More engine talk!
Discussion
I realise this is all posturing etc, but this did make me raise and eyebrow
how about letting teams choose? they can have either, and if they go V8, give them a lower min weight to make up for the extra fuel load and inferior engines.
(actually, rather they went back to the V10's, with the 8 speed boxes we now have they would be awesome!)
Niki_Lauda said:
Mercedes' team chairman, warned that bringing back the V8s would have other drastic consequences. "If V8 comes back," the F1 legend said, "Mercedes will be gone."
http://www.f1today.net/en/news/if-v8-engines-return-mercedes-will-be-gone--laudahow about letting teams choose? they can have either, and if they go V8, give them a lower min weight to make up for the extra fuel load and inferior engines.
(actually, rather they went back to the V10's, with the 8 speed boxes we now have they would be awesome!)
revrange said:
Surely the return of the V8 is the joke, why not run cosworths DFV and really save some money.
Merc & honda would quit.
The problem is Renault are behind and kicking up a fuss, the rules allow development but they want more because they are losing.
DFV's are far from cheap...Merc & honda would quit.
The problem is Renault are behind and kicking up a fuss, the rules allow development but they want more because they are losing.
if cost was the objective, pick an OEM off the shelf production engine, it's not like your struggling for choice, and the whole grid could be supplied for less than $1M easy.
Now, I (jokingly) suggested using LS7's (basically because they are up there in HP terms and really cheap/reliable), but there are Ferrari V8/V12's, Mclaren's own V8, VAG have V6/8/10/12's, Porsche have V8/10's, Toyota V6/8/10's, etc.
the marketing department could then make a big deal about it (like Merc did years ago with stock block indy engines).
Doink said:
Honda have an advantage in that they now know who's got what including Mercs split turbo and while they're not technically a competitor in F1 they're not bound by the engine freeze, you can bet they unbolted what they'd already thought of and started designing their own split turbo, I imagine they'll be the closest to Merc come next season
way too much is made from the split turbo, it's not the reason they have more power, it's more to do with packaging.Honda do have an advantage as they know what the goal posts are now, and will have some pretty decent data to work of, as well as not having to homologate their engine yet.
andyps said:
You may be right, but it could also be as simple as the fact they won't really know until the engine is installed in a McLaren and driven on a track so having the chance to make some modifications once they have learned from that would be very helpful for them.
I would put good money on Honda having got one in the back of a car some time ago, and with the running data they have from this years McLaren, they will have it in a dyno cell doing race simulations solidly.they have a massive advantage having the experience of McLarens running this year to know what the goal posts are, they will have seen the issues Renault and Ferrari have gone though as well as the stuff from Merc.
N0ddie said:
So we'd lose Merc and Honda if we reverted to the V8s.
I thought Renault pushed hard for these new engines to?
they didI thought Renault pushed hard for these new engines to?
stunning how all these big professional companies are so short sighted.
don't get me wrong, I was never a fan of the old V8's, they were stupid money too.
I would like to see the engine rules opened up to anything goes, with 2 basic rules:
1) XXX litres of race fuel (and appropriate flow limits)
2) teams pay a fixed cost of $XX for an engine deal (and this being small enough not to bankrupt them)
RYH64E said:
andyps said:
Like it or not, the sport needs manufacturers for engine supply.
I don't know why you keep trotting out this ridiculous line. Do you really think that the F1 teams need the manufacturers for engine supply? GP2 cars use a perfectly adequate 4l V8 supplied by Mecachrome, Cosworth are still out there, Ricardo is another option, Ferrari would be happy to use their own, and if necessary the teams could commission their own designs. Getting a supply of engines wouldn't be a problem.edited to add: If you think that F1 needs batteries, KERS, MGU-H, MGU-K, fuel flow restrictions, turbos, hybrid electrical motors etc then getting a supply of 'power units' might be difficult. On the other hand, if you think a normally aspirated V8 or V10 of about 3l capacity, with a 20,000 rpm limit, producing about 700bhp, is all that's required then that's not only easy to source is very cheap (in F1 terms anyway).
Gaz. said:
According to Jean Francois Caubet, who managed Renault’s F1 engine programme until he was sacked, Renault F1 spent €120 million a year on the V8 engines, half of which they clawed back through sales, so for Williams the cost has gone up a touch, from $18m per year for a Renault V8 to $24m for a Mercedes V6 and that assumes that RBR, Lotus, Williams & Caterham paid an equal amount. I thought Lotus had free Renault lumps and were RBR paying the full price to their technical partner? Assuming so takes Williams share of the Renault V8 lumps to $25m. The reducing amount of V8's eventually replaced the unlimited use V10's through cost.
In 2002 Sauber were paying Ferrari £10m, Arrows were paying Ford £13m- that was just over $20m at the time. In today's money Arrows engine deal is $26m.
humm... some interesting stuff in there...In 2002 Sauber were paying Ferrari £10m, Arrows were paying Ford £13m- that was just over $20m at the time. In today's money Arrows engine deal is $26m.
RE: Renault, although the team and engine maker were owned by Renault, I doubt the team got the engines free - it would have to be accounted for somewhere, ie, I very much doubt this was then loaded onto the customer teams.
Last thing I saw on current engine deals was the bit Joe did here:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/06/25/the-onom...
which if right, makes the V8's look expensive, although I would suggest when the engine freeze was applied, the costs must have tumbled as what was there to develop? (although that did not seem to stop Renault from memory!)
RemarkLima said:
Scuffers said:
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/06/25/the-onom...
which if right, makes the V8's look expensive, although I would suggest when the engine freeze was applied, the costs must have tumbled as what was there to develop? (although that did not seem to stop Renault from memory!)
Many products remain expensive despite being fully developed, it's just profit from that point on... I can't see why they would pass on the savings if they know that the teams could bear the cost surely? which if right, makes the V8's look expensive, although I would suggest when the engine freeze was applied, the costs must have tumbled as what was there to develop? (although that did not seem to stop Renault from memory!)
Hell, I would like to see them have a £1M PA engine contract, that would focus some minds..
people go on about trickle down to road cars, well, he's an idea, go back to how Rally rules used to work, you have to make 5,000 of them to take one racing, so they would have to use a road car engine as the basis, we might just get some really special road cars then!
Leithen said:
Which is not what we're talking about. With hybrids consisting of many different elements, making sure the formula for both Le Mans and F1 had some form of shared technology basis would improve supply possibilities for both. They don't have to be identical, far from it.
At the moment it's a mess, driven by the manufacturers. The chance of the FIA leading on something like this is of course close to zero. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
Right now LMP1 is arguably much more interesting than F1 - which is bonkers considering the commercial disparities.
Sorry but the 1.6 litre turbo standard engine is exactly what i was talking aboutAt the moment it's a mess, driven by the manufacturers. The chance of the FIA leading on something like this is of course close to zero. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.
Right now LMP1 is arguably much more interesting than F1 - which is bonkers considering the commercial disparities.
PW said:
“Yet, we have no choice but to spend most of our income on the engine, and the remaining 30 percent is by far not enough to construct, enter and run a team over a 20-race season."
Lotus - who recently announced a switch to themost expensive cheapest engine available. "No choice". 
corrected that for you, Renault are the most expensive, Merc the cheapest by all accounts.Lotus - who recently announced a switch to the
no matter what happens in the short term, I do not believe Renault have a long term future in F1 unless something dramatic changes.
their engine is crap, and the most expensive, and with Honda coming in, assuming they do not make a hash of it, no team is going to stick with an over-priced, under-powered option.
their engine is crap, and the most expensive, and with Honda coming in, assuming they do not make a hash of it, no team is going to stick with an over-priced, under-powered option.
Crafty_ said:
2 weeks ago he said they should go back to V8s, now its twin turbo V6s with a "standard energy recovery system" to reduce costs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30152777
So, wait, redesigning not only the engine to run twin turbos but all the packaging too, and changing the entire ERS ? Yep, sounds like it'll reduce costs
Renault must be deep in the hole on their engine for Horner to keep spouting random ideas like this and it would seem they are increasingly desperate to find any way to catch up.
they are...http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/30152777
So, wait, redesigning not only the engine to run twin turbos but all the packaging too, and changing the entire ERS ? Yep, sounds like it'll reduce costs
Renault must be deep in the hole on their engine for Horner to keep spouting random ideas like this and it would seem they are increasingly desperate to find any way to catch up.
the problem is that their MGU-H recovery system is s
t, this is why the Merc's are so good not only on power but fuel consumption too, they have the best MGU-H implementation by far.it's the same story at Ferrari just not to the same extent as Renault.
I was told that Merc are approaching to 100Kw out of their MGU-H setup and this is where they can get most of the extra HP from over the winter
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