Is Vettel overrated?

[mattikake]

So, 3 races in, beaten by his "lesser" new team mate 2-1 in racing and quali, in SV's team.

I mean really, if DR starts beating SV you'd expect it to be mid-season onwards not straight away. It's also interesting how the radio excuses have started to fly with SV already - like DRS not working, when it clearly was... or maybe truly an intermittent fault but it didn't help DR when it came to the racing. Excuses are usually a good indicator of sore losership.

I haven't really rated Ricciardo as anyone particularly special in previous years in F1 or earlier formulae - not in that LH, FA, SV, KR league. Should I now be or should that league simply not include SV?

Discuss.

edit: btw, I am not a hater. I think SV is the soundest bloke on the grid with a great sense of humour. As a principled patriotic Brit, I've always maintained that he's such a difficult guy to not like.

Edited by mattikake on Sunday 6th April 19:00

[mattikake]

CocoUK said:

Crafty_ said:

No engine power issue reported during Bahrain race.

Best driver of the decade that went out in Q2 yesterday ? hmmmm.

I'm sure they played a radio-message where he complained of a lack of power - possibly shortly after the safety car period?

As for Q2 - his car was suffering from a down-shift issue which was upsetting the balance.

No power issues were reported by RBR. Could that have been the same DRS issue, which was either a very short-lived issue or didn't exist at all - you saw his DRS working as the commentators were talking about that claim.

And on analysing the quali the pundits commented that you could usually see a down-shift problem but they couldn't see anything visual.

To me they both have too much an aura of whinging than actual problems big enough to cause a big problem to pace, but who knows for sure?

[mattikake]

MGJohn said:

CocoUK said:

I've just had a quick hunt, his radio comments:

"My DRS is not working anymore."
and
"I'm really really slow in the straights. losing out a lot."

Your quite right - it can easily be filed under 'whinging', only data that we cannot see would tell the truth.

The same applies regarding his qualification 'issue', without data we, including the pundits, have no absolute certainty if it was causing an issue as he describes.

Stop talking logical sense. Poor form around these parts. Next you'll be suggesting the two Mercs sensibly stopped racing for the last three laps under orders. ... the very thought ....

Well having just watched the highlights and concentrated on what the rest of the field were doing, not just the Mercs, it could be that SV did have some genuine issues.

Still, DR was up with him before they hit, it's only when he was getting too close to SV that the problems were 'reported'...

[mattikake]

Interesting views.

Vettel kind of reminds me of Nelson Piquet Snr. Very fast, very consistent. Able to win at a canter when he had the car and team around him. Indeed most of both SV's and NP's race wins were boring dominating affairs where they ran off into the distance with a big car/setup advantage over the rest. Talent/luck/teamwork involved in achieving that and credit should be due where appropriate. But NP was perhaps not regarded as "the best" and slightly lacking in his race craft - his ability to battle or win from behind wasn't common. Dutch GP 1980 and Hungary 1986 perhaps the only notable races, although very good they were.

Both were worthy WDC's but never rated as the best in their time during the time or in hindsight on critical analysis. Also interesting that neither are/were popular with the fans. I guess part of that comes from the manner of their wins. The people prefer a battler.

Difficult to say exactly why NP is not highly rated. NP was able to soundly beat "good" teammates - occasional race winners like Patrese or maybe even out-perform Lauda as a rookie in the same car (a bad car and Niki was never the fastest in a bad car), but was ultimately beaten by higher calibre teammates like Mansell and Schumacher. NP still racked up 3 WDC's, a lot of wins and a lot of poles.

The best teammate Vettel has had is Webber - another Patrese - an occasional race-winner.

[mattikake]

leglessAlex said:

I have searched, and come up with nothing regarding Alonso or Hamilton saying they themselves are the best on the grid. I did find a lot of stuff about Alonso being voted as best driver in 2013, and him saying that it was nice to be recognised by ones peers, however he considers 2012 a slightly better year for him. Still, that was not what I was looking for

You didn't look very hard. Here's some links.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/15701489
http://www.planet-f1.com/driver/3213/8429976/Hamil...
http://www.racingfanatic.net/2013/01/hamilton-says...
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130117/f1/130119...
http://www.f1today.net/es/noticias/hamilton-alonso...
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/01/confident-al...

There were also many articles on skysports and BBC/F1 but these are not showing up on google searches, anyway I figured the first few links were enough. There were even features in driver TV interviews IIRC.

The Alonso:Hamilton mutual praise is pretty common knowledge to those who pay attention to their sport. While this was obviously backhanded mind games to play on Vettel and a dig at not having the best car, they've also been around long enough to genuinely decide for themselves who they think are the best drivers out there.

None of their teammates have ever pushed them as hard as they pushed each other...

[mattikake]

leglessAlex said:

mattikake said:

You didn't look very hard. Here's some links.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/15701489
http://www.planet-f1.com/driver/3213/8429976/Hamil...
http://www.racingfanatic.net/2013/01/hamilton-says...
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130117/f1/130119...
http://www.f1today.net/es/noticias/hamilton-alonso...
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/01/confident-al...

There were also many articles on skysports and BBC/F1 but these are not showing up on google searches, anyway I figured the first few links were enough. There were even features in driver TV interviews IIRC.

The Alonso:Hamilton mutual praise is pretty common knowledge to those who pay attention to their sport. While this was obviously backhanded mind games to play on Vettel and a dig at not having the best car, they've also been around long enough to genuinely decide for themselves who they think are the best drivers out there.

None of their teammates have ever pushed them as hard as they pushed each other...

I think you misunderstood me, possibly my fault for not being clear. Sorry.

In MGjohn's original post I took what he said to mean that Hamilton or Alonso were referring to themselves as the best drivers on the grid, not each other. If indeed MGjohn was referring to the Hamilton/Alonso love in then he has my apologies for misunderstanding, I did indeed know about this.

Edit: Having read MGjohns most recent post it appears he no longer wants to talk to me, however will I sleep at night I do not know. The apology still stands if the misunderstanding was indeed a misunderstanding.

Edited by leglessAlex on Thursday 10th April 22:29

Edited by leglessAlex on Thursday 10th April 22:29

Oh right ok. MGJohn said;

MGJohn said:

leglessAlex said:

Don't most of the grid consider Alonso or Hamilton to be the fastest and most talented out there at the moment?

Most of the grid possibly but, certainly Alonso and Hamilton do . Both have considered and even stated something on those lines when they were having less successful seasons than Vettel ... four of them in fact.....

If I was really cynical, the words Kidology or even Professional Jealously would come to mind. ...

I took this to mean that LH was saying FA is the best driver on the grid and FA was saying LH is the best driver on the grid, not that they both think they are themselves the best driver on the grid. And therefore a backhanded criticism of Vettel. Every driver thinks they are the best. That's the nature of winners. But what they may say is something else.

Hence his 'Kidology' point.

[mattikake]

Alfanatic said:

Vettel isn't overrated. Even now, four world titles on, the one thing I never see is someone saying that Vettel is great. It's hard enough to find anyone who will even say he's the best driver on the grid right now never mind an all time great. So no, he's not overrated, because where are all the people rating him so highly?

I would say he's the least rated four time champion in the history of the sport.

Hmmm nail on head methinks.

They're rarely so highly rated in their time, no?

Those drivers who are only tend to be the ones who blow away every teammate it seems...

[mattikake]

MGJohn said:

Exige77 said:

The point is he's done enough to win 4 WDC's but not enough to win the respect of many F1 followers.

To get respect at that level, you have to do something really special and maybe he hasn't done that yet.

Yeah, nothing special about 4 WDCs or a mere 2 ... ask Alonso.

Yeah but Alfanatic points out, Alonso has earned more respect post 2007 than he has in 2005/6 for lugging that Ferrari around and competing in a WDC in a car that probably had no right to. And this year he is already clearly beating Kimi in quali and in race. Consequently FA's talent in recent efforts has also bolstered Hamilton's due to the teammate battle in 2007.

One example of how out-performing people works is a MotoGP fan of mine. Bot really interested in F1 nor it's history, said to me in 2012 how he so "gets" Alonso's rating as he attempted to push for the WDC with a such consistent persistent points run in a car that was clearly inferior to the RBR.

One can't help feel that the LH-FA battle happened at the wrong end of their careers. How much would it seem like Prost-Senna, if FA and LH had spent their careers beating teammates and found themselves paired at McLaren in 2016 as another prove who's the best match-up.

If Vettel is out to prove his mettle then he needs to whip DR and out-perform his lesser car... and he aint...

Edited by mattikake on Saturday 12th April 11:40

Edited by mattikake on Saturday 12th April 11:41

[mattikake]

MGJohn said:

ash73 said:

Anything else is a subjective judgement of who is your "favourite", which is fine, and Mansell is at the top of that list for me, too.

Mansell my most favourite in recent decades but, not my all time favourite. He was a close, very close second to my all time favourite: J. Clark. Two hugely different driving styles but both always enjoyable to watch at their work even on a less successful day.

Wasn't Mansell endeared to so many because he was a charger, racer and an unlucky loser? He also pioneered/invented his own racing line and his own racing attitude - never say die. Or otherwise F1's greatest entertainer? A relative points scorer and multiple WDC winner he certainly was not.

Or rather IMO, not someone who is none of those things, like Vettel.

It didn't stop him being rated or rated less highly than those with more WDC's like Piquet.

Edited by mattikake on Saturday 12th April 20:03

[mattikake]

GCH said:

Melman Giraffe said:

Shall we rename the thread........



Can Vettel race?




No




Was he in the best car for the past 4 years




Yes




Thread closed

/end thread

This question has already been asked:-
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

So why change this thread to something already discussed? Being able to race and winning races are two different things.

[mattikake]

Hmm.. comfortably out-qualified by his teammate, in the wet, leaves me erring more toward "overrated" with each race, even though I originally voted "apparently".

No excuses this time though and quite humble about it.

Funny how performance wavers for some when the car isn't a world beater (meaning of course he now has to try 100% like the rest, than drive at 95% and beast the field mistake-free).

I blame the a$$-licking pundits mostly.

[mattikake]

IainT said:

Interesting discussion around why Seb is being outperformed by Daniel...

Looks like Seb's struggling to get to grips with the lower down-force this year but Daniel is more used to the lack and has adjusted better. That might account for some of the difference today but it looked like DR was substantially faster for the bulk of the race.

IMO this is a kop-out being spouted by the pundits to excuse their over-zealous loving of him in recent seasons. Neither driver has suggested either.

The job of a driver is to get the max out of the machinery regardless of the machinery. If they can't do this, then it only serves to highlight further failings, not viable excuses.

OTOH Maybe this tosh explains why Vettel could only manage a 1:44.0 in the downforceless reasonably priced car and Lewis could do a 1:42.9?

[mattikake]

A good read from Mark Hughes: http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/22058/9279295/ma...

While this all seems perfectly plausible, it still doesn't excuse that if he is so great, he'd adjust his style to suit the car:rules:tyre combination. Smacks of Schumi and traction control.

The best still get the best out of any car, because they adapt. We've seen Alonso and Hamilton win in all manner of cars and rules in every season, bar 1 for Alonso. There's a reason for that.

[mattikake]

oyster said:

All good except Alonso had a great car in 2007 and completely underperformed in it.

Completely underperformed in it? That's an interesting way of seeing it.

Given that Alonso has NEVER underperformed in any other car, could it be more likely that he was simply outperformed by his teammate instead?

(NB: Occam's Razor suggests this is a rhetorical question.)