Oil - It might not be what you think!!
Discussion
Hello,
My name is Guy and I work for an oil distribution specialist in the south west, which provides me with access to non public information regarding oil, but dont worry im not here to sell! as a car enthusiast myself and have read many entertaining and enlightening posts on this forum, I thought you might find this of interest.
Due to the court case in the states between Mobil and Castrol, you may not always be getting what you think you are so be careful, hydrocracked oils are not synthetics in the true sense of the word as they are molecularly converted petroleum oils, synthetics are not, they are built by chemists in laboratories "brick by brick" and are far superior.
Unfortunately, apart from in Germany, a manufacturer can label the inferior "hydrocracked" oils as synthetics and therefore the only true way of working out the quality is price although even this is not certain as there are some very expensive "hydrocracked" oils out there which are sold on their brand name, Castrol is a good example as they were the Company that Mobil took to court over the labelling issues.
Here is some more reading for those interested:
“HYDROCRACKED” (HC) or MOLECULARLY CONVERTED (MC) BASESTOCKS
There are many petroleum oils available on the market that are so pure and refined, they can now be passed off as synthetics.
They are not made from true synthetic basestocks (at least not in the way that synthetics have traditionally been defined), but they have so little in common with traditional
petroleum basestocks, it is really somewhat silly to classify them as petroleum oils.
Petroleum oil basestocks can be put through a super-extreme refining process called
“hydrocracking”. In some cases, as in the case of one particular name-brand "synthetic" oil, these highly refined petroleum basestocks can actually be termed and sold as "synthetic".
It is completely legal for lubricants manufacturers to label these oils as "synthetic".
These are extremely high performance petroleum basestocks, but they are not truly synthetic the way that most people understand the term and will not necessarily perform to the same level as a premium synthetic oil like PAO (poly alfa olefins) or Esters.
Hydrocracking involves changing the actual structure of many of the oil basestock molecules by breaking and fragmenting different molecular structures into far more stable ones. This results in a basestock which has far better thermal and oxidative stability as well as a better ability to maintain proper viscosity through a wide temperature range - when compared to a typical petroleum basestock.
Although contaminants are still present, and these are still petroleum basestocks, contamination is minimal and performance characteristics are high. This process also can turn a wider range of crude oil stock into well-performing petroleum lubricant basestocks.
TYPES OF SYNTHETIC BASESTOCKS
Synthetic basestocks are not all the same. There are few different chemical types that may be used as synthetic basestock fluids. There are only three that are seen commonly in automotive applications:
Polyalphaolefins (PAO's)
These are the most common synthetic basestocks used in the US and in Europe. In fact, many synthetics on the market use PAO basestocks exclusively. PAO's are also called synthesized hydrocarbons and contain absolutely no wax, metals, sulfur or phosphorous. Viscosity indexes for nearly all PAO's are around 150, and they have extremely low pour points (normally below –40 degrees F).
Although PAO's are also very thermally stable, there are a couple of drawbacks to using PAO basestocks. One drawback to using PAO's is that they are not as oxidatively stable as other synthetics. But, when properly additized, oxidative stability can be achieved.
Diesters
These synthetic basestocks offer many of the same benefits of PAO's but are more varied in structure. Therefore, their performance characteristics vary more than PAO's do. Nevertheless, if chosen carefully, diesters generally provide better pour points than PAO's
(about -60 to -80 degrees F) and are a little more oxidatively stable when properly additized.
Diesters also have very good inherent solvency characteristics which means that not only do they burn cleanly, they also clean out deposits left behind by other lubricants - even without the aid of detergency additives.
They do have one extra benefit though, they are surface-active (electrostatically attracted to metal surfaces), PAO’s are not “polar”, they are “inert”.
Polyolesters
Similar to diesters, but slightly more complex. Greater range of pour points and viscosity indexes than diesters, but some polyolester basestocks will outperform diesters with pour points as low as -90 degrees F and viscosity indexes as high as 160 (without VI additive improvers). They are also “polar”.
Other synthetic basestocks exist but are not nearly as widely used as those above - especially in automotive type applications. Most synthetics on the market will use a single PAO basestock combined with an adequate additive package to provide a medium quality synthetic lubricant. However, PAO basestocks are not all the same. Their final lubricating characteristics depend on the chemical reactions used to create them.
Premium quality synthetics will blend more than one "species" of PAO and/or will blend these PAO basestocks with a certain amount of diester or polyolester in order to create a basestock which combines all of the relative benefits of these different basestocks.
This requires a great deal of experience and expertise. As a result, such basestock blending is rare within the synthetic lubricants industry and only done by very experienced companies. In addition, although such blending creates extremely high quality synthetic oils, they don't come cheap. You get what you pay for!
If I can be of any help to you lot, if you have any oil related questions please ask.
Cheers
Guy
>>> Edited by opieoilman on Friday 10th September 13:29
My name is Guy and I work for an oil distribution specialist in the south west, which provides me with access to non public information regarding oil, but dont worry im not here to sell! as a car enthusiast myself and have read many entertaining and enlightening posts on this forum, I thought you might find this of interest.
Due to the court case in the states between Mobil and Castrol, you may not always be getting what you think you are so be careful, hydrocracked oils are not synthetics in the true sense of the word as they are molecularly converted petroleum oils, synthetics are not, they are built by chemists in laboratories "brick by brick" and are far superior.
Unfortunately, apart from in Germany, a manufacturer can label the inferior "hydrocracked" oils as synthetics and therefore the only true way of working out the quality is price although even this is not certain as there are some very expensive "hydrocracked" oils out there which are sold on their brand name, Castrol is a good example as they were the Company that Mobil took to court over the labelling issues.
Here is some more reading for those interested:
“HYDROCRACKED” (HC) or MOLECULARLY CONVERTED (MC) BASESTOCKS
There are many petroleum oils available on the market that are so pure and refined, they can now be passed off as synthetics.
They are not made from true synthetic basestocks (at least not in the way that synthetics have traditionally been defined), but they have so little in common with traditional
petroleum basestocks, it is really somewhat silly to classify them as petroleum oils.
Petroleum oil basestocks can be put through a super-extreme refining process called
“hydrocracking”. In some cases, as in the case of one particular name-brand "synthetic" oil, these highly refined petroleum basestocks can actually be termed and sold as "synthetic".
It is completely legal for lubricants manufacturers to label these oils as "synthetic".
These are extremely high performance petroleum basestocks, but they are not truly synthetic the way that most people understand the term and will not necessarily perform to the same level as a premium synthetic oil like PAO (poly alfa olefins) or Esters.
Hydrocracking involves changing the actual structure of many of the oil basestock molecules by breaking and fragmenting different molecular structures into far more stable ones. This results in a basestock which has far better thermal and oxidative stability as well as a better ability to maintain proper viscosity through a wide temperature range - when compared to a typical petroleum basestock.
Although contaminants are still present, and these are still petroleum basestocks, contamination is minimal and performance characteristics are high. This process also can turn a wider range of crude oil stock into well-performing petroleum lubricant basestocks.
TYPES OF SYNTHETIC BASESTOCKS
Synthetic basestocks are not all the same. There are few different chemical types that may be used as synthetic basestock fluids. There are only three that are seen commonly in automotive applications:
Polyalphaolefins (PAO's)
These are the most common synthetic basestocks used in the US and in Europe. In fact, many synthetics on the market use PAO basestocks exclusively. PAO's are also called synthesized hydrocarbons and contain absolutely no wax, metals, sulfur or phosphorous. Viscosity indexes for nearly all PAO's are around 150, and they have extremely low pour points (normally below –40 degrees F).
Although PAO's are also very thermally stable, there are a couple of drawbacks to using PAO basestocks. One drawback to using PAO's is that they are not as oxidatively stable as other synthetics. But, when properly additized, oxidative stability can be achieved.
Diesters
These synthetic basestocks offer many of the same benefits of PAO's but are more varied in structure. Therefore, their performance characteristics vary more than PAO's do. Nevertheless, if chosen carefully, diesters generally provide better pour points than PAO's
(about -60 to -80 degrees F) and are a little more oxidatively stable when properly additized.
Diesters also have very good inherent solvency characteristics which means that not only do they burn cleanly, they also clean out deposits left behind by other lubricants - even without the aid of detergency additives.
They do have one extra benefit though, they are surface-active (electrostatically attracted to metal surfaces), PAO’s are not “polar”, they are “inert”.
Polyolesters
Similar to diesters, but slightly more complex. Greater range of pour points and viscosity indexes than diesters, but some polyolester basestocks will outperform diesters with pour points as low as -90 degrees F and viscosity indexes as high as 160 (without VI additive improvers). They are also “polar”.
Other synthetic basestocks exist but are not nearly as widely used as those above - especially in automotive type applications. Most synthetics on the market will use a single PAO basestock combined with an adequate additive package to provide a medium quality synthetic lubricant. However, PAO basestocks are not all the same. Their final lubricating characteristics depend on the chemical reactions used to create them.
Premium quality synthetics will blend more than one "species" of PAO and/or will blend these PAO basestocks with a certain amount of diester or polyolester in order to create a basestock which combines all of the relative benefits of these different basestocks.
This requires a great deal of experience and expertise. As a result, such basestock blending is rare within the synthetic lubricants industry and only done by very experienced companies. In addition, although such blending creates extremely high quality synthetic oils, they don't come cheap. You get what you pay for!
If I can be of any help to you lot, if you have any oil related questions please ask.
Cheers
Guy
>>> Edited by opieoilman on Friday 10th September 13:29
Munter said:
WOW....thats a lot of info! Makes for interesting reading. Wonder if Ted could turn it into an artical or something.
One question. I've noticed 3 "types" of oil for sale. Normal (Castrol GTX), Semi-Synthetic, and Synthetic. You covered the Normal and Synthetic, is Semi-Synthetic a blend of the two of is it the type that you are making us aware might not be true Synthetic?
Cheers
Spot on! Semi synthetics are generally blends or hydrocracked mineral oils, however due to the court case some "synthetics" are hydrocracked mineral oils, remember Mobil took Castrol to court because Mobil pride them selves on making true PAO synthetics, then saying that some Castrol oils are true synthetics, its a merky world out there. A true Symnthetic will be a PAO like the Mobil 1 or ESTER based oil like the Silkolene Pro R pro S.
Cheers
Guy.
D_Mike said:
But presumably the starting materials for synthetic oils still come from crude oil. I suppose you could make your starting materials from synthesis gas but that would be a bit silly and taking things a bit far... I wouldn' thave thought it really matter where the "building blocks" for a synthetic oil comes from as long as they are purified a reasonable amount before they start synthesis (and I imagine they would use pur starting materials as they want a pure product).
No, synthetics are not made from crude oil base stocks.Synthetic basestock molecules are pure and of uniform size. This is because synthetic basestocks are designed from the ground up with the sole purpose of protecting your engine. Nothing is added if it does not significantly contribute to the lubricating ability of the oil.
In addition, in top-quality synthetics, no component is added which might be contaminated with any substance that might lessen the lubricating qualities of the oil. In other words, manufacturers of these premium synthetics implement very strict quality control measures to insure no contamination.
Not only that, synthetic basestocks are designed so that the molecules are of uniform size and weight. In addition, synthetic basestock molecules are short-chain molecules which are much more stable than the long-chain molecules that petroleum basestocks are made of. This significantly adds to the lubricating qualities and stability of the oil.
Cheers
Guy.
Mr2Mike said:
Loads of info on oil at www.bobistheoilguy.com/
Good site this one, however to make the most of it you need to be in America.
Cheers
Guy.
Mr E said:
Mr E said:
Most interesting.
And having just bought some 5W50 Valvoline fully synth, I'm beginnning to wonder what I've actually got.....
I am afraid its just a hydrocracked mineral oil.
A good one though.
Crap.
Might well not put it in when I service the car in a couple of weeks and stick with mobil 1 then.
Or d'you reckon it will be ok for a turbo lump?
What kind of car is it? and what do you use it for road use/track days etc?
I will give you some options.
Cheers.
Guy.
Mr2Mike said:
Mr E said:
Most interesting.
And having just bought some 5W50 Valvoline fully synth, I'm beginnning to wonder what I've actually got.....
I am afraid its just a hydrocracked mineral oil.
A good one though.
Cheers
Guy.
Hmm, been using this in the MR2 turbo since I had it. Changed every 3000 miles though so I suppose it should be ok.
Do you have any recommendation for a "real" synthetic oil for a reasonable price? (i.e. £35 for 4 litres is too much IMO).
Silkolene Pro S 10w-50 or 5w-40 ester based fully synthetic. It is good value for a top quality oil.
E-mail me and I can forward on to you some prices.
Cheers
Guy.
Fat Audi 80 said:
Thanks but I will still be using Casrol 10w60 in my turbocharged Audi S2! 
Cheers.
Steve.
Castrol 10w-60 is a very popular oil even though its only a hydrocracked mineral oil, however the Audi S2 requires an oil that meets the VW500.00 spec, all VW/AUDI engines do things by code. The Castrol RS 10w-60 does not meet this spec.
Cheers.
tuttle said:
Very interesting read thankyou.
I've always used Millers Oils(in a performance turbo car)-do I need to worry?
We have had a look at the Millers oils and have been unable to compare tech data against others as the data is not really available, they have a very strong following though that must account for something.
Cheers
Guy.
pesty said:
mmmm interesting.
I have a blue 25ltre container in my garage marked up as 5/40 fully synthetic beacuse if your in the vauxhall owners club you can get it at a really good price.
will that be a real synthetic? Do you know who makes the oil that vauxhall supply?
>> Edited by pesty on Wednesday 1st September 16:17
I cant think who makes the oil for Vauxhall at the moment, they will move to who ever gives them the best deal. This oil is fine for every day use in an every day car but for a performance car I would choose a properly branded oil for fear the oil has been produced to a cost.
Cheers.
Guy.
Mr E said:
We have had a look at the Millers oils and have been unable to compare tech data against others as the data is not really available, they have a very strong following though that must account for something.
Excellent advertising?
Maybe... or they make good oil.
Tech data sheets would confirm it one way or another.
mcflurry said:
Thanks for an informative post 
As my car is due to be serviced on Saturday, should I insist on Mobil 1 or do you have a shortlist of alternatives? Previously I have used Magatec, Mobil 1 or Valvoline as available.
Regards,
What kind of car is it? let me know and I will give you a few options. What is the car used for commuting, track fast road use etc and is it modded?
Cheers
Guy.
Imadreamer said:
I have 5 litres of Mobil 1 0-40 and 5 litres of Silkolene Pro S 10-50. Which one do you think would be best to go in the car tomorrow at its' service? The car is a chipped Seat Leon Cupra. It has the VAG 1.8T engine in in case you're not familiar with it.
Cheers
In your hand book it will give you a code for the oil to be used, it will be something like VW503.00 or VW503.01 and what bhp is it now its been chipped. let me know, however my gut feeling is it would be the 0w-40.
Cheers
Guy.
Imadreamer said:
In your hand book it will give you a code for the oil to be used, it will be something like VW503.00 or VW503.01 and what bhp is it now its been chipped. let me know, however my gut feeling is it would be the 0w-40.
Cheers
Guy.
It's an older model and the 503 specs weren't around when it was built. I think the handbook specifies the 500 or 502 spec I think which both the oils meet. The engine is now putting out about 215BHP (apporx. 30 BHP increase) and 245ft/lb (approx. 70 increase) of torque. I have used both of the oils in the past but just wondered which would be the best option. The engine also now has 60K miles on it but has a new turbo.
Ok in light of that info it would be the Silkolene Pro S 10w-50 every time, a full synthetic ester based oil that meets the VW500.00 spec ideal for modded turbo engines.
You are one of the few that already uses Silkolene Pro S how did you come accross it and how long have you been using it?
Cheers
Guy.
Imadreamer said:
I did a bit of research into oils a couple of years ago and the Silkolene looked like a good option, I couldn't find it anywhere though and so stuck to Mobil 1. At the Autosport show (I think) at the NEC a couple of years ago there was a company selling it. I bought some from them and used it in the car but they only supply it in cases of 4x 5 litre containers so is a little pricey. I went back to Mobil 1 as at the time I couldn't afford another case and with the Mobil 1 I get slightly better MPG and also thought that the winter protection would be slightly better.
I will go back to Silkolene though if you think it's the better oil?
For a modded turbo engine the silkolene is more appropriate if driven hard as the 10w-50 will provide better protection, The 0w-40 will provide you with better cold start protection however with our uk climate the gaines over the ester 10w-50 are marginal, the 10w-50 is more than adaquate. In my opinion it beats the Mobil because it is ester based the Mobil is PAO based. Silkolene if you can get hold of it, I can help you there, now works out cheaper than Mobil 1. Send me an e-mail and I will forward onto you some prices and you can compare for your self.
Cheers
Guy.
Imadreamer said:
I did a bit of research into oils a couple of years ago and the Silkolene looked like a good option, I couldn't find it anywhere though and so stuck to Mobil 1. At the Autosport show (I think) at the NEC a couple of years ago there was a company selling it. I bought some from them and used it in the car but they only supply it in cases of 4x 5 litre containers so is a little pricey. I went back to Mobil 1 as at the time I couldn't afford another case and with the Mobil 1 I get slightly better MPG and also thought that the winter protection would be slightly better.
I will go back to Silkolene though if you think it's the better oil?
For a modded turbo engine the silkolene is more appropriate if driven hard as the 10w-50 will provide better protection, The 0w-40 will provide you with better cold start protection however with our uk climate the gaines over the ester 10w-50 are marginal, the 10w-50 is more than adaquate. In my opinion it beats the Mobil because it is ester based the Mobil is PAO based. Silkolene if you can get hold of it, I can help you there, now works out cheaper than Mobil 1. Send me an e-mail and I will forward onto you some prices and you can compare for your self.
Cheers
Guy.
McFlurry
The smart car being a merc calls for an oil that meets the mercedes 229.1 or 229.3.
Fuchs Titan Super Syn SL 0w-30
Fuchs Titan Super Syn SL 5w-50 all year round.
Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 ester based. all year round.
Castrol Formula slx 0w-30
Mobil 1 0w-40 all year round.
Total Quartz 9000 5w-40 all year round.
You can go for any of these oils as they are all mercedes approved.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Guy.
The smart car being a merc calls for an oil that meets the mercedes 229.1 or 229.3.
Fuchs Titan Super Syn SL 0w-30
Fuchs Titan Super Syn SL 5w-50 all year round.
Silkolene Pro S 5w-40 ester based. all year round.
Castrol Formula slx 0w-30
Mobil 1 0w-40 all year round.
Total Quartz 9000 5w-40 all year round.
You can go for any of these oils as they are all mercedes approved.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Guy.
turbobloke said:
Always used Mobil 1 Motorsport (15/50 IIRC), but out of interest what do you make of the Halfords brand that claims to meet the standards of the higher-priced 'fully synthetics'? I'm not tempted to use it, just wondered.
Mobil 1 15w-50 is a good quality PAO synthetic, my worry with own brand is they are made to a cost.
Imagine, you walk into Tescos and you can buy pepsi or you can buy blue and white stripy economy cola, both made by the same people but one is made at a cost, the result is the pepsi taste good and the blue and white stripy is just drinkable yet both pass the tests for human consumption.
Hope this helps.
Guy.
gary_tholl said:
Cool thread! Thanks for the info Guy.
I've got another 'what should I use' question for you, sorry.
It's an early 80's Cosworth BDD Formula Atlantic race engine. 11.1:1 compression, will do 10k rpm, 220hp out of 1.6L, dry sumped.
It is going into a street/autocross car, so it will see some hard use.
Now, since it's from an era before synthetic oils, do I use what was recommended at the time, or a new synthetic?
I'm liking the sound of the Silkolene, but would like to hear from someone who knows what they're talking about!
Thanks,
Gary
Gary,
This is a unique one, I have passed it on to the Chief of the technical department for Silkolene, I will post his reply when I get it.
Cheers
Guy.
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