The Best Tyre Pumps... in the World?

[Rhyolith]

Hello! I am new to this forum

I don't know much about cars (though I have owned a classic mini cooper recently ), however I like to do up old tools and machines as a casual hobby which often leads me into the car world

Was drawn here by an old post (http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=849746) which I think I can answer and may just be of interest.

To my knowledge there are no modern foot pumps made to a decent standard, least not compared to the likes this:

Duplex Kismet Master (Air Ministry 1944) by Rhyolith, on Flickr

Its an Kismet double stroke foot pump (one cylinder inside the other, so compresses the air twice) made for the air ministry in 1944 by William Turner and Bro. Ltd of Sheffield to pressurise pneumatic systems on aircraft such as Spitfires and Hurricanes. It can pump up to 300psi and is built like a tank, so will never ever brake if looked after (kept oiled).

I promise, once you have owned a working one of these you will not even be able to look at the offerings in halfords without cringing.

And if you don't feel like lugging round a heavy Kismet master, William Turner made many many more pumps, all of high quality, such as this cute thing:

Kismet Baby by Rhyolith, on Flickr

Hope thats of interest to someone

Edited by Rhyolith on Tuesday 25th October 17:04

[Rhyolith]

The Wookie said:

Neither will my leg

Lol But in all seriousness an 86 year old with bad knees had no problem using the Kismet Master. The modern crap is giving foot pumps a bad name as leg & ankle killers.

Now why would you have one of these brass pumps over a £20 (which is about what I payed for that WW2 Kismet master, so good comparison!) 12v electric pump? As well as the reasons above:

- It will last longer, much longer! An electric pump may last 5 years or 20+ maybe... The Kismet will last 100 years or 300+ probably
- Its faster (than a £20 electric pump)
- Can achieve higher pressure
- Works in the numerous situations where you have no electricity
- Can be used in the rain without risk of braking
- It better for the planet (not just because your not using electricity, but mainly becasue your not buying something that has been made in a dirty great factory in China and shipped across the world!)
- Its pretteir... duh!

You hit the only real disadvantage on the head... these things are typically between 70 - 100 years old, so you will be lucky to find one that does not need some love to bring into working condition. It typically takes me a couple of hours to take apart, clean, re-assemlbe and oil. Which 2 out 3 times is all that needs doing

If anyone wants to restore one this is agreat site: http://www.vintagepumps.co.uk/index.html

Edited by Rhyolith on Tuesday 25th October 17:06

Edited by Rhyolith on Tuesday 25th October 17:12

Edited by Rhyolith on Tuesday 25th October 22:26

[Rhyolith]

caelite said:

I paid £20 on a Michelin branded double barrel footpump, yes it may not work as well in 70 years but is a fantastic piece of kit when compared to a lot of the bargain basement single barrel ones.

Come back to me in 2 years, tell me if its still working perfectly... that frame looks so thin.

Personally I don't think its really fair to compare to 300psi Kismet master... maybe compare it to the Kismet Baby, which cost me £3:50

btw, Thanks for poestive reaction to the post everyone

[Rhyolith]

swisstoni said:

That pump at the top of the thread looks like a proper piece of gear. Won't try and dig itself into the ground either like most modern designs.

It really is proper! This is the main reason I bought it (the WW2 one was my first, first of many now (see below) ) was because it was sick of the modern crud being so... cruddy! Even purely from a "get the job done" point of view I would choose any of my brass pumps over a modern option... they are just better.

The Kismet Master at the top is actually meant to be mounted on a wooden board, apparently they were hung on their boards on the wall of airplane maintenance buildings (or wherever the tools were kept) during WW2. Your right though, even without the board it don't move anywhere you don't want it too.

cptsideways said:

Pretty sure my Grandad's one which is my mums garage still works fine & it got used lots by four boys all with lots of cars in the 70's 80's & 90's.

Might have to dig it out & give it a polish

Do it! The website I linked above has a lot of useful info on old pumps, particularly how to maintain them properly (vegetable really makes a difference to the performance!).

[Rhyolith]

foxsasha]I got tired of modern pumps failing after a short while so bought this: said:

Thats in good shape! I can never get enough of how good they look when they are clean.

David87 said:

I've broken pretty much all of the common foot pumps that are available. This one, however, is a cut above and is very well made. I have yet to destroy it.

Thats easily the best quality modern example I have seen (judging from the picture). The frame looks a decent thickness and are those double stroke cylinders (one inside the other)? 140psi is cute

The main thing is it looks like its not made to be taken apart so repair would be difficult, which is typical sales ploy to get you to buy another when it brakes. This is basically standard practice now and drive me nuts!

Something that I think is just another sales ploy two is this notion that 2 cylinder pumps are somehow better, I don't think they are. Two small cylinders are less efficient than one big one (double the friction), so it is not good for pumping capacity/speed. It is possible to use 2 cylinders for double compression, literally doubling the pressure (William Turner called this "Duplex" and it is what allows the Kismet Master to reach 300 PSI), however for this to work the cylinders should be one inside the other (see below) not separate... so again two separate cylinders are pointless.

---

You can see the "Duplex" Design here. Its the pump at the top taken apart.

The First cylinder is the big brass thing on the right, its compressed by the leather washer on the base of the next large brass part left. That second largest brass part is the second cylinder, it screws onto that part in the middle of the brass pipe on the next part left. The second cylinder is compressed by the leather washer in top of the same pipe. Hope that kinda makes sense, its hard to explain in words.

Kismet Master Duplex Air Ministry (dismantled) by Rhyolith, on Flickr

Edited by Rhyolith on Wednesday 26th October 11:57

Edited by Rhyolith on Wednesday 26th October 11:58

Edited by Rhyolith on Wednesday 26th October 11:59

Edited by Rhyolith on Wednesday 26th October 12:00

[Rhyolith]

PositronicRay said:

Looks great, where do get spare seals from?

You can buy them from here, but its quite expensive: http://www.vintagepumps.co.uk/index.html

It also says on there how to make your own on that site, which is actually really quite easy, as they are just leather discs. I used an old shoe for half the washers in another Kismet Master Now it works!

[Rhyolith]

GappySmeg said:

You've inspired me!

What with looking after multiple cars, motorbikes and pushbikes, I go through foot pumps... even those "Michelin" ones only last 6 months or so!

I will be buying and restoring one of those Kismet Master Duplex jobbers... nice little winter project

Great!

They are fun to restore, just try and get one with all the parts (mainly the connectors for the hose) as they are a pain to find. You shouldn't pay more than £20-30 for one in goodish nick, there are some sellers on eBay that charge £120... ignore those unless you know they have been properly restored (like the ones on the Vintage pumps site).

[Rhyolith]

Interesting a lot of people think track (or stirrup) pumps are better. When talking solely of the modern pumps with their cheap construction stirrup pumps probably are better due to their simplicity. However a properly made foot pump will be faster and capable of achieving higher pressures than a stirrup pump, so is in no way inferior.

I am actaully in the process of doing up a vintage Hattersley and Davidson Stirrup pump, it needs a lot of work but will post pictures when I am done. I think it has a duplex double stroke piston, in which case it will probably out perform modern track pumps in terms of max PSI.

[Rhyolith]

Jamesf288 said:

Plastic nozzles really get my goat . They are largely rendered useless after a few encounters with the valve. I currently favour a screw-cap closure, which so far negates the aforementioned plastic nonsense.

Kismet did those better too (un-surprisingly), look at this:
"Renrut" Universal Connector by Rhyolith, on Flickr

ExPat2B said:

A track pump is better as it has a much longer stroke, that is driven by every single primary muscle group in your body, compared to a foot pump driven by one leg.

Why would I care about max PSI ? utterly bemused by this, what on earth do I need that is improved by having a higher max PSI ?

Stirrup pumps often have a longer piston, but its also much narrower so does not necessary have a higher capacity within the cylinder. To know for sure someone would actually have to measure the volume of both.

I have used a lot of stirrup pumps in my time, including many expensive premium ones (not mine, someone i know has a lot of them). All of them pale when directly compared to my Kismet master in terms of ease of use in my opinion (not to mention build quality), with the only advantage being the weigh less. As I send before, and 86 year old woman with bad knees used the Kismet master and commented on how easy it was... can you say the same for these track pumps?

Using every muscle group in the body... that sounds excessive, if you needing to put in that much effort the pump is not efficient. One leg gently going up and down should be plenty enough power.

Don't get me wrong, I think stirrup pumps have their place, especially in the world of cycling where light weight pumps is are highly desriably. However I reject that they are better for everything and I supect those who think so have not actaully expierenced how good and proper foot pump is.

Why does fas pressure matter? Why have a car that will do 100mph when the fastest you ever need to go in 70mph, cause it will do 70mph with greater ease. Its basically the same reason, a 300psi Kismet with not struggle at 60-70psi for tyres where a stirrup pump designed to max at those pressures will. High maximum pressure is also a pretty good indication of the quality of the pump, only decent pumps can achieve really high pressures. I will agree 300psi is excessive for tyres, but this was a pump designed to pressurise pneumatics on airplanes

For day to day use (the pump that sits in my van) this is actually my pump of choice (mainly because its compact and has a inbuilt pressure gauge):
British Goodrich Wood Milne Patent Foot Pump by Rhyolith, on Flickr
dated: 1924-34

The Kismet master is the probably the "best" pump in terms of engineering, but its overkill for most things tyres i would love to get my hands on a Kismet junior, to my knowledge its just a smaller Kismet master (which would be amazing ).

Edited by Rhyolith on Tuesday 28th February 13:22

[Rhyolith]

On another note, air hoses are perishable items (rubber) so rarely last on any pump (though they should longer than 6 months!). The vintage pump site recommends using SAE J30 Fuel Hose as a replacement. You can get this from Halfords, eBay, anywhere really. The code is just the size of hose thats the most likely to fit most pumps; basically any fuel hose of appropriate size can be used to replace perished pump hoses

I got some with with braid (looks nicer) on from halfords an thats the hose on the Wood Milne pump above. The bigger challenge is finding decent connectors, I get the old ones where I can (the one on the Wood Milne is a "Sutty") but they are rare. If anyone knows a source of good quality modern connectors let me know please

Edited by Rhyolith on Thursday 27th October 11:56

Edited by Rhyolith on Thursday 27th October 12:01

[Rhyolith]

Orangecurry said:

... is a Sutty any good?

Yes. The Sutty "Golden Tornado" is a fairly common vintage pump that is one of the most practical I have come across (light, well made and has a gauge).It is not a pretty as the Kismets, but an excellent tool! Unfortunately mine has a nasty modern halfords brand hose and connector.
Sutty Golden Tornado by Rhyolith, on Flickr

yonex said:

A Halfords £7 job always served well, upgraded to a compressor and besides the benefit of air tools, pumping, ahem, is a thing of the past.

I have seen how fast a good compressor can inflate a tyre, no manual pump can even start to compete. However Compressors and large, heavy, expensive and require power... great for a workshop but not great to lug around or use out and about, they are different tools that both exist for a reason.

That shiny stirrup pump: O.O for the picture. However I have bought stuff with lovely images like that before and been disappointed, either in never looks like that or it does, but only for the first few years then it looks terrible (and often brakes at that point too).

Joe-2z6jw said:

Hi all,

So I'm reading through this thread and thinking that most of you think the same as me. Modern foot pumps all suck and are nasty pieces of tat.

My question is, if a pump was available, say a modern version of a Kismet, would any of you pay the premium for it? And more importantly, do you think anyone else would pay for it? I realise it's a slightly niche product though.

I don't know how much a Kismet would have sold for back in the day in todays money, but up to £100 for a fully restored one on ebay seems fair. But lets work with £70, +/- £20. Would you buy it?

I ask because I'm a design engineer and I'm fairy certain I could design one and at least get it on to KickStarter or some other crowd funding platform.

However, I'm also thinking that nowhere makes because no-one would be one.

Discuss!

PS, if there were interest, I would seriously consider making a high quality modern Kismet (or similar) equivalent and selling them.

This is an interesting point. I will try to find out come much these pumps actually cost in "the day". I imagine £100 or thereabouts (by todays money) is not a bad guess for something like the Kismet Duplex Master, however this was near the "top of the range" model. Something like the Kismet "Baby" probably cost a lot less.

Continuing on from that. One of the things I hate about the modern society is throw away consumer culture, we expect to get everything silly cheap and don't pay attention to the massive quality drop that results from this, not to mention the waste (going to wash over it here, but this is a really big deal)! People have essentially been brain washed by advertising to think that you can get good products cheaply, you can't. Everyone has forgotten that almost everything can be quite easily made to last a lifetime, being impressed by anything more than 2-3 years of service from most modern products.

Quality in these old pumps is not the only thing I am trying to advertise with this post, but also second hand things. Buying second hand has so many advantages and is one of the best things we can possibly do in terms of protecting the environment. Look at the pumps, you get a cheap, reliable and frankly beautiful product.

So would I buy a new kismet for £100... maybe in a few years if I get a bit wealthier But honestly this would mostly be out of curiosity. For functional purposes I would do "Kismet" a search on eBay but the cheapest one with all the parts and spend an afternoon doing it up Cost me £10-30 and I get something that works perfectly, in know exactly how to maintain and thus lasts me forever (not mention makes a excellent talking piece!).

vikingaero said:

I do and don't agree with you Toni.

Kismet pumps may be the dogs but I wouldn't want one in each of my cars because of cost and weight. Footpumps are pretty useless at home when you really need one. I just gave examples of decent modern alternatives and said that the cheapest one was better than the Michelin or Halfords one that everyone buys. I have 2 Michelin pumps - one on its last legs, but because of the Lidl ones I have one in each car and have also equipped my parents and siblings out as they are cheap. I did get strange looks in Lidl buying a dozen footpumps!

Cost and weight? Fair play in terms of weight with the Kismet master, which is a tank of a thing and generally costs around £20-30 second hand. But have you seen the Kismet Baby I posted at the top? It cost me £3.50 and is tiny! And why are foot pumps useless in the home?

---

I am mildly dyslexic so often need to go through a correct the mass of typos and wording errors, thats why so many edits

[Rhyolith]

silentbrown said:

Just stumbled on this : http://vintagepumps.co.uk/sales.html

Not you, is it, OP?

The concept of Concours condition footpumps is a new one on me!

No, not me. It is where I learnt a lot of what I know though, very useful site for restoring these things.

Never heard of the word "Concour" before!

[Rhyolith]

RicksAlfas said:

So, in need of a new foot pump and inspired by this thread, I am now in receipt of an ex Air Ministry Kismet Master.


I've done nothing more than unpack it and wipe it over with an oily rag.
I need to do some reading up, but it's a mighty beast that's for sure!

Fantastic! I am delighted the thread inspired you to do this, its exactly what I hoped it to do

It looks in good nick (think I was watching this same one on eBay!). Cool how the Air Mintry Logo is cast into the base! Not seen that before.

Take a look on the back of the cylinder, see if there is a date. Like this:

Air Ministry 1944 by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I cannot see any rust, so you should not have any problems getting the screws out hopefully... which is the most common problem I face when doing these up -_-

I would recommend giving the vintage foot pumps site a read, he basically tells you all you need to know on there: http://www.vintagepumps.co.uk/index.html

This might also be helpful:
Kismet Master Duplex Air Ministry (dismantled) by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I usually just take them apart (to the largest degree possible) clean everything (get rid of all the old oil and grease), replace any dodgy leather washers then re-assmeble. Once together I oil the cylinder with A LOT of cooking oil and the joints in the frame with generous amounts of 3 in 1. I find a rag soaked in 3 in 1 rubbed all over makes a good protective layer against future rust and looks nice without removing the "aged" look thats quite charming in these things

[Rhyolith]

So long as the base (the bit with the date on) was solidly attached to something, I found that could just unscrew it with my bare hands.

So if you detach the top of the cylinder from the frame, and remove the spring (make sure the pump is in the open position, or it will fly across the room at this point!). Put the base of the pump frame in a vice if you have one (or just have it fixed down to something) and twist the knurled bit of the cylinder, it undoes in the traditional direction (not a reverse thread or anything).

That part is usually fairly easy (rarely stuck), if your vice has metal jaws might be an idea to cover them over with some cloth or something to protect the pump.

[Rhyolith]

RicksAlfas said:

The only disappointment was that I discovered the outlet for the air was a crap plastic part, which left some of it's thread behind. I cleaned it out ok, but I need a metal replacement before I can use the pump. It needs a new air line too, but that was clear from day one.

You will be very lucky to find a replacement metal hose tail (think thats what they are called...). They are some old weird thread that does not exist anymore as far as I know, so the only way to get a new one is to:
1. Custom make one on a Lathe
2. Get a nylon/plastic one and force it in (which cuts the thread into it).
3. Try and find one second hand (good luck!).

Functionally, I don;t think there is anything wrong with the nylon ones.

RicksAlfas said:

I even found a suitable dispenser for the veg oil too.

It defiantly makes it a lot easier Heres mine:
"Enots" Red Oil Can by Rhyolith, on Flickr

RicksAlfas said:

The leather washers seemed to recover very well, so I'm hoping I don't need to replace them. I'm undecided whether to paint the frame or not. I found a few traces of Air Force blue, but whether I can get any modern metal paint in a suitable shade remains to be seen. First job though is to try and find a union for the air line. :thumb:

So long as the leather is not too brittle, should be fine. I find that they work best if they are quite soft. Its not hard to make new ones anyway.

I use fuel hose for airline, its cheap and seems to work quite well. The braided hose looks the most in keeping I think.

[Rhyolith]

RicksAlfas said:

1/8" BSP brass hose tail from my local compressed air specialist:

What... How?! You sure the threads are the same?

RicksAlfas said:

1 yard of braided fuel hose from the motor factors:



Apologies for the modern plastic connector, but it's all I've got at the moment. Used it for pumping up my winter tyres last night.
It's silky smooth and very quick. Really pleased with it.

Makes you realise just how bad the modern ones are, huh? Good job!

[Rhyolith]

Almost forgot, Ricks do you still need a picture of the catch on the Kismet master?

[Rhyolith]

RYH64E said:

I bought this one yesterday: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142172939998?ssPageName=... bid £70 so was pleased to get it for £31. Looks like there might be traces of blue paint on it so I wonder if it's another Air Ministry one? I wanted it because it looks like it's got the original hose fittings.

Thats a good grab! I didn't buy it becasue of the price... but I didn't see that it still had the in-line test valve, this is rare. Hope to see some nice pics of this later

Kismet Trolley Compressor! Ridiculously massive and heavy pump, capable of 500psi apparenlty. I have one, but its broken beyound my ability to repair (at the moment), I am keeping my eye out for one reasoanably priced and near enough for me to collect (or a seller willing to post).

I am busy tomorrow, will post a photo of that catch on sunday Ricks

[Rhyolith]

Heres the Catch, sorry I took so long!

Duplex Kismet Master Air Ministry 1944 (Catch) by Rhyolith, on Flickr
Duplex Kismet Master Air Ministry 1944 (Catch) by Rhyolith, on Flickr

I have created a group on Flickr for these pumps if anyone wants to share their photos that way
https://www.flickr.com/groups/3059145@N22/

[Rhyolith]

triggerh4ppy said:

Some of these look great but why has no one retrofitted a pressure gauge?? Surely its a bit finger in the air without one?

rovermorris999 said:

The challenge would be to find a pressure gauge worth fitting. The ones on modern pumps are usually way out in my experience.

Its surprisingly easy to get tyres to the right pressure just by guessing in my experience, particularly with a foot pump where you can feel the pressure. I don't think pressure gauges in general are that accurate, or at least thats the impression I get... I go by the inbuilt one on my Wood Milne Pump for car tyres:

BGR. Co. Ltd Leyland Pressure Gauge by Rhyolith, on Flickr

There are also the pocket gauges, these seem to have been the standard way of measuring tyre pressure around the era of the Kismets judging by the number of them about. They are meant for the test valves like on RYH64E's pump, many kismets have inbuilt test valves on the cylinder too (seems to be a later model thing). I don't know how accurate they are, I have a few including a large inline version made by Kismet (which is in need of some maintenance!).

WaD tyre pressure gauge by nasutushenri, on Flickr
(thanks to Henri Nasutus for this photo)

The new gauges don't fit the old pumps (that I know of), so its only worth looking at test valve fitting ones or inline. The main reason I don't go down this route is they are always made of ugly plastic... Though if someone has a source for new good quality inline pressure gauges or test valves, I would be interested

RYH64E said:

Handle?

Yes, just makes it easier to lift.

Great to see one with all the original hose bits, don't see it often! Those Renrut connectors are gold dust!

Its difficult to get detailed information about the history of these pumps. From what I know the RAF models don't generally have the information plate at the front so they can be hung up using that hole under it in the hangers (or whenever they kept the tools). They were screwed down to wooden boards hence the holes in the frame.

My guess is that is a civilian model or some other branch of the military, as they also used for army vehicles like lorries and cars. You may never know for sure.