate eating. You cannot, simply cannot hit cutting fat, protein and carb macros on clean foods and have anything remotely like what you like, ever. Any remotely nice/naughty food will screw up your fat macro, wack the cals up and you won't hit on the protein! And breathe.... [/RANT]

Right, anyway. I'm 4 weeks in of this hell. Have tracked on MFP religiously, no alcohol at all, 90% clean foods, sticking to macros 190P, 190C, 43F and about 1900-1950 calories on average per day. Current stats 39 year old male, 183lbs, 23%BF. My weight is dropping about 1 to 2 lbs a week but my body fat is simply not. I check both 3 times a week and best I can figure I am loosing lean mass and weight roughly at a 1:1 ratio. Gym 3 times a week, mostly compound based on the Bigger Leaner Stronger routine. Karate twice a week for cardio. Gym lifts are not going down thankfully but its getting painfully hard, especially legs.

Any ideas where I'm going wrong here?

PS looking at the sample pics on the net, I don't look 23% BF in the mirror, more like 20 or slightly less. Maybe wishful thinking.

Edited by stargazer30 on Wednesday 15th February 08:48

Edited by stargazer30 on Wednesday 15th February 20:39

[stargazer30]

PurpleAki said:

I thought this was someone self harming not a whiny dieter.

I'm getting near that point! Plus this makes dieting look like child's play.

[stargazer30]

chris_c201 said:

Anyway, if you're following macros (40/40/20 by my calculations) and eating clean, lifting well, then i'd question the measurements. How are you measuring BF? Have you done tape measurements?

I have a over priced set of scales that measure weight and BF% using sensors on your feet and hands. I've heard any scales that measure BF% are not accurate but I was hoping them to be consistent at least, ie number maybe high but as long as its going down all is well.

For a laugh we tried them out on my best mate who is a genetic mutant. He doesn't lift, can eat crap all day everyday and is skinny as a rake. They recon he is 20% BF which did make me laugh.

[stargazer30]

KamSandhu44 said:

Your fat intake looks rather low. Try dropping some carbs and protein in favour of fats. It should help.

I'm 35 183 pounds and about 24% BF, I cut on 137c 130p and 66f, 1662 cals. It sucks, but the higher fat helps.

From what I've read that protein looks too low for a cut. The science says you need to avoid loss of muscle by trying to stop your body breaking down that protein for energy, to do that stick to 1g or protein per lb of body weight. You find this macro split doesn't impact your lifts at all? How long is your cutting cycle? (I have another 6 weeks at least :-( )

EDIT: my Fat macro is one of the worst to hit. I tend to run over it 5g ish some days. Short of living on chicken, most meats/eggs or dairy tend to push the fat too high to get the protein in. Also finding low fat foods tend to be loaded with sugar instead which again is no good.

Edited by stargazer30 on Wednesday 15th February 09:00

Edited by stargazer30 on Wednesday 15th February 09:00

[stargazer30]

Pvapour said:

5:2 fasting

I dont have time to write the details (sorry, loads of info out there on it) but having been a competitive bodybuilder in my early days and been training for 30 years (47 - 13%bf - 210lb) it is by far the easiest way to drop fat and not lean mass, any routine or control over your diet and macros and your body will adapt, you need to shock your body.

Okay I downloaded the book on my kindle and read half of it this afternoon. I'm sold on it being a good way to lose weight but I can't see how it can work with lifting. Some of the claims in the book are big no's for lifters. Example - 0.8g of protein per KG (not lb) of body weight? Thats like 70g or something. Also claiming that lifting while fasting (and therefore with muscles depleated of glycogen) will still promote muscle gain? That's got to be wrong.

How have you adapted this diet for weight lifting? I am thinking stick to standard macro's and eat maintenance on 5 days. Do the 600 cal fast on 2 days and make sure they are not lifting days?

[stargazer30]

popeyewhite said:

Are you a bodybuilder or weightlifter OP? Because if you're not then you're on a weightloss diet, not a cut.

I'm a weight lifter. According to my stats I am Novice level. Call it cutting, call it dieting, whatever. I just want my BF % down as its high according to what I've read. I'd be happy if it were 15% not 22%. Its more for health than vanity really.

I'm thinking about having a go at 5:2 next week to try and break the plateau I'm seeing. My body does seem to have adjusted to my lower calorie intake as my weight loss is now slowing down to a stall too.

[stargazer30]

Well I started the 5:2 diet this week as, as expected, my weight loss and BF% had both stalled when I weighed in Monday AM. Did my first fast day Tuesday (it wasn't fun) and back in the gym for Chest and Tricep day today. My 5 rep bench press is down a bit this week, but to be expected I guess as I've been dieting/cutting whatever you want to call it for 4 weeks now. Every workout I have at least one heavy compound exercise for 3 sets and use these plus the strong app to see if strength is going up or down over time.

Will see what the scales and BF% says next Monday after a week of 5:2.

[stargazer30]

ORD said:

If you're trying to get lean, why are on Earth are you doing a bodybuilding split workout? Just do full body workouts every time. You're not nearly strong enough to need a split, and the full body workouts will sort out your testosterone and metabolism issues (if any).

I also would pursue some drastic fasting diet until you've tried more conventional means of losing fat.

Wrong on both accounts in my case. I did Strong lifts 5x5 for 6 months before I moved to a split. The reason was I was not able to recover fast enough for full body workouts anymore. I quit SL as heavy squats 3x a week were killing me and hitting all my other lifts. Mind you I did make very good gains on this program before it got too tough.

Normal dieting seems to work to a point then stalls for me, I think my body just adjusts and slows my metabolism down to match. Hence why I'm giving 5:2 a go. Don't know until you try right.

[stargazer30]

Early indicators seem to suggest 5:2 is working (but its not even been a week yet so it might just be co-incidence). Weight down slightly and 21.5% BF which is an all time low for me.

[stargazer30]

ORD said:

Then something is very wrong with your recovery - either sleep or nutrition. A guy who is still lifting relatively light weights should be able to recover from a full body workout in 48 hours.

Using a body part split at novice level is plain silly. You're not even close to the kind of weights where it starts to make sense.

I agree with Chris re squats. Heavy squats 3 x per week is a lot, so mix it up. But what does 'heavy' mean here? You may be lifting to close to your maxes. Only the last set or two should feel very hard.

I think it was the squats that did me in TBH. I tried all ways as I really wanted to keep on SL, I must have watched a dozen squat form vids, tried various stances, wide, thin, knees out, you name it. End result was always the same, +90K squat and my back gets fried. I tried doing a variant of SLs once I came off it. That was squats twice a week, then down to once a week by substituting leg press etc.. Still no joy. I gave up on squats completely about 2 months ago now. My back is slowly getting better. I have mild APT which I think just does me over for back squats, but the daft thing is I can deadlift fine. Currently my max 5 rep deadlift is 135kg and my back gives me no trouble the next day.

EDIT - to add. Squats were never a leg exercise for me. My legs are just warming up at 100kg. It always, always without fail felt like a lower back exercise and it was always my back that gave out before my legs. I need to leg press about 220kg for 5 reps on the 45D sled (150kg plates and 70ish machine weight) to give my legs a hammering.

Also re recovery. I am not aching for days or anything, but I find if I try the same compound lift more than once a week I don't progress, I get sore joints and my lifts go down. For example for bench I tried free bar one day and later that week smith bench with heavier weights to try and get my bench up and all it did was cause shoulder pain. Now I am back to free bar once a week, no pain and my bench is very slowly going up again, currently almost hitting 3 set of 5 reps at 70kg.

My diet has always been good, its probably better than most folks, I track my macros etc.. My only weak area would be sleep, I can't get more than 7 hours most days due to family/work etc..

Edited by stargazer30 on Friday 24th February 10:27

Edited by stargazer30 on Friday 24th February 10:30

[stargazer30]

ORD said:

If you don't hate squats, you're doing them wrongly!

I love squats they just seem to hate me

[stargazer30]

Revisting my thread...

About 4 weeks in on the 5:2 fast diet now. Half a stone off, BF% down from 22.3% to 20.2%, but the important part, no loss of strength on my lifts. I even managed to creep up a tiny bit on my bench and over head press.

When I started this I was kinda thinking eating only 600 cals the day after training is bound to have negative effects but so far, no problem.

Anyway have about another 3 weeks cutting then I'm done, if I can get down to 18% BF I'm happy.

[stargazer30]

ORD said:

You should read up on the 'yo-yo' effect that comes with using any extreme weight loss approach. It's pretty troubling stuff. I would have thought you should try simple calorie control first.

Its not exactly extreme weight loss. You still average maintenance calories over the space of the week still. The only difference is you load the feed days and only eat 600 on the fast days. Even then the fast is 12 hours so it not a starvation job. TBH I don't really notice the fast/hunger much now. Also my weight loss has been about 2lb a week so its well within the safe limits.

[stargazer30]

cliffe_mafia said:

stargazer30 said:

I love squats they just seem to hate me

My back ached doing squats and after watching this vid I now look down more and bend over at the top

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbNA17KjBzU&li...

It feels a lot comfier and I can feel that I'm keeping my back straighter (less rounding) than before. It might be worth a try for you.

I meant to post I'm squatting again too and ironically your link is how I fixed it. I had not been able to low bar squat in the past due to lack of shoulder flexibility but I am managing now, still painful on my shoulders/upper back as the bar digs in but I think they will get used to it. It does take much of the strain off my lower back though. I did 100kg low bar for the first time last week and my lower back was fine and my legs were just getting started. I'm going to slowly increase each week and see how I go.

[stargazer30]

Pvapour said:

Autopilot said:

stargazer30 said:

Its not exactly extreme weight loss. You still average maintenance calories over the space of the week still. The only difference is you load the feed days and only eat 600 on the fast days. Even then the fast is 12 hours so it not a starvation job. TBH I don't really notice the fast/hunger much now. Also my weight loss has been about 2lb a week so its well within the safe limits.

A few people I work with use fasting diets and say they get good results. I'm a little baffled by it to be honest as my mind tells me that if they just ate the same amount of calories across the same period of time without the fasting bit, then they'd get the same results - Calories In Vs Calories Out.

What does the fasting part do that assists with weight loss and has anybody tried both methods in controlled conditions to understand the real differences?

Short answer - when you deprive your body from its normal energy source - food - it uses your fat stores for energy instead (which were created from past excess calories you consumed)

Also it stops your body slowing your metabolism to match a regular cal intake. So if you eat 2000 cals but your body needs 2400, it works at first but after a week or so it has slowed things down a tad, you feel a bit colder etc.. and get by on 2000 just fine and its not really touching its fat stores, which it really doesn't want to do. Fasting, it can't adapt that fast, 2400 each day then 600? It has to burn fat.

Also there is some science (not sure how true this one is) that says growth hormone is linked to insulin levels. Insulin suppresses growth hormone (which is used to burn off the fat as well as build muscle). So by having a constant intake of food (ie eating regular meals) we suppress the need to burn fat.

The first one I buy totally, not convinced the 2nd part is true but to be fair it does seem to be working for me. Just did a 5 rep 105kg squat yesterday which is a PR.