2017 Engine

[RYH64E]

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns32494.html

Article said:

The specifications now say the new engine will be a 2.5 litre V6 or smaller, with one or two turbochargers producing "greater than" 870 horse power.

The engine will have no limits on revs, engine durability or fuel flow, freedom in the area of the exhaust and no hybrid power.

And no doubt a fraction of the cost of the current units, what's not to like (unless you're Mercedes)?

[RYH64E]

Gaz. said:

Merc, Honda, Renault & Ferrari won't like it as they aren't allowed to build one, and have spent enormous sums on their current projects. With this engine the series will become GP1 with a spec engine.

I'd prefer a spec engine that run at >20k rpm and lasted to the end of a race than the complicated, expensive hybrid bks we've got today. Anyway, the plan for the current engines is that they eventually approach equivalence through diminishing returns from development, if the concept lasts long enough there'll be very little difference between the Mercedes/Ferrari/Honda/Renault units.

[RYH64E]

Gaz. said:

I have a few questions:

What is the cost of the spec engine?
How can the FIA force this engine through the rulebook when the TWG & manufacturers need unanimous agreements?
Why a spec engine by one manufacturer that does not sell cars?

While I'm happy for an unlimited output unlimited life engine, this proposal will ensure that RBR and STR will finish 1-2-3-4 with team orders and No1 & No2 drivers every single weekend for 2017, 2018, 2019 & 2020 and F1 will go the way of WRC.

What would prevent McLaren, Sauber, Williams, Force India etc all opting for the cheaper, more powerful engine? If the FIA and CVC want to reduce the power of the manufacturers then a better, cheaper, non-manufacturer sourced engine would be a good way to do it, I think most fans would approve as well.

[RYH64E]

Gaz. said:

Where did I say they wouldn't?

It's unlikely to be A Red Bull, STR 1234 every weekend if other teams adopt the same engines.

[RYH64E]

London424 said:

Well exactly! So you don't think those two teams might be a bit annoyed that this cheap spec engine could be more powerful than the one set out in the regs that they HAVE to adhere to?

Unless they equalise (which as we've seen is basically impossible) you run the risk of all teams with either better engines than Merc and Ferrari or even further behind.

ETA: just realised it was RHXXX that I was originally questionning.

Edited by London424 on Thursday 19th November 12:35

As ever, I expect that there are underlying issues. The FIA and Bernie want the manufacturers, mainly Mercedes, to supply any team with their engines at a vastly subsidised rate. Refusing to supply Red Bull has ruffled a few feathers, and the cost of engines is causing problems for the smaller teams. I'd guess that if Mercedes back down, supplied Red Bull and slashed their prices, the issue of alternatives engines will fade away. There are many people, myself included, who don't really want to see the manufacturers in F1 at all (except Ferrari), so if Mercedes, Honda and Renault got really annoyed and pulled out, I suspect Bernie and others would be pleased.

[RYH64E]

Gaz. said:

RYH64E said:

As ever, I expect that there are underlying issues. The FIA and Bernie want the manufacturers, mainly Mercedes, to supply any team with their engines at a vastly subsidised rate. Refusing to supply Red Bull has ruffled a few feathers, and the cost of engines is causing problems for the smaller teams. I'd guess that if Mercedes back down, supplied Red Bull and slashed their prices, the issue of alternatives engines will fade away. There are many people, myself included, who don't really want to see the manufacturers in F1 at all (except Ferrari), so if Mercedes, Honda and Renault got really annoyed and pulled out, I suspect Bernie and others would be pleased.

Why should Ferrari, Mercedes, Reanult or Honda supply engines at a loss? If FOM want them to supply these engines at a loss then FOM should make up the difference.

Ferrari simply won't have someone else's engine in their car, nor would they be prepared to be 5 seconds off the pace alone with this 1.6T, nor would they give away $25m to three teams for the next 5 years, despite already subsidising Sauber & Manor.

I can't see Bernie being pleased at losing 8 cars off the grid but I bet the ACO are rubbing their hands together.

How do you define 'at a loss'? F1 for Mercedes is nothing mnore than a huge marketing exercise ultimately intended to help them sell more cars, the engine department isn't a profit centre intended to make money, it's just a part of the overall spend. If the FIA mandated that they make more engines and sell them cheap to other teams then the cost of F1 to Mercedes will obviously increase, but whether the overall deal still makes sense won't be determined by the cost of supplying such engines, it will depend upon whether there's a measurable impact on car sales.

F1 won't lose three teams by allowing a spec engine, Mercedes might pull out but if the costs come down another owner will pick up the pieces, maybe Brawn will come back and have another go... Ferrari won't go anywhere, they might huff and puff but they're there for the long term, and they're not particularly into hybrids anyway. Who knows, a return to proper, >20k rpm, unrestricted, racing engines might even rekindle fans interest in the sport, I'm certainly not the only person who detests the current power units.

[RYH64E]

Back on one of the engine threads people were questioning whether F1 teams would be able to get engines if the manufacturers were to take their bat home, I think that question has been answered. Cosworth, AER,Mecachrome and Ilmor could supply engines as independents (Cosworth have said no if it's just Red Bull, not if other teams were involved), and Ferrari I'm sure would still make their own. So F1 doesn't need the car manufacturers, they could easily obtain a supply of suitable engines if needed, maybe not this hybrid power unit nonsnense, but that's no loss imo.

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Scuffers said:

yes, BUT!

Problem is it costs money to develop any engine, and no commercial organisation is going to do this with the risk of the FIA moving the goal-posts half-way though your payback period - as in what they are doing now to the hybrid PU's.

Say Cosworth spent just £20M on development costs, how many years/engines would this need to be recovered over?

Ilmor, Mecachrome and AER appear to be interested even with manufacturer involvement, if the manufacturers left surely it would be a significantly more attractive proposition? Nobody is asking them to do it for free, £10m per team pr season would be significantly cheaper than the current engines, and that's still a lot of money.

[RYH64E]

Scuffers said:

yes, but what about the development costs?

are you suggesting they load the prices so that's paid off in year one?

How are they proposing to write of the development costs for the current engine? There's only one team interested so far.

If you cut out all the hybrid bks the development costs will be relatively modest in F1 terms, 800-900bhp and >20k rpm shouldn't be that expensive.

[RYH64E]

Gaz. said:

£10m? Oh a bargain. The current PU from Mercedes is 16.5 million euros - £11.6m.

What is £1.6m when teams are spending £80m a year?

As Williams said a few months ago, give me £80m and I will spend £80m.

Engines have always been expensive, the Ferrari V8 was £16m in 2007 for Torro Rosso:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/40593-f1-info-g...

Various reports suggest that current costs for 'power units' are in the range of $30m, about £20m.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns32538.html

What does F1 (F1, not the car manufacturers) need from an engine? Surely an engine that produces around 900 bhp, has a rev limit around 20,000rpm and makes a decent noise ticks the boxes for the majority of fans? Why should the smaller teams pay exhorbitant amounts of money just so that the car manufacturers can showcase largely irrelevant technology?

I really don't see the value to the sport of MGU(H), MGU(K), ERS, KERS, batteries, etc. None of these features add to the show, they don't improve the racing, and it's all invisible to the average fan. Surely all the average fan wants to see is good, close racing, regardless of whether the engines return 4mpg or 6mpg.